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Old September 28, 2010, 05:50 PM   #1
diablo508
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WCI v. Madison: was Police charge five "legal" open carry citizens in Wisconsin

Was just making a comment on this..I'm sure a lot of you are getting emails form your various gun sites/gun rights sites about this case...

I got this from Buckeye Firearms Ass.


http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7450

type in: "Police charge five "legal" open carry citizens in Wisconsin"

and you'll see a whole slew of articles re-posting the same story and it is in a bunch of forums and peeps are jumping on the band wagon..........then I did a little research on the web and saw the news story from the incidents local area...

http://www.infowars.com/citizens-cop...-in-wisconsin/

...these guys were wearing wires?!?!? W T F?!...it is so obvious what they thought was going to happen and were planning it...what the my Pro-Gun sites leave out is the Police simply asked the guys for IDs...and 2 of them refused to show the police.....IF the police ask me for ID I'll let him see it...what is the harm in that?....And WTH .."Police Charge Five.." they only charged 2 and it had nothing to do with the open carry itself...this is the kind of miss-information crap that get people in an uproar...and then ya feel like an idiot because it was not even the case....it really makes me question the sights I visit, I love my Pro-Gun sights..but they start sending me miss-information on certian things I'll then start to question everything they send me...

I hope no-one contributes to the "legal fund" that people are putting up for them...I'm all for Open Carry and Concealed Carry, but morons like this is what hurts it from happening
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Old September 28, 2010, 06:03 PM   #2
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diablo, very interesting. I'm gonna read the links/stories when I get back from dinner.
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Old September 28, 2010, 06:08 PM   #3
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I'm not really convinced either way. If this group has been harassed by police before, then it might make sense to wear a wire. Otherwise, it is the police officer's word against your own. As for being asked to produce identification when you haven't done anything wrong, wouldn't you be annoyed? I think the whole open carry thing is stupid and leads to a lot of unnecessary confrontations because sheeple get scared when they see guns. I'm not familiar with Wisconsin law regarding open carry, but I would assume that convicted felons are not allowed to carry firearms. That would allow the police to stop every person openly carrying a firearm to ask them for identification. Wisconsin just needs to wisen up and allowed concealed carry.
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Old September 28, 2010, 06:11 PM   #4
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No offense.... but... I AM from Wisc. originally..and... you CAN legally open carry there..yes...but,,why would anyone do it??? You can legally carry in public...but once you get back to your vehicle you CANNOT legally carry a loaded/uncased weapon in a moving vehicle...so... why would you carry open in the first place?? Sounds like just asking for trouble to me.... I am very happy that I live in WV now..and I do have a conceal carry permit....which wisc. does not honor.
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Old September 28, 2010, 06:39 PM   #5
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I'm living in Hawaii...it is awful!! as far as gun laws...cannot wait to be stationed back in the mainland and hopefully a gun friendly state...
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Old September 28, 2010, 06:39 PM   #6
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Open Carry as a means to an end.

The whole point is that OPEN CARRY ISN'T ILLEGAL IN WISCONSIN.

The fact of the matter is CONCEALED CARRY IS ILLEGAL IN WISCONSIN.

The unfortunate truth is that the Police are caught between a rock and a hard place in Wisconsin. They must investigate the complaints of "man with a gun." But at the same time, it's not ILLEGAL to be a man walking with a gun.

It is this very tension that helped get concealed carry passed in Ohio. I don't know if Wisconsin is a "Stop and ID state" if it isn't then a resident of Wisconsin has no requirement to give ID to a police officer if he isn't breaking the law.

Of course the common argument is "Felons aren't allowed to carry guns, so we have to make sure you're not a felon."

If you believe this to be true, then when I'm walking my child to school, holding her hand, I should be stopped and my ID should be taken to make sure I'm not a convicted sex offender, right?

You see, civil liberties don't work that way. We have an expectation of "innocent until proven guilty." You can't have it both ways, and in Wisconsin, as long as concealed carry isn't an option, you're going to have to figgure out how to deal with those who choose to excercise their rights by open carrying.

Open carrying was vital in the passage of Concealed Carry in Ohio, and I hope it does the same in Wisconsin. I just hope no one gets hurt promoting this agenda.
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Old September 28, 2010, 06:50 PM   #7
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I tried...to open carry in wisc when i visited my mom last spring...we were doing fine until we were about to board our fishing boat with open carry guns...there was a LEO there and informed us that we shouldnt consider still haveing loaded weapons on us when our boat motor was started...which would be illegal then...I took our guns back to my parents and left them there until we left the state.
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Old September 28, 2010, 06:53 PM   #8
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I hear ya...but the biggest problem I have is the spouting of all the Pro-Gun sites telling a different story than it actually is.....

...and I agree Police are put in a tough spot..If I had there job I would be apprehensive about peeps walking around with guns....especially when it is a relatively a new thing for them to get used to at least for current generations.........hell, I am apprehensive about long bearded Muslims and women in Burkas but that's just due to too many deployments and the crap in the world...not saying that it is right...it just is what it is.....


the whole...."has no requirement to give ID to a police officer if he isn't breaking the law"...but these peeps should know what they and the police are up against....cutting the cops slack would of cut them a lot too...but of course that wouldn't of made a good news story then...and in the end that's all it was about
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Old September 28, 2010, 06:57 PM   #9
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I can see both sides...but...I myself feel...after living in this state here where you CAN conceal carry....that it should be legal in ALL states to conceal carry...criminals do...and..in my OP...its our right. Still...I dont see Wisc. allowing it legally any time in the near future..in My OP.
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Old September 28, 2010, 07:16 PM   #10
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Exactly what ISN'T TRUE?

diablo508,

I've re-read the articles, and read through the links in the Buckeye Firearms Association website, and I'm not seeing anything they printed that isn't "true."

There were 5 gathered at the restaraunt, eating a meal, open carrying. Two of them were sited for Obstruction. Those two citations were dropped and then Madison PD brought 5 charges of Disorderly Conduct on the entire group of 5.

Madison is trying to make a liberal stand on them, even the 3 that were "cooperating" with the ID checks. That reeks of abuse of power if you ask me. It smacks of 4th ammendment violation as well.

I think there is a line drawn in the sand, and this case may be the watershed event that brings CCW to the forefront of discussion in Wisconsin.

http://www.cityofmadison.com/news/view.cfm?news_id=2231

If you read this link, it says they can cite someone for Disorderly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by City of Madison News Release
Instead, citations for City Ordinance DC will be given to those who engaged in the behavior that led to the need for police to be called.

The DC statute does not require an actual disturbance take place, only that conduct in question is of a type that tends to cause or provoke a disturbance
Wait.....What? Someone calls the police on you and you get cited because the police were called on you?

That's so ignorant, I'm going to cough up some cash for the defense of this joke of an interpretation of the law.
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Old September 28, 2010, 07:50 PM   #11
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I hope that this sends a message to police that we still have the right to carry openly. It will be interesting to see how far this case goes. Even the 911 call reveals that they were "peaceful" and not doing anything that could be construed as threatening or disturbing the peace.

Secondly, if anyone open carries, you need to be willing to go to jail or court to defend your right to open carry. If you are not willing to accept this possibility, then don't open carry.
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Old September 28, 2010, 08:01 PM   #12
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In the past, I have supported the right to open carry while questioning the wisdom of doing so in urban areas for a variety of reasons. Now, I'm beginning to re-think my position on open carry and support this type of demonstration (and I do believe it was a quiet demonstration). The reason the police questioned these people is because they were exercising a right, a right the good people of Wisconsin are apparently on the brink of losing through failure to exercise it.

The police action is equivalent to what is known as a "heckler's veto" where a heckler tries to veto a person's right to free speech by causing such a ruckus that the police stop or arrest the speaker. Wikipedia has some general information about this -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler%27s_veto.

Here, there does not seem to be any immediate danger or threat to the public safety caused by the "heckler" so that the charges by the police are patently unwarranted.
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Old September 28, 2010, 08:06 PM   #13
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It would be nice to set a date in which every handgun owner in wisc, who wanted to be able to carry without harrassment, to all carry openly on that date... there arent enough police officers in wisc to respond to that many calls....strength in numbers...sort of thing. Five People isnt enough.
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Old September 28, 2010, 09:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscoRacing
It would be nice to set a date in which every handgun owner in wisc, who wanted to be able to carry without harrassment, to all carry openly on that date... there arent enough police officers in wisc to respond to that many calls....strength in numbers...sort of thing. Five People isnt enough.
This is exactly how the Ohio Concealed Carry legislation finally passed. It was a series of open carry rallies and events that finally got the Legislators to over-ride the VETO the governor at the time held up.
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Old September 28, 2010, 09:40 PM   #15
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When I was a young guy, 1960s, if a LEO asked you for ID you better have it and you better show it or you were going to jail. Sounds to me like those guys were asking for it and they got it.
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Old September 28, 2010, 09:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjrivero
The unfortunate truth is that the Police are caught between a rock and a hard place in Wisconsin. They must investigate the complaints of "man with a gun." But at the same time, it's not ILLEGAL to be a man walking with a gun.
This keeps coming up.

WHY "must" the police investigate all reports of a man with a gun, if being a man with a gun is not prima facie illegal?

Driving a car without a license, or driving under the influence, is/are illegal. Does that mean that MADD members can report every car they see on Main Street, and the police have to investigate every car reported? What's the report? "I saw a man driving on Main Street." And the dispatcher is going to say, "And so what? Call back if you see him driving in a way that's illegal."

So why is the same approach not taken for "man with a gun" calls? If open carry is legal (which it is in Wisconsin), then the mere fact of walking in public with a gun in a holster on your belt is NOT illegal, and provides NO probable cause or even reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. So a woman calls in a "man with gun" report. Why does the dispatcher not ask, "What is he doing with the gun?"?

And when the answer comes back, "He's ... he's ... he's WALKING ... on the STREET ... with a GUN in a holster thingie on his belt!" the dispatcher should end the call right there: "M'am, that's legal in this state. Call us back if he does something illegal. Have a nice day."

Why are "man with a gun" calls so different from "man in a car" or "kid on a tricycle" or "woman on sidewalk" calls?

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Old September 28, 2010, 10:08 PM   #17
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open carry bust in WI

I lived in wisconsin for years a couple of decades ago, and revisit regularly.

The possibilities run the gamut- i've seen people carrying loaded rifles into bars, no problem, and i've seen people i would not trust with a slingshot.

If you have the right to carry open, you should understand that some peole may feel uncomfortable with it, and be as reasonably mature abou doing so as possible. Arizona has few problems with this, and the open carriers are very mature and professional about why they carry. I personally love it. I feel safer there than almost anywhere.

Wisconsin has some odd politics. It's not an inherently bad state, but i see too many ads for 'personal injury' lawyers on tv there. For my comfort. Still too many irresponsible deer hunters for my taste, though i do occasionally take my chances with them... They are not too intentionally mean, but again, people there tend to run the gamut..

nuf said
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Old September 28, 2010, 10:12 PM   #18
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When I was a young guy, 1960s, if a LEO asked you for ID you better have it and you better show it or you were going to jail. Sounds to me like those guys were asking for it and they got it.
Well, that era of history was not known for it's foundation in American Freedom. Just because that was your experience doesn't mean it how it is now or how it ever should be. We live in a constitutional republic that doesn't require us to 'carry our papers'. I know, it's such a little thing to get annoyed over, but then again, our fore fathers would have thrown a fit if they knew the police were running around doing stuff like this.
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Old September 28, 2010, 10:35 PM   #19
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And WTH .."Police Charge Five.." they only charged 2 and it had nothing to do with the open carry itself...this is the kind of miss-information crap that get people in an uproar...and then ya feel like an idiot because it was not even the case....it really makes me question the sights I visit,
Yes and no. They originally charged the 2 who refused to give IDs with obstructing an officer, but upon consulting with their city attorney, dropped those charges. THEN they charged all 5 with "disturbing the peace."

AFAIK, that's where it stands now. Expect a 1983 lawsuit soon!
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Old September 29, 2010, 08:16 AM   #20
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Just a side note, police look for things that are not common or everyday happenings. Example, if there is always a van parked behind the package store at night, then it needs no further thought-its the norm. If there is never a van behind the store, now we need to see if there is a break-in going on, did the van break down and need a wrecker? Medical issue with the driver?

How does that apply to open carry? If it's a common thing where you live, then most of the time it will not cause alarm or generate calls about a man with a gun. If its not common and people don't see it, then you get calls. Calls about everyday, common things don't get the same attention from LE that uncommon calls get. If everyone walks around in Bisbee, Arizona or El Paso Texas with openly carried guns, there shouldn't be calls to LE because it happens every day. Now if that goes on somewhere that doesn't have it happen every day, then you get calls, people are alarmed, police respond. I would assume wherever this went on isn't a place where open carry is the norm.

Not saying that's right or wrong, just the way it is.
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Old September 29, 2010, 08:50 AM   #21
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Conn. Trooper

It's worth noting that open carry (as I understand) is illegal in TX. AFAIK, if someone who cares happens to see your concealed weapon exposed in a stiff breeze that lifted your cover garment, you can be charged.
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Old September 29, 2010, 06:38 PM   #22
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Given the demographics of El Paso, I can assure you that anyone openly carrying a firearm will attract plenty of LEO attention IMMEDIATELY. As was pointed out, open carry is illegal in Texas - and strictly enforced in cities. El Paso isn't just some little podunk border town, contrary to what some might be imagining. It's a big, busy place, with tons of people going through it on their way to and from Juarez, one of the hotbeds of cocaine and methamphetamine manufacture and distribution and home to countless drug slayings. So....no...ain't no one carrying openly in El Paso for very long that isn't a LEO. Get out to a small country town (Texas has plenty of them), where everyone knows each other and the sheriff and a few deputies are the only law in town? Sure...you'll see open carry in places like that. But not in the cities.
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Old September 29, 2010, 07:17 PM   #23
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Open carry is legal in Kentucky but I seldom do so outside of tramping through field and wood (which I don't do all that much anymore). It is nice, however, to have that option. If the police stopped and asked for my ID, I would hand it over. They have their job to do and are placed in a difficult situation when they receive a call of an armed person.

But Kentucky is pretty friendly to firearms. In some other states, gun owners may have to push for their rights and I am beginning to understand this.
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Old September 29, 2010, 08:17 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conn. Trooper
How does that apply to open carry? If it's a common thing where you live, then most of the time it will not cause alarm or generate calls about a man with a gun. If its not common and people don't see it, then you get calls.
How does this play out for you and your agency in Connecticut, Sir? Under Connecticut law, nobody is allowed to carry a handgun without a permit, but with the permit any mode of carry is legal -- concealed or open. (Yes, you can verify that -- I'm told that some legal office within state government researched it thoroughly and has advised the State Police that open carry IS legal with a permit.)

So -- if open carry is legal, albeit unusual because for years police and citizens all over Connecticut have been told it is NOT legal, then how (and why) do you respond to a call about a man with a gun? If the man is simply wearing the gun in a holster on his belt, you have no probable cause or even reasonable suspicion that he is breaking the law -- certainly no more than seeing a person driving down the road and assuming they don't have a driver's license.

So ... what would you do? First, how would your 9-1-1 dispatchers handle the call? Next, assuming they'd fluff it and send a unit ... how would you approach the person? Would you even talk to him or her, or would you be satisfied to see that he/she is just drinking coffee and reading the newspaper, while wearing a handgun on his/her belt?
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Old September 29, 2010, 11:10 PM   #25
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I read the various articles on this and I think these guys were expecting something to happen even if they werent sure that it would happen on any particular day.

That said, I also think there was no probable cause and that the police abused there power. I think the refusal to show id was based on the lack of any probable cause. I could see myself being offended if Im doing nothing wrong and Im accosted for simply doing what the law allows. Yes I would have shown Id to the police but I would have also written the Mayor and probably a Senator or two about the abuse of power.

This group seems to have some experience in these problems and I do think they were operating within the law even if they were eventually expecting to be challenged.

Im not sure what its going to take (if anything will ever work) for police to start following the constitution as the right to bear arms has been ruled a fundamental right, especially concerning pistols. I appologize for the generalization toward police but there are a lot of problems out there. Police are not the only citizens allowed to carry guns and certain individuals need to learn that. Sorry, I respect my officers in blue but I feel there is some justification.
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