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Old October 1, 2010, 09:51 PM   #1
Newton24b
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Copper fouling

i cant take it anymore. I have an issue in a 30-30 using factory jacketed ammo. in the last 2 inches of barrel i have bad copper fouling. no matter what i use, hoppes 9 or hoppes elite, the copper is not touched.

i use outers rods and rod accessories. i do admit the plastic jags bend no matter when i do and shove the brass rod intothe rifiling. the brushes are even worse.

I am at frustration here, is there a cleaner that will actually work here? all ive used is remington and a few wincherster 170 gr hollow points.
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Old October 1, 2010, 10:11 PM   #2
LaserSpot
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Use this first on a bronze brush and/or a tight fitting patch: J-B® NON-EMBEDDING BORE CLEANING COMPOUND

Then use a strong copper solvent to remove any remaining copper.
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Old October 1, 2010, 10:15 PM   #3
4runnerman
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Try some Butches,clean it right out Hoppes is not real good for much, other than I have acuired a liking to the smell in a weird way
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Old October 1, 2010, 10:27 PM   #4
TXGunNut
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Any chance of a constricted bore, Newton?
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Old October 1, 2010, 10:52 PM   #5
hoghunting
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Try Wipe-Out, a foaming bore cleaner. Spray it in the barrel, let it sit overnight - doesn't contain ammonia, so it is safe - then patch it out the next day. No scrubbing, no trouble. I've used it for the last 5 years, and it is the best and easiest copper cleaner I have ever used.
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Old October 2, 2010, 08:06 AM   #6
7MMGUY
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The best copper solvent I have used is Barnes CR10. Soak the bore for ten minutes and scrub with a nylon brush not bronze. Follow this procedure with a patch coated with JB bore paste 5-6 passes down the bore. I should have mentioned to clean the bore to remove powder residue first.

Last edited by 7MMGUY; October 2, 2010 at 08:40 AM.
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Old October 2, 2010, 08:41 AM   #7
hooligan1
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There's a plethera, of info and products to be had,. TxGunNut, may have the 40.00 question (Barrel Constiction)?! It sounds more interesting than just another dirty bore!! I personally use three types, as they all have they're place, 1. G96,2. Shooters Coice, bore cleaner and copper remover, 3. Smith and Wesson Copper and Lead remover GEL. Good luck and happy shootin!!
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Old October 2, 2010, 09:59 AM   #8
TXGunNut
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Most of my copper fouling is closer to the chamber. Fouling close to the muzzle is a bit unusual, that's why I wondered about bore dimension. Guess it could also be a rough spot, worth a closer look once you get it clean.
I've moved up from CR-10 and Sweet's to the Wipeout foam hoghunting endorses and I'm not going back. Abrasives are something I can't get comfortable with for normal cleaning chores when Wipeout is so thorough and easy.
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Old October 2, 2010, 10:58 AM   #9
LaserSpot
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Quote:
Abrasives are something I can't get comfortable with for normal cleaning chores when Wipeout is so thorough and easy.
Ever use toothpaste when you brush your teeth? You will wear out your teeth before JB wears out a barrel.
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Old October 2, 2010, 01:50 PM   #10
Wildalaska
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We sell Wipe Out and use it here in the shop. It is the best copper remover I have EVER used since I picked up a gun 50 years ago.

WilditswhatweuseAlaska ™©2002-2010

Last edited by Wildalaska; October 2, 2010 at 01:56 PM.
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Old October 2, 2010, 03:06 PM   #11
Unclenick
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Newton24b,

TXGunNut likely hit the cause. Fouling that is heavier near the muzzle is unusual. If you slug the bore, I expect you will discover they cut a dovetail too fast or forced a dull cutter to do it (or both) and it indented the bore. This is annoyingly common with lever action rifles where you often have a sight dovetail and a magazine hanger dovetail cut.

Before you slug the bore, first get it clean. The foaming cleaners (there are at least two I recall trying) work very well. I have, however, settled on Boretech Eliminator myself. Read the reviews on Midway from others who, like myself, have tried about everything else ever made for bore cleaning. In addition to attacking copper faster than anything else I've tried (you can't use brass jags or rods with it because they turn the patches blue before they get through even a clean bore), it is non-toxic, virtually odorless, water-based so even corrosive priming residue is removed by it, and if left in the bore, is a rust inhibitor. They also make a copper-only product called Cu++, that I've heard is impressive.

The only thing I know of that will remove more copper weight per patch is KG-12, but it has a little ammonia in it (not odorless) and doesn't turn the copper green or blue, so you have no color indicator to tell you when you are done.

If you want to get fancier, you can get or borrow an Outer's Foul Out. This tool cleans the bore electrolytically by plating the copper from the bore onto a stainless center rod. It's not actually faster than the Boretech stuff, but for diagnostic purposes, you will see exactly where the copper was most heavily deposited in the bore by where most of it is on the rod (withdraw it slowly so you don't disturb it; the structure is weak almost like wet dust). As mentioned earlier, it is normally seen nearer the throat because that's where the bullet is when the chamber pressure peaks. Peak chamber pressure upsets the bullet most strongly, including lateral swelling pressure, so friction with the bore is highest at that point in a straight bore. As a result, the most copper rubs off there. Indeed, in a rifle load the pressure is so high there that if you cut a rifle barrel down so it is just a couple inches longer than the chamber, the muzzle blast actually deforms the bullet base as it exits. An illustration is on page 25 (pdf page 36) of this study.

So, once you have the gun clean, you may slug it. This consists of pushing a pure or very nearly pure lead slug (cast bullet alloy is too hard) slowly down the lightly oiled bore with a cleaning rod. The pure lead is very plastic but inelastic, so when it passes through a tight spot you feel the extra drag of deforming it, but then it feels loose beyond the constriction.

I used to use cast separate pure lead bullets for slugging, just tapping them in at the muzzle with a short piece of wood dowel and a brass hammer (in case I missed). Today I'm too lazy to run separate lead melts and usually use a Hornady round ball that is oversize. I roll it between two flat pieces of steel until it is just a couple or three thousandths over the expected groove diameter, then tap the resulting little pill in to start it. Then you just push it slowly, feeling for hesitations.

Do put an oily patch through the bore before starting the slug. Some even like to put STP on the slug itself. Try until you find what you like. The main thing is learning the feel. If you don't want to case your own or use lead balls, Beartooth Bullets sells slugging supplies. NECO also has pure lead slugs.

So, if you find a constriction, what next? Well you can measure the slug to see how far out of round it is, if you are curious. One of the uses of slugs in a straight bore is to measure it for actual groove diameter for choosing case bullet sizes. You can send the gun back to the factory. The postage isn't cheap, but you don't need an FFL to send guns for repair or for the factory to return them to your address. Getting some personal attention for your gun is often a good idea, and the factory guys should have seen the largest number of them with this same problem. If you don't think you qualify for warranty work (check with the factory first) then you can either hand lap the bore, as they would, or you can firelap the bore, which is easier. Again, there are kits available and there should be past posts describing the process.

The only poor firelapping kit I've seen is the Wheeler kit sold by Midway. It's a rip-off of NECO's patented multi-grade format, but doesn't use the same high quality abrasives and has instructions that show an incorrectly lapped bore and claim it is correct. In addition to NECO's method, Beartooth Bullets has a kit that works with a single abrasive grade, and Veral Smith (LBT) sells a single abrasive version and instructions in his book, as well. For those who can't bring themselves to use a mild abrasive bore cleaner, this will cause heart attacks, but boy does it ever put an end to fouling problems.
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Old October 2, 2010, 06:18 PM   #12
ogree
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+3 on using Wipe-Out.
All foaming bore cleaners are not created equal.

Wipe-Out is the One !
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Old October 2, 2010, 06:26 PM   #13
oldcspsarge
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after cleaning with powder solvent, to get all the copper out, try "WITCHES BREW "

It was developed by Darryl Holland, Master Gunsmith of Holland's gunsmithing.

It is available via www.midwayusa.com and it out performs ANYTHING on the market in removing copper.

try it you will love it ! Just follow the instructions !
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Old October 2, 2010, 06:37 PM   #14
Newton24b
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im using a marlin 336w so i know its not a junker.

is there any trick to using Hoppes Elite solvent which i have used with no success on my rifle, but is extremely good at cleaning 30 year old pennies i found on the parking lot?
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Old October 2, 2010, 11:45 PM   #15
LaserSpot
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Quote:
is there any trick to using Hoppes Elite solvent which i have used with no success on my rifle, but is extremely good at cleaning 30 year old pennies i found on the parking lot?
I've found that copper solvents works a lot faster after you "rough up" the copper coating with a bronze brush, or better, a bronze brush smeared with JB paste. Alternate between brushing and soaking a couple times, it will come clean. Do not put the brush away with copper solvent on it.

Solvents alone wont get the bore as clean and shiny as JB, but you don't HAVE to get it squeaky clean; a trace of copper wont affect accuracy. Does it feel smooth the whole way down if you swab with a tight oiled patch?
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Old October 3, 2010, 09:54 AM   #16
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buncha (horsey) poop

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Old October 10, 2010, 10:16 PM   #17
mustang_steve
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KG12, leave a patch wetted with it in the fouled spot overnight, that'll remove it.....then try to figure out why it's fouling there to prevent it from happening again.
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