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Old September 15, 2010, 06:29 AM   #1
4runnerman
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Accuracy

Hello.Once again i come to the pro's in this forum. Shooting custom built 223.
This post is for real so all help is great
Right now im shooting 1/2 inch groups at 200 yards. Problem is i want better.
I know the gun is capable of much better. My load right now is 25.2 varget,2.29 col and rem 7 1/2 primers. Does any one have a load that is working very good in a 223. I know 1/2 groups is good but,don't raze me please i do want much better. I have gotten into extreame long range shooting 500 to 1000 yards and i thought rather than experamenting for how ever long i would post it here and see if some one has a better recipie. My bullet speeds right now are with in 14 ft/sec,but i need tighter groups. any ex snipers or comp shooters willing to give up a recipie or tips?.

Thanks Very Much
Bruce
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Old September 15, 2010, 07:24 AM   #2
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Quote:
Right now im shooting 1/2 inch groups at 200 yards. Problem is i want better.
Get closer!

Okay, I know you said you didn't want anyone messin', but c'mon, you are doing groups that 98% of shooters won't be able to obtain no matter what they do.

You need to visit a site like 6mmBR. I'd also recommend that rather than try to make a 0.5" group at 200 yards smaller, you find a place to shoot 500 & 600 yards and see exactly what you are doing at those ranges. It's only theory that says your 0.5" group at two hundred yards is going to be 2 inches at 800 yards -- to truly find out, you have to shoot at 800 yards.
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Old September 15, 2010, 07:48 AM   #3
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This is where you start using benchrest loading practice's.

Weigh your cases and seperate into weight lots, deburr flash holes, trim cases, weigh bullets and seperate into weight lots.

The same weight case will have the same internal volume.

Deburred flash hole gives better ignition.

All of the above will help to shrink your groups.
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Old September 15, 2010, 08:05 AM   #4
4runnerman
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thanks for the answers. I do cull my bullets and brass to with in 1/10 grain.
Im shooting 70 gn Burger match grade bullets. I weigh all powder one at a time (no machine).
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Old September 15, 2010, 08:41 AM   #5
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Have you tried different COL yet? Have you tried different powder weights?
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Old September 15, 2010, 09:20 AM   #6
4runnerman
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Yes to both I did this round robin step ladder method. They are good groups ,but i would like better.Maybe i can't get better,but some how i think i can. 1/2 groups at 300 yards woyuld be nice. Yes i do need to get out to 600 yards and see what happens with what i have right now,But at 1/2 at 200 i don't want the dissapointment of what 300 would probebly hold,and what 600 would hold.
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Old September 15, 2010, 09:27 AM   #7
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When you state that it's a 'custom built' AR ... are you saying it was built by a smith or by you?

The reason I ask ... do you happen to know the rate of twist of the barrel, length, and make?

I can give you a perfect load for my rifle, but if your barrel isn't compatible with that load it will show.

Thanks.
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Old September 15, 2010, 09:41 AM   #8
4runnerman
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Yes it custom made Savage .It is a Model 12,but i had it built with a comp stock. Aluminum, embedded and a 28 inch stainless steel 1 in 7 twist bull barrel Thanks for asking It is not a AR though
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Old September 15, 2010, 10:14 AM   #9
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Jaguarxk120 laid out the principle, so let's get more specific. Sounds like you probably already do a lot of this stuff, so it may be redundant, but maybe a few ideas will pop for you? You are doing extreme fine tuning, so practices that won't show any improvement in a 1 moa gun can make a visible difference for you.

First, forget other people's recipes. Small differences in chamber, throat and bore dimensions from one gun to the next make a recipe perfect for one gun, but not as perfect in another. You will need to find the recipe your gun likes best. I'm not clear what you are using? The traditional way is by shooting Audette ladders, but they can be tough to interpret sometimes and don't always show the result clearly. I always recommend Dan Newberry's method, which is a round robin. Since you used a mixed term, "round robin step ladder", I don't know which you are actually using now, the ladder or the round robin? On his site, Newberry goes into why the ladders sometimes fail while his recommended round robin method works. You can use the round robin method both for fine tuning bullet seating depth and fine tuning powder charge. If you do those, you can find the tightest loads your gun is capable of.

I recommend you try a milder primer. The 7 1/2 is a good primer, but it seems to be magnum strength. Charles Petty, in a 2006 Handloader series, showed that primer raised velocity about equal to half a grain of powder out of 24 when compared with the Federal 205 (the mildest ones he tested) and that the 205's gave better velocity consistency. He did not get better accuracy from the 205's, but I believe this was because he didn't try to adjust the powder charge up for the difference in start pressure. In general, benchrest shooters get the mildest primers they so they exercise more control of the peak pressure with the powder charge. They have no way to control primer consistency other than by what they buy. Other mild primers (at least, in the lots I've had) are KVM (Wolf) and RWS (if you can find them). I laid in a lot of the Federal 205M primers at one point and currently use those with good results in both .222 and .223, having drilled some bug holes with both.

You want prepped cases. If you have a standard chamber neck diameter, I recommend sorting cases for uniform neck wall thickness before going to outside neck turning, though the latter does improve start pressure consistency. It also makes you work the brass more at each reloading, so you have to anneal necks more often if you don't have a custom narrow chamber neck. You will also want to deburr flash holes and get a cutter to uniform primer pocket depth. Or, you can just bite the bullet and shell out for a box of Lapua brass. I find they are usually good enough in all those areas right out of the box. They typically have uniform necks within 0.0005", no flash hole burrs to remove, and uniform primer pocket depth. You can fine tune all those with the extra tooling if you want to, but I can't usually see the difference. There are a couple of other uniform brands, but Lapua seems to last longest, so it justifies the investment most easily.

Use a primer seating tool that lets you control primer seating depth precisely. I recommend the K&M tool with the dial indicator accessory. Unlike the usual benchrest practice, Federal recommends seating small rifle primers 0.002" deeper than first contact with the bottom of the primer pocket (0.003" for their large rifle primers). I find that produces better muzzle velocity consistency than stopping right when the primer touches down. YMMV, but this tool gives very positive feel to touchdown and lets you try different levels of primer pellet compression using the gauge. It also has a spring loaded sleeve that keeps the case head perpendicular to the primer during seating.

You want some kind of case gauge to check finished cartridge runout. A number of brands out there will work. I like the NECO case gauge because of an extended anvil feature it has that lets you measure case wall runout back near the case head, where it is usually about twice the neck wall runout. Sorting by that metric gives you really straight cases. Others may have such an anvil these days; I don't know?

Try a Lee collet die. An English target shooting rag compared the cases neck sized by the Lee collet die to those neck sized by other brands of neck sizing dies and found the inexpensive Lee actually left the case necks more coaxial with the rest of the case than any of the others. That's inherent in its use of a mandrel to size against. The mandrel also prevents the "dreaded donut" from forming at the neck and shoulder junction, so you never have to inside ream as the cases get older.

Get the Redding body die to work with the Lee Collet die. The body dies leave the neck alone and only acts on the body of the case. Benchrest shooters have found bumping the shoulder of the neck-sized case back about 0.001" helps the cartridge self-center in the chamber and improves groups. Depending how rigid your press is, you may or may not need shims or Redding competition shell holders to help keep the setback consistent, case to case.

If you don't have one already, get or make a case comparator tool if you don't have one. These are tools that let your calipers measure from the mid-shoulder of the case to the head. You need this or something like it to let you measure how far you set the shoulder back when setting up the Redding body die.

If you don't have one already, get or make a bullet seating depth comparator tool (the Hornady LNL Overall gauge has inserts to let it serve as both a seating depth tool and a case comparator tool, above). You will use this to identify the best bullet seating depth for your rifle.

Above all, have fun.
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Old September 15, 2010, 10:30 AM   #10
4runnerman
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Thanks Unclenick. I will try all of that. The step ladder method i was talking about is the one you reference in your post. I thought is was clled the step ladder method. It did work wonders compared to where i was.Now i just want to do better than that(if possable). They tell me this gun will do .074 groups at 100 yards. I have found that to be true. At 100 yards i make the hole in the paper bigger in a five shot group. 5 shots and one hole in paper. So maybe it is me not putting gun back in same place everytime i pull trigger. I did go from 1/2 inch circles at 200 yards to making a pencil size dot in middle of bullseye so crosshairs would be more at same point of impact on each shot... You guys are the best

Thanks for all the help and will follow up and let ya know how i did
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Old September 15, 2010, 03:38 PM   #11
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Sorry for the assumption. I just assumed it was an AR.

Although ... you could still be in luck.

Do you have a Sierra Reloading manual?

This is what shoots best from my Remington 700 Tactical ....

Sierra 63 gr. SMP

CCI450 Primer

25.2 gr. H335

COAL should be 2.250"

Also ... do yourself a favor and pick up some Sierra 77gr. matchking or Hornady 75 gr. AMAX bullets. You have to play with the COL on the AMAX, but it is worth the trouble.
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Old September 15, 2010, 06:07 PM   #12
4runnerman
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Thanks riverwalker.Your load data is almost identical to what i used to shoot out of a 1 in 9 twist. 25.5 h-335 2.25 Col and rem 7 1/2 primers.Close to yours.It was a very accurate load.
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Old September 16, 2010, 09:47 AM   #13
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Try the 60 grain Sierra flat base bullet or the 60 grain Hornady V-Max.
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Old September 19, 2010, 05:30 PM   #14
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difference between point of impact on factory vs handloads on 270win

Due to some logistic/life complications I am out of handloads and unsure that I can get any done up in time for hunting season so I picked up a factory box of federal premium 130 nosler partition shells. My pet hunting handload for over 20years in a 1984 ruger m77(fit with custom fee floating fibreglass stock b4 these were factory available and a leupold variIII 2.5-8 scope) has been 55 grains of IMR 4350 behind 130grn nosler partition bullets. My dies have been set the same forever as overallcartridge length was set to be right behind rifling in this rifle. It seems that regardless of brass/primer combo this load provides sub1.5" groups in only semi benchrest conditions that shoot 3.5" high at 100yards.

The first thing that I noted about the factory loads were that they were a full1/8" shorter than the dummy handload round that I had for rifle. When I fired a 3shot group at 100 yards was quite interesting as was centre line, but was 6.5" high. the first and third shot actually overlapped and the second was flier almost 1.5" to right. When I moved out to 200 yards though noted that this load seemed to be shooting 11.5" high. I do not have my reloading manuals handy and sure do not remember my trajectory tables well enough, but this does not seem right. While I have not shot too much this year am pretty sure operator error is not the issue here and at $43/box do not want to waste too many more of the factory stuff on the range. Can somebody explain? Also, may be ignorant in another way as does not this sort of difference suggest that these factory loads may be "hotter" than what the handloads I have used for so many years. Thx.
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