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Old September 24, 2010, 09:33 PM   #1
CajunPowder
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Lead jacketed OR solid copper round ball

Is it possible to procure or to home brew copper round balls, that are jacketed or plated or coated with lead.

How thick would the lead jacket have to be in order to allow proper swaging into the muzzle during loading?

How thick would the lead jacket have to be in order to allow proper swaging in the barrel in order to engage the grooves so that twist would be imparted?

*** hair in the brain

Could one drill two very small holes through centers in a copper ball, perpendicular centers ... that would provide for "tunnels" through the copper ball so that thin pins could be placed into those center holes to form a support structure that held the copper ball in the middle of a lead round ball die. So that when lead was poured into the mold, it would form a jacket around the copper ball. And if lead pins were used through the holes in the copper ball, then those pins would melt into the jacket.

Has this ever been done, can it be done simply?

Last edited by CajunPowder; September 25, 2010 at 07:48 PM.
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Old September 24, 2010, 09:52 PM   #2
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whats the freaky reason for it?


if you simply dip a copper pellet in lead, and then manage to swage it down to size, all your doing is making an objext like a chocolate covered peanut. apply any pressure to it, and it will seperate into base parts.

if you did the pin idea, it would have to be a lead pin to insert in an attempt to provide some substance to the chocolat/lead coating. still slightly better but..

in most instances you would not be able to load it correctly into your bp revolver to keep the chamber mouth from breaking the lead jacket into seperate pieces. in all honesty, the pieces would just jump out during recoil from your first discharge, and the first bullet you shoot will come out like shrapnel.
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Old September 25, 2010, 12:15 AM   #3
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The object would be to derive some of the benefits one gets from a harder metal, like penetration and less expansion. I'm thinking defense loads, just curious really.
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Old September 25, 2010, 08:16 AM   #4
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Wouldn't accuracy suffer as well? I don't know, but I'm thinking unless centered perfectly, it would. I would think you've now probably got an off-centered ball, inside a shell, that is going to come out of the barrel spinning, then going somewhat out of control. Wobbling, if you will, like putting a weight on a wheel, then spinning it.
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Old September 25, 2010, 09:23 AM   #5
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Oh that's a BIG 10-4, the copper round ball will certainly have to be perfectly centered inside the lead coating, plating, or jacket.
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Old September 25, 2010, 12:42 PM   #6
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Are you talking about using a muzzle loading rifle or carbine for defense? If you want better penetration than you'd get from a soft lead ball, then you need to go with sabot rounds.

Also, swaging a ball into a rifle muzzle is old school stuff. Use a patch and a sub-caliber round ball instead.
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Old September 25, 2010, 12:53 PM   #7
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Guy:

An 1858 NMA. I want to avoid damaging the rifling, thus the lead jacket or coating and to preserve the feature of the soft lead that swages or molds itself tightly to the inside of the barrel when fired.

And all of this is just dream stuff. If it could be done, had been done ... I'd consider doing it, I'm just wondering about all this.

I'm happy with big round balls and their terrific expansion on game, etc ... but they don't wear armor or flak jackets.
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Old September 25, 2010, 01:38 PM   #8
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Copper or brass ball slightly undersized and paper patched or a double thick fabric patch like I use under my lead balls. Me thinks it would be a lot easier and less problems down the road. Sabot was your best advice.
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Old September 25, 2010, 02:12 PM   #9
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Old Grump:

At this point I'm only wanting to do this with a pistol, but you are right on the mark for a rifle, and yes, of course, sabots are quite ... powerful.

Patching a copper ball with a kevlar patch might work quite nicely. But I don't have enough experience to understand how this might work out in a 1858 NMA.
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Old September 25, 2010, 03:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
I'm happy with big round balls and their terrific expansion on game, etc ... but they don't wear armor or flak jackets.
If your defending yourself against something wearing a flak jacket with a muzzle loading pistol, you have far deeper reaching problems and issues besides penetration.

Perhaps a more modern arm would be proper for your zombie apocalypse?
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Old September 25, 2010, 03:30 PM   #11
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hickstick:

When I run out of cartridges, primers, propellant or lead, then I want to be able to turn to my own skills with a muzzle loader.

I live in the Cajun Triangle, and know more than a few people, people who work in and out of Texas who are terrified of the drug gangs, these are the people I am most concerned about at this time.

The drug gangs are being outfitted with old, surplus body armor that your tax dollars paid for.

The Mexican government gets "granted" surplus military equipment from the United States government and the corrupt elements, (almost all of the Mexican government officials are either corrupted or terrorized into submission), then SELL that to the Mexican drug gangs because they will pay top dollar.

We've run quite a few illegals out of our area and as a result our unemployment rate is dropping, and the drug gangs DO NOT like communities that enforce federal and state level ... LAW.

Have you seen the movie "Machete"? That's what is happening on the border at this time and it's just a matter of time before it spills over, oh wait ... it already has into Arizona.
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Old September 25, 2010, 03:32 PM   #12
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hickstick:

Furthermore, Americans who taunt people like me who are seriously concerned about infiltration by Mexican drug gangs might not belong on this board, sir.

I have adequate weaponry, three fine National Guardsmen who live on my block, a group of Confederate militia men in this city and some decent police, not many but a few.

My "real" guns have always been and will always be a private matter.
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Old September 25, 2010, 04:20 PM   #13
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Thats all well and good but at the end of the day your STILL defending yourself with a muzzle loading pistol against "hostiles" who have modern arms and body armour.

Dont really see what the point of the verbal tirade was since these Quentin Tarantino mexicans you describe will have much more bullets then you do. The whole muzzle loading scenario is moot.

You could spend time, effort and finances on tooling, machinery and special moulds, or spend that money on several thousand FMJ bullets, primers and powder.

And lighten up, If your paranoid about mexicans or other illegals and are convinced the best course of action is to defend yourself with a 1858 remington revolver, accept some questioning of your logic.


Finally on a helpful note. If its only for defense, why not load some FMJ bullets and problem solved? With all the kirst converter cylinders out there I imagine firing a FMJ round through a Cap n ball has been done. Might be something to look into, although your cylinder chambers may need to be bored out. Another option is having a conical bullet mould machined that will accept a copper core and have the lead cast around it, Im not sure what the legalities are on this since you could easily substitute a steel or tungsten core........... But a job like this could be easily done by any one of the custom bullet mould manufactures. You DO know conicals can be shot out of a Cap and Ball do you not?

Last edited by hickstick_10; September 25, 2010 at 04:27 PM.
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Old September 25, 2010, 04:32 PM   #14
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Americans who taunt people like me who are seriously concerned about infiltration by Mexican drug gangs might not belong on this board, sir.

Cajun---you're listing your location as Louisiana... That's a fair stretch from the mexican border unless you're counting the Gulf of Mexico. Are they paddling in with kayaks now?


Seriously folks, this smells an awful lot like a teenager that really doesn't know what he's talking about. I could be wrong, but not a single thing on the OP's question or follow-ups even seem rational or logical. There's my 2-cents.
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Old September 25, 2010, 05:52 PM   #15
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hickstick:

If I started purchasing 1000's of Jacketed boolits I'd have the local cops up in here so fast, they are extremely corrupt. 60 minutes corrupt, serial killer corrupt, drugs corrupt.

I don't need a Konverter. I think they would be fun but the primary reason I started studying muzzleloaders was to provide for myself when the other stuff runs out.

Your logic in purchasing 1000's of bullets would then give me more bullets than the Mexican drug gangs and they are incredibly expensive.

The copper ball with a patch on it is much cheaper, and I could make those myself from my scrap copper.

It's not moot.

One can shoot copper jackets through a cap and ball pistol but it destroys the barrel and accuracy suffers greatly.

The patched ball put forth by Old Grump is this thread's winner.

Rangefinder:

We just finished running a bunch of illegals out of here, some of them dealing drugs, absolutely connected with the Mexican drug gangs murdering and kidnapping children, women and men near the border AND in Arizona in that patch of National Forest Barry Soetoro gave them.

Loosen up and have fun with the topic Rangefinder, and think seriously about running out of Ammo.

You do understand during Katrina, and I was there for that, the cops took all our guns and ammo away from us, at gunpoint.

Grow up little fella.
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Old September 25, 2010, 05:54 PM   #16
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Thank you Old Grump, you serve the membership of this board honorably.
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Old September 25, 2010, 06:32 PM   #17
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Seriously folks, this smells an awful lot like a teenager that really doesn't know what he's talking about. I could be wrong, but not a single thing on the OP's question or follow-ups even seem rational or logical. There's my 2-cents.
Completely agree, and there may be some paranoia to be concerned about as well.

Quote:
If I started purchasing 1000's of Jacketed boolits I'd have the local cops up in here so fast, they are extremely corrupt. 60 minutes corrupt, serial killer corrupt, drugs corrupt.
Cajun power, no one is going to suspect anything by you purchasing jacketed bullets as a reloading component.
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The copper ball with a patch on it is much cheaper, and I could make those myself from my scrap copper
When you come up with a way to inexpensively cast a copper ball that even comes close to the roundness and is spherically accurate as a hand cast lead ball please let us know. Heck let us know how casting copper in your round ball mold turns out. Or will you be melting scrap copper into bar stock and turning spheres off on a lathe?

Again in an attempt to be helpful and to save your molds. You ever heard of brazing? Well when you poor molten copper into an iron mold, it will most likely stick there...........permanently. Aluminum molds, I really hope you understand how that wont work eather. Perhaps you have a state of the art ball rolling mill in your garage that will roll out the rough spheres.......but for some reason I doubt it. If your going to sand cast them, the 1 in 100 that is suitable to shoot will be about as balanced in flight as a half empty beer can. Check out scrap copper prices while your at it to. And factor in the cost to melt it.

Then look at the cost of 2000 copper jacket bullets from midway.............you COULD paper patch a smaller caliber up, and avoid the copper contacting the rifling.

Best of luck, if nothing else the world needs more people with your kind of perseverance.

Edited to add: I GOT IT!!!!! Lost wax casting.......all you need is investment (plaster), the proper wax, a mold to shape the wax balls, the tools and equipment to build a casting "tree" (look it up), a furnace that reaches 2000 degrees and a tumbling polisher.

Shouldn't cost you more then a few grand

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Old September 25, 2010, 06:54 PM   #18
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Might be cool if you're trying to shoot around corners. Sounds like a knuckle ball to me....
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Old September 25, 2010, 07:01 PM   #19
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hickstick:

Thank you for supporting my perseverance. I get all the free methane I can use, melting copper is no problem, it's free. I've got a lot of scrap copper already, no problem, (minus what the illegals stole).

I've already got the materials and energy. Casting the copper balls will be a challenge and a pleasure to research and accomplish as inexpensively as possible.

You don't understand the deep south and small towns where half the police force is either suspended, fired, under investigation by a Grand Jury, in prison, shot dead by their fellow officer, on the take, on drugs, etc..., etc...

Your attacks on my character, (childish name calling), mingled with your well wishing describes your character quite well.

Thanks for doing your best to trash my thread. And I will persevere.

I think you are jealous that I have a cool project that I can probably complete and all you got is vinegar.

2000 rounds from midway is cash money that others can choose to spend.

Your REQUIREMENT that this be expensive for me, (so you can say I will fail), and your REQUIREMENT that I cast the copper balls improperly, (so you can say I failed), describes your character plainly.

You ain't from around here are you?
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Old September 25, 2010, 07:03 PM   #20
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Copper is only 78.75% as heavy as lead so a .457 roundball that weighs 143 grains in lead will only weigh 113 grains in copper. If you think lead round balls shed velocity rapidly and drift with the wind at long ranges, wait 'till you shoot copper round balls.
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Old September 25, 2010, 07:24 PM   #21
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B.L.E.

Thank you for adding that information, tastes good in my brainpan. And it's going to weigh less than that because it will be a tiny bit smaller than a comparably sized round ball. As Old Grump pointed out, the best design might be a patched ball to get some spin on the ball, (and to preserve the rifling).

I'm thinking I would get higher velocity with the lighter copper ball and that might compensate to some degree. The copper ball would come out with minimal or no deformation so it's aerodynamic qualities might be superior to the marred and partially swaged circumference of the lead ball.

Copper 50's with 150 grains behind it through my short Hawken with that big, thick heavy barrel might be quite a shooter.

But again, I'm looking for a solution for an 1858 Remmie, just because I like a real challenge.

Again, thank you for adding that information.

Last edited by CajunPowder; September 25, 2010 at 07:32 PM.
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Old September 25, 2010, 07:32 PM   #22
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Cajunpower, no attack on your character was intended. But the fact that you take every question as a personal attack speaks much clearer than any "childish name calling" you think I cooked up.

With each post a more difficult to believe statement is cooked up about the police force, manufacturing methods, illegal immigrants (those I can mostly believe) and not to mention the very heavy condescension perceived in most of your posts which belies your maturity, which mirrors many very young and very green kids I trained as apprentice machinists. I suppose in the end they, like you, have to attempt a difficult endeavor blindly several times before seeking outside assistance or accepting the slightest criticism of there methods, before some assistance makes there project much more attainable.

As far as jelousy of your cool project, I have none.

As for a swamp gas fired casting furnace................best of luck.

Last tidbit of advice is when you have that first copper melt going, add a small amount of zinc to aid in the cast-ability.

Edited to add: Hows that patch going to stay on after it hits the forcing cone?

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Old September 25, 2010, 08:38 PM   #23
Bill DeShivs
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Undersized ball bearings, patched, in rifles.
Sell your copper as scrap, and buy real bullets, or lead.
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Old September 25, 2010, 09:31 PM   #24
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Bill:

After some research on how to make pure copper round balls, there isn't a lot out there that explains the process.

I think some nice STEEL patched balls, a bit undersized like you say might be a nice project to experiment with. Steel is good and steel ball bearings in every size in the world seem to be available.
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Old September 25, 2010, 10:41 PM   #25
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Try marbels
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