The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 29, 2010, 07:29 PM   #26
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
So, do you have any fault with how this guy defended himself? Should he have pulled sooner rather than later?
No!! What do you think this is---the Huffington Post or Gun Banners of America?

Why would a reasonable person, including those who frequent gun forums, have a problem with using deadly force against a drawn gun being used to commit felony assault that could cause injury or death---from the beating, before factoring in the possibility (or likelyhood) of being shot?

Yes, our hindsight would probably agree that he should have acted sooner. The results to the violent criminals would have been the same without the injury to the good guy.

It's too bad that ... Congress ... , who've just decided to recess without doing their jobs, don't consider a mandatory ten year prison sentence for anyone luring another to a place for the purpose of robbery...

OK, rant done, and yes, thanks for asking, I do feel better.

Last edited by JohnKSa; September 29, 2010 at 10:54 PM. Reason: Removed off-topic comments.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old September 29, 2010, 10:38 PM   #27
R1145
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 343
I think the pizza guy showed admirable restraint. A reasonable person only uses deadly force as a last resort.

Regardless of the fact that it is legally justified, pizza guy will probably lose his job, incur legal costs and have to live in fear of reprisals to himself and his family. Hopefully, he comes out of this OK.

He is alive, however, and very reasonably could have been killed that night.

He probably would have been legally justified to use lethal force earlier in the incident. Pizza guy is probably a brave man.
R1145 is offline  
Old September 29, 2010, 11:36 PM   #28
BfloBill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2010
Location: Buffalo, N.Y.
Posts: 431
There must have been something in the perps demeanor/actions that made the worker feel that they would eventually go away without serious harm or he probably would have acted sooner. What would be nice to know (but we never will) is what the perps did or said to make him change his assessment of the situation.
BfloBill is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 08:50 AM   #29
WARRIOR I
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2009
Location: SC
Posts: 169
When this story was reported in Columbia, the usual phrase was applied about
halfway through the article, ie- "...police have not said whether any charges
would be brought against the employee...etc." This seems to be a standard
reporting technique, indicative of the extreme leftist position taken by most
media outlets.

Charges ? For someone who deserves the highest civic award available ?
WARRIOR I is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 09:14 AM   #30
madmag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2007
Location: The South
Posts: 4,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by WARRIOR I
Charges ? For someone who deserves the highest civic award available ?
Never know what will happen, but the Charlotte NC and SC area have been very good about these kinds of SD shootings. One happened in the area about a year ago that even shocked me. The older guy chased the BG's from his home after they invaded and tied up his family. He ended up out on the city street and then shot one of the BG's he thought had a gun. No charges were filed.

I think the Pizza Hut delivery guy will be OK.

Last edited by madmag; September 30, 2010 at 11:25 AM.
madmag is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 10:05 AM   #31
Manco
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Posts: 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by BfloBill
There must have been something in the perps demeanor/actions that made the worker feel that they would eventually go away without serious harm or he probably would have acted sooner.
Either that or he was being held at gunpoint and probably would have been shot had he drawn his own weapon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BfloBill
What would be nice to know (but we never will) is what the perps did or said to make him change his assessment of the situation.
Didn't one of the articles say that one of the perps almost discovered that the deliveryman was armed with a gun? That's a pretty good reason to draw and fire, like RIGHT NOW!
Manco is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 10:24 AM   #32
therealdeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 627
please keep us posted on the outcome. In my personal opinion the worker will not lose his job or face any kind of negative legal consequences from this situation. There have been several, recent murders/robberies concerning pizza delivery men of late. That being said, my guess is a good or bad as anyone's, so we'll have to just wait and see.
__________________
NRA Distinguished Life Member

"Abraham Lincoln freed all men, but Sam Colt made them all equal." (post Civil War slogan)
therealdeal is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 11:08 AM   #33
madmag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2007
Location: The South
Posts: 4,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by therealdeal
please keep us posted on the outcome.
I will. I live in the area and check the news daily.

Last edited by madmag; September 30, 2010 at 11:25 AM.
madmag is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 01:30 PM   #34
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
What would be nice to know (but we never will) is what the perps did or said to make him change his assessment of the situation.
Well, not exactly.


He said he opened fire when, during the pistol whipping, they were trying to lift up his shirt---which would have exposed his gun. He knew that he likely would have been shot as soon as they saw it in his hand concealed under his shirt.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 02:05 PM   #35
sliponby
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 136
Contact Pizza Hut CS

Want to know how to get a message to Pizza Hut concerning this incident? Go to their website and send a message stating your thoughts on this matter and your reaction, should they fire or reprimand the employee for defending his life.

I'm not a big fan of take out pizza but I shot them an email stating my thoughts. Personally I prefer Dominos, IMHO...
__________________
No one prays harder for peace than the soldier.
"We Dare Defend Our Rights", Alabama State Motto...
sliponby is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 03:30 PM   #36
kaylorinhi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2010
Location: The brown eye of america
Posts: 463
feedback sent

That was a pain going through all the steps but worth it. I made sure I stated that I was glad they were continuing to support our rights and that character traits shown by nameless delivery man good and right. I also left all my contact(mandatory:barf info so we will see if they respond.
__________________
Buy your guns by Yardline,
Not Looks.
kaylorinhi is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 04:38 PM   #37
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,010
Quote:
I expect hellfire should Pizza Hut fire this guy. Especially after he showed restraint that very very few people have. I am failing to understand how one beaten and permanently scarred innocent employee and a successful robbery is a better policy than 2 dead robbers/convicted felons and an unsuccessful robbery.
Because you do not understand what motivates Corporations: Corporations are there to “Maximize Profits”

If a corporation encourages employees to resist, to carry guns, and the employee hurts a Goblin, the corporation is subject to a lawsuit. Court costs are not cheap and the settlement could be huge.

Whereas if the Corporation teaches its employees to be passive, to non resist, and this behavior allows a Goblin to kill an employee, its a law enforcement issue. Government assumes the cost.

Dead employees are cheaper than dead Goblins.

It is all about profits.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 04:49 PM   #38
Mr. James
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 1,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamfire
Dead employees are cheaper than dead Goblins.
That, pathetically, is the simple truth. Corporations are amoral critters. "Maximize profits," and "minimize litigation risks." All of which translates to "Dead employees are cheaper than dead Goblins."
__________________
"...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat
Mr. James is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 05:33 PM   #39
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Lawyers advise companies on such matters--or maybe write the policy themselves. As stated, companies are less concerned about your welfare than their own liability.

It's easier to settle with the family of an injured or dead employee than to deal with lawsuits filed by Bubba's family.

That doesn't mean that disciplinary action has to include firing. Being required to donate $20 toward the company picnic should be enough.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 05:46 PM   #40
WANT A LCR 22LR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Posts: 389
From what I recall, many Pizza Huts are privately owned so slamming a local store won't do much good.

As for companies being "evil" and more interested in the bottom line, who here has money in a 401K or other retirement plan? The money your account makes primarily comes from company stocks.

The Pizza hut is in somewhat of a bind. If they soften the rule for one guy they are endorsing others to ignore the law as well. If they get rid of him some will push the issue if he was not carrying he'd likely be dead. If carry is made OK, you can pretty much figure a customer will be accidentally shot at some point then the store sued. I'm betting a actuary ran the numbers and came up with a shot customer costing more. ( A actuary has been described as a accountant that does not have a personality )

I'd say put the person that made the no carry rule in the same cooler with the knowledge that the next person coming in will be beating them with a gun and see what the rule maker does. ( BTW, also tell the rule maker that they must sign away all possibility of the attacker going to jail for their injuries / murder. )
WANT A LCR 22LR is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 06:09 PM   #41
Lucky 7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2002
Posts: 454
In my past life, I moonlighted as a delivery driver when I was about to EAS from the Marines (last year). I was working as an Infantry Skills Trainer with 2nd MarDiv DTC by day and running all over Jacksonville, NC at night. I packed (a Taurus 85UL or Sig 232) on those nights when I requested to stay off base (better tips), but carried a Benchmade and a roll of nickles (ducted taped for added strength) everywhere.

My buddy who got me the job (also a Marine) and I had a few close calls and petitioned our manager to let us pack, but were told to take it on the archs if we didn't like it. We packed anyway (when not on base) because, as my buddy put it, "We've been through enough bull**** to take any stateside." I understand the liablity issue but think how much a wrongful death suit would cost. It's sad to see common sense buried in today's society.

Bravo to the driver.

Regards,
Lucky
__________________
Signature Space For Rent.
SOLD!
"Just relax. Breath normally. All you should see is the front sight post. Ignore the the target. Wait for the pause between breaths and when you feel good about it...ease the trigger back."
-PMI Sgt. Hopkins, USMC
Lucky 7 is offline  
Old September 30, 2010, 10:33 PM   #42
Mr. James
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 1,521
Quote:
If carry is made OK, you can pretty much figure a customer will be accidentally shot at some point then the store sued.
Forgive me for bluntness, but this is just silly. Has there been a single documented case of any fast food delivery driver shooting an innocent customer?

Could it happen? Yes, which is exactly why "dead employees are cheaper than dead Goblins." Thank you for proving Slamfire's point. It is precisely why Pizza Hut, 7-11 and all the rest would rather have a cooler awash in their own employees' blood than a surviving employee and dead criminals.

To infer, as you did, that some of us are hypocrites because we have 401(k) plans is not worthy of further comment.

I'm curious, are you one of these "actuaries" who actually documented how many times cabbies or delivery drivers or convenience store clerks accidentally killed innocent customers?

No, I didn't think so.

Forgive me for being a bit acidic tonight, please.
__________________
"...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat
Mr. James is offline  
Old October 1, 2010, 09:00 AM   #43
.40cal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2006
Location: Somewhere in SC
Posts: 214
I think this was handled perfectly and played out like it should have for the BGs but I can't sit here and tell you that I would have held out as long as this guy did to pull my weapon.

The risk of being knocked unconsious is far to great in this situation. Once you're out, there's really no telling what could have happened. You may not have come out of it alive

This is just a clear cut situation of him or me. And you better believe . . . it's never gonna be me.
__________________
"The philosophy of gun control: Teenagers are roaring through town at 90MPH, where the speed limit is 25. Your solution is to lower the speed limit to 20.”
.40cal is offline  
Old October 1, 2010, 09:08 AM   #44
Manco
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Posts: 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by therealdeal
In my personal opinion the worker will not lose his job
I bet that he gets fired. If not, then that would be a major break from the company's policy, as deliverymen who have defended themselves using firearms in the past have always been fired, as far as I'm aware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by therealdeal
or face any kind of negative legal consequences from this situation.
Seems like a more than justified shooting to me--only a rabidly anti-gun DA would bother going after him.
Manco is offline  
Old October 1, 2010, 09:13 AM   #45
Drummer101
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 896
If they do fire him they might/could do a quick fire and rehire on the spot just to go through the motions and say, "no guns again (wink)".
Drummer101 is offline  
Old October 1, 2010, 11:01 AM   #46
indykappa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 8, 2010
Location: charlotte, nc (but indianapolis is home)
Posts: 100
i live in charlotte. most of the people i have spoken to (some pro-gun, some not so much) have all agreed with the pizza hut employee's actions.

when the incident originally happened, the local media witheld the identities of the "victims". i told my wife "i bet they have criminal histories".

fast forward about 36 hours from the first reports of the crime, and sure enough...they reveal the identities of the guys by showing their...wait for it...mugshots.

i always try to explain to my non-gun friends that there are VERY FEW random killings. it's usually knucklehead-on-knucklehead crime. every once in awhile you get a honest, law-abiding citizen who has to shoot a knucklehead (that's my response when they start to say things like "what happens if we let all pizza delivery guys pack heat yada yada yada?")
indykappa is offline  
Old October 1, 2010, 01:05 PM   #47
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
it's usually knucklehead-on-knucklehead crime. every once in awhile you get a honest, law-abiding citizen who has to shoot a knucklehead (that's my response when they start to say things like "what happens if we let all pizza delivery guys pack heat yada yada yada?")
Once in a while?

Might be that criminals often prey upon themselves, but many thousands of good decent people are preyed upon also--just in the course of a year. Some of the very worst of criminals specialize in ordinary citizen depredation from carjackings to home invasion, burlaries, and robberies of businesses as well as individuals.

I wish it was just "once in a while". If it was, then 40 states (or about) wouldn't have adopted shall issue concealed carry since Florida led the way in 1986.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old October 1, 2010, 03:05 PM   #48
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,010
Quote:
As for companies being "evil" and more interested in the bottom line, who here has money in a 401K or other retirement plan? The money your account makes primarily comes from company stocks
Hey, how is your 401 K doing? Mine not so well. BBC says that if you put $10 K into the stock market in the year 2000, it would be worth $8K today.

Apparently a number of profit maximizing "benevolent" corporations drove the world into recession around 2008. A couple of names come into memory, Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc. A list of the surviving “benevolent” corporations that were too big to fail are at this link. http://bailout.propublica.org/list/index

Corporations are amoral in the pursuit of profit. Though a corporation may proclaim lofty long term lofty goals, it is truly only interested in its immediate gratification. Which turns out to be “profits now”. Of course it is never responsible for its actions, totally self centered, has a grandiose opinion of its own self worth. People, things, the world, are disposable objects for attainment of its goals. It is highly manipulative, and can only have a Master/Slave relationship with others. “Compromise” is viewed as weakness, so is compassion: there is no empathy for others.

Guess what, human psychopaths have the same behaviors. And until you recognize that when you are dealing with a corporation that you are also dealing with a psychopath, corporations will continue to successfully manipulate you for their own ends.

Which explains why Dead Employees are preferable to Dead Goblins.

Nothing personnel, but it is all about the profits.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old October 1, 2010, 03:05 PM   #49
indykappa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 8, 2010
Location: charlotte, nc (but indianapolis is home)
Posts: 100
well, i agreed with ya that it's more than just "once in awhile"



i guess what i was getting at is that alot of the "victims" you see on television are career criminals who lost their lives "while on the job" (if you know what i'm sayin)

it always amazes me that whenever someone gets shot, their mugshot is shown. if i got shot right now, you will find plenty of pictures of me...me and my wife on vacation, me and my nieces and nephews playing in the backyard, me at church functions...but none of me in an orange jumpsuit!!
indykappa is offline  
Old October 1, 2010, 05:05 PM   #50
madmag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2007
Location: The South
Posts: 4,239
Thanks for the replies.

I know these kinds of threads can have a short life. I normally don't post about shooting articles but this one was local and I wanted to see any comments. It certainly has made me stop and think about my daily carry habits. I will post again if they give news about the disposition of the delivery mans job status.....so far no news.

PS: So far the local news comment is in strong support of the delivery guy. The only official statement from Pizza Hut was basically just to say they are reviewing.

Last edited by madmag; October 1, 2010 at 05:16 PM.
madmag is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14082 seconds with 7 queries