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Old September 5, 2010, 08:45 PM   #1
teumessian_fox
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Can I ship a shotgun to my son in California?

How would that work? I ship it to a FFL and then he treats it like any other purchase/transfer? 10 day wait and all?
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Old September 5, 2010, 10:51 PM   #2
natman
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Yep. Make sure that the shotgun in question is not considered an "assault weapon" in CA and that the CA FFL will accept a shipment from an individual.
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Old September 6, 2010, 01:08 PM   #3
smoakingun
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Thumbing through the atf rule book, the issue of shipping arms across state lines is addressed only as a retail sale issue that requires an ffl, the issue of gifting from one individual to another is not mentioned needing an ffl.

The issue is the same as me purchasing a firearm as a gift. When filling out the atf paperwork, I still have to declare the firearm is for me.
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Old September 6, 2010, 01:55 PM   #4
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoakingun
Thumbing through the atf rule book, the issue of shipping arms across state lines is addressed only as a retail sale issue that requires an ffl, the issue of gifting from one individual to another is not mentioned needing an ffl....
Actually, applicable federal law covers any transfer of possession.

ATF FAQs -- http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unli...censed-acquire (emphasis added)
Quote:
...Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]...
And the underlying statutes (emphasis added) --
Quote:
18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;...
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Old September 6, 2010, 03:50 PM   #5
smoakingun
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Quote:
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence
bequest is defined as "the act of bequeathing"
bequeath is defined as "1) to leave (property) to another by last will and testament. 2) to hand down, to pass on

for a family member to pass on possesion of a firearm to another family member, regardless of state lines, is a legal act so long as possesion of the firearm is legal in the reciepients state
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Old September 6, 2010, 07:34 PM   #6
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoakingun
...bequest is defined as "the act of bequeathing"
bequeath is defined as "1) to leave (property) to another by last will and testament. 2) to hand down, to pass on

for a family member to pass on possesion of a firearm to another family member, regardless of state lines, is a legal act so long as possesion of the firearm is legal in the reciepients state...
I'm sorry, but no, that is not correct.

[1] The term "bequest" is a technical term in law with a very specific meaning. The meaning in law of "bequest" is: ""...the gift of personal property under the terms of a will...." (http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=56, emphasis added).

[2] We need to look at the context in the statute as well, and the use of the word "bequest" in context is consistent with according it the narrow, legal meaning.

The statute provides an exception under 18 USC 922(a)(3) and (5) when a firearm is lawfully acquired by bequest (a gift under a will) or intestate succession (the distribution under applicable laws of decent of the property of someone who has died without a will). Therefore it appears that Congress intended the exception to apply when someone acquires a firearm which belonged to someone who has died and that acquisition takes place through the process of the court supervised probate of a will or through the court supervised administration of the estate of a person who has died without a will and whose property is being distributed according to the applicable laws of intestate succession.
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Old September 6, 2010, 09:14 PM   #7
smoakingun
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I fail to see how the text of the law negates the full meaning of the word bequest. In order to fully understand context you have to examine fully the time period in which the text was written, and in 1968 I have doubts that the writers intended to place limits on relatives in one state recieving firearms from another. At that time it would have been common place to see that kind of gifting.

An online law dictionary that leaves out the full definition of a word, does not negate the existance of the rest of the definition.

As a side, I am not making this arguement because I feel like I have to win an arguement. I just feel that our government does enought to regulate us, and when we begin narrowing definitions of words to further add to our restrictions, we do ourselves a disservice
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Old September 6, 2010, 09:30 PM   #8
mikejonestkd
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Is there any reason that he can not just loan it to his son, as long as it is legal in the state that the son lives in? Shipping it would be an issue, but could he hand deliver it to his son as a loaner?
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Old September 6, 2010, 09:42 PM   #9
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoakingun
I fail to see how the text of the law negates the full meaning of the word bequest....
No doubt you do. But the simple fact is that you are not a lawyer.

ETA: I should probably also point out that many times a word will have one or more meanings in common usage, but a more specific meaning in a particular usage. In this case, when a lawyer, or judge, sees the word "bequest" in the context of a transfer of property, he will understand it in its strict legal sense, i. e., a gift of personal property under a will. It may be that in casual conversation the word will be accorded a broader meaning; but in a statute, in a legal document and in court, it will mean only a gift of personal property under a will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoakingun
...I am not making this arguement because I feel like I have to win an arguement. I just feel that our government does enought to regulate us, and when we begin narrowing definitions of words to further add to our restrictions, we do ourselves a disservice ...
No, you do the OP a disservice by suggesting your novel and unlearned interpretation of the law.

If this father were to do as you suggest and then get caught sending, or trying to send, this shotgun directly to his son, he will be arrested and charged with a federal felony. And if this father were to plead innocence on the grounds that his gift to his son was a "bequest", he would be convicted and quite possibly spend some time in federal prison and/or pay a large fine and lose the right to ever again possess a gun.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; September 7, 2010 at 10:23 PM.
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Old September 6, 2010, 09:59 PM   #10
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikejonestkd
Is there any reason that he can not just loan it to his son, as long as it is legal in the state that the son lives in? Shipping it would be an issue, but could he hand deliver it to his son as a loaner?
A loan would not work.

Under 18 USC 922(a)(5)(B), if the son came to visit the father, the father could loan the son the gun as long as the loan was temporary and for a lawful sporting purpose. But the son could use the gun only in the father's State of residence and could not take the gun home with him, for to do so would be a violation of 18 USC 922(a)(3).

Note that the "rent or loan" exception is found only under (a)(5) which deals only with a person transferring a gun to someone who resides in another State. There is no exception for "rental or loan" under (a)(3) which deals with someone acquiring a gun in a State in which he does not reside and transporting or receiving it in his State of residence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoakingun
...In order to fully understand context you have to examine fully the time period in which the text was written, and in 1968 I have doubts that the writers intended to place limits on relatives in one state recieving firearms from another...
Actually, Congress probably did.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 was enacted following the deaths by gunfire of three prominent and highly regarded public figures. It was, I strongly suspect, the intent of Congress to regulate as much as possible the interstate transfer of firearms.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; September 7, 2010 at 10:21 PM.
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