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Old September 11, 2010, 07:50 AM   #1
Hammer1
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Pistol caliber carbine vs 12 gauge ?

.

From time to time, get to thinking about buying a carbine chambered for either a 45 ACP or 10mm Auto. Get to looking at the options available. Think of its potential use.

Then wonder what it would do in a self-defense scenario that couldn't be done better by a 12 gauge shotgun.

So the interest in a 45 ACP carbine passes.


.
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Old September 11, 2010, 08:04 AM   #2
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Hammer1

That is a really good and well fought over question! One of the advantages of a pistol cal. carbine (such as the MP5) is with it's 30 round magazine it can stay in the fight longer. For many tactical teams this ability to "stay engaged" longer was a weighted argument and 30 years ago you saw a decline in scatterguns on tactical teams. However, the legendary stopping power of a load of 00 buck and its versatility has returned the scattergun to some stature.

It's a good argument, however, presently the M-16 and it's covey of offshoots makes it a dusty path.

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Old September 11, 2010, 01:24 PM   #3
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Pistol caliber carbine? Why not a lever rifle in .38Spl./.357Mag.?
Or a pistol in carbine caliber, such as a Ruger in .30 Carbine?
I'm still waiting on someone to invent shot-shells for the .50 S&W.
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Old September 11, 2010, 01:28 PM   #4
Young.Gun.612
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Less collateral damage when using a single projectile versus a scattergun.

Less stopping power.

There's advantages and drawbacks.
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Old September 11, 2010, 01:38 PM   #5
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I suppose it won't be as loud as a 12 gauge in a HD situation...
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Old September 11, 2010, 02:29 PM   #6
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I don't get questions like this. Of course it will work. How well it works is dependent on the person using it. If you just turn the corner and dump 20 bullets as fast as you can from the hip you're doing something wrong. If you're able to aim that carbine and hit what you're aiming at I'd say it was a good choice.
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Old September 11, 2010, 03:25 PM   #7
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I think the pistol caliber guns have a few more advantages over the shotgun. Size, weight, ammo weight and management, as well as not having to switch out ammo for range changes are a few. The ability for people of small stature, and even young children to shoot them effectively is also a plus.


Having a selector and proper barrel length makes them even better, and a "burst" gives you performance similar to a shotgun out of them.
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Old September 11, 2010, 05:09 PM   #8
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is with it's 30 round magazine it can stay in the fight longer. For many tactical teams this ability to "stay engaged" longer was a weighted argument and 30 years ago you saw a decline in scatterguns on tactical teams
HUH??? staying engaged??? In a HD scenario??? are you serious?? If you can't end the situation with the basic shotgun and its 5-8 rounds, you have a lot of issues

00 Buck of a variety of flavors, at typical HD/SD distances WILL stop the threat and end the problem VERY quickly. Anyone thinking otherwise has their tinfoil hat on too tight
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Old September 11, 2010, 05:47 PM   #9
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I don't see the use for pistol caliber carbines given all the compact 223s that are around. There was a push for the former when it was thought by some agencies that 223s were too militarisitic in public opinion and/or their government (city, state) went along with that.

But the inability to deal with body armor as in North Hollywood argued against the pistol round. I recall that when the Ruger 9s and 40 long arms were being pushed, I read a review that acknowledged the problem but said well - with the better accuracy, you could the guy in the leg. Oh, well.

So, the classic debate is 223 vs. 12 gauge. The argument from the latter is usually its awesome stopping power, the scary sound of the rack and you don't have to aim it. However, users know it's not that easy and the shotgun takes some skill also.

Either gun works if you know how to use it for most HD. Probably the North Hollywood guys aren't coming to your house. Just avoid the 12 gauge argument as the hammer of Thor for the unskilled.
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Old September 11, 2010, 07:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
HUH??? staying engaged??? In a HD scenario??? are you serious??
Yes, I am very serious, and if you were you would have carefully read my post and remembered it HAD TO do with tactical teams in Law Enforcement. The issue presented was a comparison of carbine vrs scattergun. A limitation of capacity and a limitation of range HAVE always been a down side of fighting scatterguns, in war and on the street. If you don't know that then I will move over and you can try the tinfoil hat on for size.
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Old September 11, 2010, 08:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Less collateral damage when using a single projectile versus a scattergun.

Less stopping power.

There's advantages and drawbacks.
If it is in a house you should see how little damage 12 gauge bird shot does after it passes through 2 layers of sheet rock (like the wall of your home) when compared to a 45. Then you break out buck shot and slugs and you can see that a 12 gauge is much more versatile in what it is capable of.
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Old September 11, 2010, 08:59 PM   #12
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I don't see the use for pistol caliber carbines given all the compact 223s that are around. There was a push for the former when it was thought by some agencies that 223s were too militarisitic in public opinion and/or their government (city, state) went along with that.
Short .223s have serious drawbacks.

1. Muzzle flash.
Short .223 guns have very large muzzle flash vs pistol caliber carbines, even with a flash hider. Blinding yourself during a HD situation is not good.

2. Noise.
Getting my data from Silencerresearch.com here. A .357 mag or 9mm rifle meters unsuppressed at about 152 to 155 dB. A 16" M4 type rifle meters unsuppressed at 165 db. That's 10 times louder than the pistol calibers. So you're deafening yourself more with a .223 and the additional concussion can be extremely disorienting.

Quote:
But the inability to deal with body armor as in North Hollywood argued against the pistol round. I recall that when the Ruger 9s and 40 long arms were being pushed, I read a review that acknowledged the problem but said well - with the better accuracy, you could the guy in the leg. Oh, well.
A 12 gauge can't penetrate Kevlar either. A .223 can of course, but 9mm AP can as well.

As for PCC vs 12 gauge. I like PCCs for several reasons.

Ammunition costs. 9mm is far cheaper than 12 gauge. Far easier for someone to stock a decent amount of 9mm ammunition than 12 gauge.

Ammunition interchangeability. This is a BIG issue for people who are not "gun people", but realize the utility of owning a gun. I worked at the gun counter at Wal-Mart for several years. There are a large number of non-hunter people who want a rifle more powerful than a 22, but don't want to have to stock another round. Quite a large number of people own a 9mm or 40 S&W pistol and see a 9mm or 40 S&W PCC as an attractive option. Why stock 500 rounds of 9mm and 500 rounds of .223 when you can stock 1,000 rounds of 9mm and not have to worry about running out of ammo for one weapon.

Magazine interchangeability. Not as important as ammunition interchangeability, but a bonus if possible. Many people I talked to did not consider magazine interchangeability that important. Ammunition interchangeability was FAR more important. Quite a few people owned Hi-Point carbines and a non-Hi-Point autoloader. Mags are cheaper than ammunition.

Recoil. Followup shots are quicker with a PCC. Yes each shot does less so you have to pick what you want.

Longer Range. Buckshot maxes out at about 50 yards. Slugs can do 100, but who is gonna practice at that range? I sure don't have the money to do that. A PCC will do 100-125 yards easy and with practice can be used at longer distances.

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
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Old September 11, 2010, 09:05 PM   #13
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Why do people worry about bullet proof vests so much? That ranks up there with car crashing into the house while I'm sleeping probability.
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Old September 11, 2010, 09:25 PM   #14
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PCC vs. 12 Ga.

I have NO DOUBT that I can wield a Pistol Caliber Carbine better and faster than a 12 Ga in just about any situation.

Having used both a 9mm Pistol Caliber Carbine and a 12 ga at local 3 gun matches, my split times from target to target are undoubtedly FASTER with my PCC than my 12 ga. My follow up shots are also MUCH FASTER as my split times were FANTASTIC.

The bonus is that 9mm is much easier to reload than .223, as the case prep is much easier. It's also cheaper to load 9mm than .223 and therefore I can shoot it more.

The fact that my 9mm AR uses GLOCK mags, is another big bonus, in my opinion.
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Old September 11, 2010, 10:01 PM   #15
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Why do people worry about bullet proof vests so much? That ranks up there with car crashing into the house while I'm sleeping probability.
No idea. Kevlar doesn't change the second law of motion. A 95 mph fastball has 87 foot pounds of energy. A 9mm has about 400 foot pounds. Someone who is wearing common Level II armor is not going to be feeling well even if the round doesn't penetrate. If they aren't on drugs they are going to be looking for an exit. If they are on drugs chances are they sold the Kevlar long ago. The lower recoil means quicker shots.

During the Hollywood shootout even though the 9mm slugs from officers pistols did not penetrate, both shooters were suffering serious blunt force trauma that degraded their effectiveness as time went on. IIRC they had Level III-A type protection. A 9mm PCC still wouldn't have penetrated, but it would have allowed far more hits to be delivered.

So it's all about trade offs. Are the advantages of a PCC worth the drawbacks? That is something each individual has to determine. All I know is that when I get woken up at 3AM and I'm standing up, half awake wondering who the heck is in my house, I'm probably not going to be ready to deal with the recoil of a 12 gauge or the muzzle flash of a .223.

You can also handload or buy some subgun loads that will penetrate some of the lower end Kevlar out of a PCC because of the velocity. If you're THAT worried about it. Or you can just use a .223 and deal with the extra noise and flash.
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Old September 12, 2010, 08:55 AM   #16
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I think youre deceiving yourself if you think someone wearing a vest is just going to stop what they are doing and run away when you shoot them.

While there is some blunt force trauma, its generally not as bad as youre making out, and usually will not stop the person being shot, from making instant and effective return fire on you.

Check out Rick Davis's video, "Second Chance vs the Cop Killers". It may open your eyes to a few things about vests and what they can and cant do, and there is also a lot of other stuff in there thats pretty entertaining too. He has a number of cops in the video giving testimonials, that were shot while wearing his vests who survived, and many of them instantly returned fire to do so. Rick started Second Chance, and shoots himself and has others shoot him, while hes wearing one, on numerous occasions, and he responds instantly afterwards by picking up a gun, and shooting targets nearby.

Other than maybe some of the old KTW rounds, I dont know of any 9mm that will penetrate a 9mm rated vest in the "protected" area, +P+, "SMG" or what.


If the person in your house is wearing armor, chances are, hes there for a purpose other than just stealing your stuff, and if he is, I would assume youre already on board and have the proper weapon close by.
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Old September 12, 2010, 10:01 AM   #17
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I just think the carbines are a ton of fun at the range. They can certainly be used for HD if needed.

One thing I'll point out is their compact size compared to your average pump shotgun, even with an 18" barrel. My friend pointed out you can just keep pulling the trigger if necessary, something you can't do with the pump.

I wouldn't trust my HiPoint for HD as it's broken several times, but if I had something like the Beretta in 45, I wouldn't hesitate to keep it bedside at night.
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Old September 12, 2010, 10:37 AM   #18
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My preference is for a handgun. Easier to handle in tight confines, easier to store closer to where I sleep. I do have a 12 gauge loaded with 00 buckshot in the closet.

I really can't see needing a 30 round magazine for home defense. But, just in case drug crazed hoards attempt to breach my middle-class home, I also have an unloaded AR with loaded mag in the same closet.
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Old September 12, 2010, 12:45 PM   #19
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Two different questions...

Quote:
Think of its potential use.
Lots. Plinking, short range hunting, pest control, sport, and even home defense.

Quote:
Then wonder what it would do in a self-defense scenario that couldn't be done better by a 12 gauge shotgun.
Not much.

And that is becuase a self defense/home defense scenario is radically different from SWAT entry team assaults, police use, or hollywood fantasies.

Large magazine capacity and range are the advantages over the shotgun. And for a civilian in self defense, these are rather moot points. Providing you own cover fire is a great thing to watch in the movies, but in real life, you are responsible for every round you fire, with no govermental agency behind you to pay your legal costs.

Range is moot, because, face it, how far away is the threat? 60-80yd (and longer) are doable with a pistol caliber carbine, but in a self defense situation, are you going to be justified shooting someone that far away? I just don't see that as likely. Unlikely to actually know they are a deadly threat (and so justifying deadly force response) until they are much closer, where the shotgun is useful tool.

And if you did shoot closer, and now they are running away, even though you might be able to hit them at 50yds plus, you aren't justified in shooting.
No matter how much you might want to.

Anything works for across the room, or the barn, but for self defense, the range of a rifle usually isn't a big factor.

The pump 12ga is an American cultural icon. And it works. And they can be made as handy as a pistol caliber carbine. They just kick more and hold fewer rounds. I think the effectiveness is pretty obvious.

If your plan is to blaze away and hold 'em off until the cavalry arrives, the larger capacity of the pistol caliber carbine is a useful thing. Other than that, I don't see a benefit over the shotgun. If you are in a place where blazing away isn't a good idea, (and who isn't?) the 12 ga makes better sense, to me.
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Old September 12, 2010, 01:11 PM   #20
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Quote:
The pump 12ga is an American cultural icon.
I totally agree, besides that, as I have said in many posts, the shotgun IS the personal defense weapon that timed our American west. Put game on the table, removed predators, defended the homestead with equal success.

The shotgun is the gun pictured over western frontier hearths and doors, there is a good reason for that.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old September 12, 2010, 02:06 PM   #21
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I think youre deceiving yourself if you think someone wearing a vest is just going to stop what they are doing and run away when you shoot them.
A criminal has nothing to gain by getting into a gunfight with a homeowner. If anything it's to buy them for time to get out. If I was a cop out on patrol that would be a very valid concern though.

Quote:
While there is some blunt force trauma, its generally not as bad as youre making out, and usually will not stop the person being shot, from making instant and effective return fire on you.
I never said it was. I was just pointing out that they are going to feel something though. Besides, anything short of a direct hit to the brainstem is going to result in someone who is going to be able to deliver return fire in some form, the 86 shootout showed that definitively.

I think I've seen Rick Davis's video in the past at some point. The name does ring a bell. It indeed is a good video if it's the one I'm thinking of.

If they are coming in looking for a fight they'll be wearing hard armor anyway which will stop a .223.

Worrying about a BG wearing kevlar now is not that high of a priority unless you're worried about cops knocking down your door. I would place far higher considerations on having a gun that you can accurately fire under less than ideal conditions and not have the gun totally blind and deafen you.

I've love to say that I'm some hardbutt who can wake from a dead sleep and 5 seconds later be emptying my 12 gauge into a squad of BGs, but one needs to be realistic of ones own abilities.. I know that the flash from my .223 blinds me at night and I'm not confident in my ability to handle the recoil of a 12 gauge when I'm still half asleep. My PC-40 and PC-9 neither blind be nor kick me hard so for me they are a viable option.

That's my personal opinion and it's worth what ya paid for it.

Quote:
Other than maybe some of the old KTW rounds, I dont know of any 9mm that will penetrate a 9mm rated vest in the "protected" area, +P+, "SMG" or what.
My "Blue-9" 9x19 load stands a good chance of doing that on some of the common stuff. It's a low +P load. 115 grain FMJ slug at 1550 fps out of a carbine. I originally made those loads for flatter shooting at longer range, I only realized that "side effect" later. I might buy some test panels from BulletProofMe.com to test and see what happens. My guess is that they probably will penetrate a II-A.

Of course people could just use a Tokarev in 7.62x25.
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Old September 12, 2010, 03:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
From time to time, get to thinking about buying a carbine chambered for either a 45 ACP or 10mm Auto. Get to looking at the options available. Think of its potential use.

Then wonder what it would do in a self-defense scenario that couldn't be done better by a 12 gauge shotgun.

So the interest in a 45 ACP carbine passes.
You lose pinpoint accuracy in comparison, and you lose the number of rounds available. the point is which one are you more comfortable with? My personal choice would be to use the shotgun but if I was limited to one gun or the other I might well go for the carbine for the versatility of it.
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Old September 12, 2010, 05:19 PM   #23
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Maybe in between a pistol and rifle round. The M1 Carbine was highly thought of for house to house work by American GI's. Was the weapon carried by Audie Murphy who used it to good effect.

I think my DPX loaded Auto Ord. carbine will solve any real or imagined stopping power issues that seem to be the subject of debate. While mine is used mostly for a grab and go car gun, I think it's a great HD gun as well.
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Old September 12, 2010, 06:22 PM   #24
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Perhaps in the 21th cent, the AR platform will become the American Gun as compared to the cowboy era. Certainly, sales and the use in competitions an hunting argue for that. The NSSF is pushing that angle as are some gun writers - like Gresham. People coming back from the wars will buy as SD guns.

That will defuse the negative image of such that psychological research and political decisions indicate. Note some studies clearly show that the pure hunting type have negative feelings on these guns. The Zumbo incident is an instantiation of such in the gun world.

The development of the AR in the SD and hunting world - which research shows are two different but slightly overlapping cultures - may innoculate the body politic against new AWBs and the like.

Thus, I conclude that if you want a long arm for SD - get the AR.

That said, I have both an AR and 1300 ready to go with appropriate SD ammo. Bring on the meth-terrorist-zombie-mutant-bikers.
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Old September 12, 2010, 11:07 PM   #25
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In the country of the blind....

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Quote:
The M1 Carbine was highly thought of for house to house work by American GI's.
The little carbine was highly thought of because of the choices the GIs had, it was the best. M1 Garand, BAR, Tommy Gun, and 1911A1. The M1 carbine has advantages over all these for house to house work. Shorter and handier than the long guns, about half the weight of a Thompson. Given the available choices, its a good one. The M3 grease gun is also not a bad choice, but the carbine has advantages over it also. A solid buttstock, and better range for a couple.
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