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Old September 5, 2010, 05:11 PM   #1
crimson30
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Gun vise for load development?

Long time lurker here... and I finally have a question out-in-left-field enough that I couldn't find the answer via search.

I am just getting into reloading/load development and I had always assumed that a gun vise is used to check for grouping during load development to maintain point of aim as best as possible. Is this not something people do? It looks like everyone just uses shooting rests... is that just the way it's done?

With my prior assumption, I went looking for a gun vises and from reviews on midway, it doesn't look like gun vises are suited for such a task. I was surprised not to find a gun vise that bolts to the bench and holds the rifle completely in place.
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Old September 5, 2010, 09:27 PM   #2
Jesse Tischauser
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I shoot off this CTK Precision rest and use it as a vice to work on my rifles.

CTK Precision
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Old September 5, 2010, 09:34 PM   #3
Casimer
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These are often referred to as machine rests, such as the Ransom Rest - http://www.ransomrest.com/

Caldwell makes one as well - http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...272&t=11082005
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Old September 5, 2010, 10:26 PM   #4
Jesse Tischauser
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I don't see the use in one of those vice rests as you can never mimic that type of situation with your hands. Who cares if a particular load is the most accurate in the vice but it kicks too much for me to hold onto. I don't sight in my guns on a rest or bags either. They always shoot differently. I sight in at the same pace/style that I shoot my gun in matches becasue that is the way it will be shot.
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Old September 6, 2010, 06:19 AM   #5
crimson30
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Thanks Casimer!

Figures that I had the terminology wrong.
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Old September 6, 2010, 07:51 AM   #6
dahermit
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"...Who cares if a particular load is the most accurate in the vice..." Virtually every hand loader. If you do not understand why, there is no point in explaining it to you.
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Old September 6, 2010, 05:18 PM   #7
kraigwy
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I don't use "gun vices", I check my loads the way I'm gonna shoot them. Normally I use the high power positions to develop my loads. Setting, Prone, etc. using the sling un-supported.

Same with my hunting rifles. But I don't shoot 3-5 round groups, I shoot 10-20 round groups.

It gives me a better ideal what is gonna happen in a match or in the field.
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Old September 6, 2010, 07:55 PM   #8
4runnerman
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I use a home made rest for load development. You do need to find the load that is going to work the best in your gun. If you ar thinking of long range comp as i am,yes they do use rest's no vises though. It does you no good to have a load that will not shoot accurate, rest or no rest. A rest is the one most important tools in load deveopment. With out it---Is it the Bullet? is it the load?? Is it the gun?? is it me??..See what i mean.. Once you find that sweet spot as it's called then you have narrowed it down to you. Long range comp shooters use sandbags,rests,or bipods. To think some one can hold a gun still enough to shoot at say 800 yards and match bullet hole is insane. I have recently gotten in to the extreame long range shooting(500 to 1000) yards. It is a blast and extreamly difficult to do.To shoot 100 or 300 yards is par for the course(takes alot of talant) but to shoot at 500 to 1000 is mind boggeling and a learning expirence.Put away all things you know about shooting 100 yards and welcome to wind,bullet coeificency(sp), and breathing. I hear lots of people saying i have 1 inch groups and 100 yards,that is ok for deer hunting and stuff,but to take a prairie dog 500 to 1000 yards is a whole different game. A 1 inch group at 100 yards is a 4 foot miss at 1000 yards. It all depends on what ya want to do and how well you want to do it. Use the rest,fnd the load then practice free hand with it.Why make it harder than it needs to be.

Just my 2 cents

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Old September 6, 2010, 08:04 PM   #9
4runnerman
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Kraigwy.. Every Sniper i watch in comp uses some form of a rest whether it be a bipod,the ground,a window sill,ect,ect. You use no rest at all?. You must be an awesome shot.Got time to teach me???..Like i said i have recently gotten into extreame long range shooting,while im doing ok and learning i still have a long ways to go.I have just( 2 months ago) got my first custome made rifle.accu-trigger,comp stock,aluminum embedded,28 inch stainless steal bull barrel with a 1 in 7 twist. 300 yards got to be boring real fast. I would welcome any tips or pointers you could offer

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Old September 6, 2010, 09:33 PM   #10
kraigwy
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Quote:
Kraigwy.. Every Sniper i watch in comp uses some form of a rest whether it be a bipod,the ground,a window sill,ect,ect. You use no rest at all?. You must be an awesome shot...
This is funny, sorry, I should have explained myself better. I believe you should sight in a rifle, develop loads, etc, the way you are going to shoot it.

I'm not in the game (sniping) any more, and yes I've use some sort of rest in the past, be it sand bags, door window, or hood of a police car,etc. That's not how I sighted in the gun. I do that, as mentioned in my earlier post.

Let me give you an example. Lets say I'm sighting in for a new high power load. I don't shoot a few 3 or 5 round groups. I like to shoot 10-20 rounds (the more the better) at a 300 yard rapid fire target (anyone can slope them in at 200, beyond 300 you're tested the shooters ability to judge wind and conditions).

What I do, is put my gun on its mechanical zero. Then shoot a string at the target. I then draw a line down the center of the target, then a line across the center of the target giving me 4 quarters (much like pattering a shotgun). I then deduct from wind (the wind was recorded before I shot), moving the vertical like over one way or the other depending on the wind call.

I then count the shots in each quarter, and make my adjustments accordingly. I then like to shoot again (10-20 shot strings) and to confirm or make any corrections. When I get an equal number of shots in each quarter, I'm sighted in.

In all seriousness, I want to add, when you take a good sling un-supported position, you get your natural point of aim. Closing your eyes, have someone work the bolt, dry fire, and when you open your eyes you should have your sight picture, A good sling position will allow you to fall back into position. I've never seen that with a bipod, sandbag, car hood, etc. You bounce had have to adjust for the next shot. Think about it, and if you are honest with your self, you'll agree. I don't expect or want an response to this paragraph, just think about it when you are shooting and see if I'm right.

Shooting 3-5 round groups tell me nothing about how a rifle or ammo will preform in a HP match. Shooting 300 yards, in the position the match calls for does.

I want to add, you need to do the above for what ever position you shoot. An example my Setting RF zero at 200 yards is two minutes different then my 200 yards off hand zero. My zero in RF Prone at 300 yards is different then shooting the same target slow fire prone. I think the main reason is that I tend to bleed into the black a bit in rapid fire, regardless, the zero is different.

I do the same thing for my hunting rifles, I'll either shoot prone, sitting (all too often in cactus) or offhand when hunting.

I believe you should sight rifle/ammo in like you are gonna shoot it. A perfect example is you see lots of talk about little bitty sub min. groups, but you don't see that many cleaned 600 or 1000 yard targets with a service rifle. The X-10 ring is about 2 MOA. I've seen quite a few rapid fire cleans, and have shot several my self, but again thats 2 MOA.

Quote:
Got time to teach me???..
YOU BET, granted I don't shoot as well as I use to when I shot for the Guard, I don't take it serious anymore, but I'm still a pretty dern good coach. I could pretty much guarantee I can help anyone who is serious about learning. I'm more into CMP Vintage Rifle shooting now, but I still put on High Power and CMP GSM clinics. I don't charge for the clinics so its safe to say, I guarantee my coaching or I will give you your money back.
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Last edited by kraigwy; September 6, 2010 at 09:42 PM.
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Old September 8, 2010, 07:23 PM   #11
dahermit
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Use a benchrest/ransom rest.

The OP stated that his primary concern was load development via hand loading.
Quote:
...I am just getting into reloading/load development...
From that perspective, using a bench rest or a ransom rest (if you can afford it), for checking loads/shooting groups is appropriate.
Shooting high count shot groups as suggested in the subsequent posts is not a practical alternative for using rests.
For instance if I were desire a target load for a 30-06, after referencing Lyman's 48, I find that there are several traditional powders appropriate to the 30-06 as well as several new ones that show great promise.
Sticking with just the traditionals, using a 168 grain Sierra target bthp bullet, IMR4895, IMR4064, IMR4350, and IMR4831, between the starting loads and maximum for each powder, using .5 grain increments, the number of rounds for a five shot group (shot from bench rest or ransom rest),for each would result in having to load and shot 215 rounds. Now multiply that by 10 for ten shot groups (2150 rounds) or 20 for 20 shot groups(4300 rounds).
Therefore, substituting round count for fewer, but shot from a rest is a more reasonable method.
However, if you are a target shooting who has already found his rifle's favorite load, or if you purchase target ammo instead of hand load, or if you are perfecting your shooting technique, bench rest/pistol rest is pointless. But, that is not what the OP was interested in, not what would happen in a match or in the field. He wants to be able to evaluate the load, nothing else at this point.
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