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Old August 22, 2010, 06:28 PM   #26
BGutzman
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Id go with the SIG..... not the Glock.... but thats me.
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Old August 22, 2010, 07:18 PM   #27
animal
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So.....how does one become friends with a local LEO?
I’m sure the cops can answer that one better, but here’s my take.

Any number of ways. I have the good fortune to work in the worst areas in town, so most of my contact comes from that.
Charity work is another good way. Some groups of cops/ depts. have pet charity projects that you can volunteer to help with if you like the goals of the charity.
Help them out by reporting in person if you see really suspicious activity somewhere. You never know when a detective might be watching a drug house or wondering where it was moved to … and you happened to see a drop.
Stop and offer assistance when you see a wreck, and stay to put your name down as a witness when the cops get there.

The same way you make friends with anyone outside of your "normal circle" … alter your circle to include them, show them who you are, and if they want to be your friend, it’ll happen … polite small-talk when you happen to run into them and they’re not busy, help ‘em out without getting in the way, avoid jokes about donuts when talking to the fat ones (just thought I’d slip that in).

I dunno if I’ve ever run into a cop at a private range except when taking instructor classes with them, or at a match… Run into ‘em pretty regularly at gun shops though.
My experience with cops hasn’t been 100% favorable, but the in the vast majority of cases it has been ... let’s say 99% for the heck of it. No guarantees in anything, but there are safe bets.

Buying a Glock ? … evil is never justified by good intentions…. just kidding, just kidding …
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Old August 22, 2010, 07:32 PM   #28
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@animal, I just used up some good material. There's REGULAR hand to hand drug deals occurring behind my office building, often in front of my parked car. I try not to park back there but when I do and I see them, I try not to let them see me noticing them. As a result, I've been a crappy witness. I called Drugs and Vice last week to make a report of a series of different individuals behind my building. Now I don't park there. Seems stupid. The lady on the phone wasn't LEO, just took some kind of general report and put in a "request for additional" whatever whatever. I also made an online report of all the gang tagging that's new in the area. I DO however, have a local officer coming to see me at my office at 9 AM tomorrow. He seems nice via phone tag. I have specific safety questions for him. If I was a dude, this might be easier to friend LEO. As a chic, most of my social interactions with them, while they're writing up my statement about the stuff stolen from my car has been around their wives, what's a Beekman briefcase, my wife likes Coach, etc. Gotta change my tactics. I DO spend way too much time in guns shops. But that tends to be expensive given my poor impulse control. My most previous instructor trains LEO and we're friendly. I'm hoping that will bloom into me friending LEO as well. He's in need of my services, but I had to decline Gave him bullets instead.
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Old August 22, 2010, 08:46 PM   #29
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It’s better to be a crappy witness than for the druggies to suspect you of ratting them out. I didn’t mean go looking for trouble … just be willing to report what you happen to see. You sure don’t want to have to worry about them too.("hand to hand" passes are small potatoes anyway. would be shocking to me if more than a rock or two and money pass at the same point if they're doing that ... instead of the money/signal/ pick-up-at-second-spot routine)

I would have gone to the cop-shop in person and just talked to the detective on duty… face to face contact with at least 3 people usually, and avoiding open contact with the cops in the neighborhood. Maybe your local PD doesn’t work that way, dunno. He’ll probably leave you his card and tell you to call him if you see more of the stuff going on … again, DON’T go looking for it … please.

Change tactics? Sounds like you’re hunting or something. Just be yourself. Real friendships come naturally that way. Geez, If this crusty, hard-headed, SOB (to put it nicely as possible), can make friends without trying, anybody can. The key for me is exposure to higher numbers and being open to friendship rather than hunting, I think. Besides, if the cop thinks he’s being hunted, there’s a good chance he’s gonna wonder why … and what you’re hunting for. Confusion could be bad. jmo.

A suggestion for gaining time if a guy tries to come around a desk… Not quite a spike-board, but it’s already there and legal. Pull out the side drawer as you turn to go the other way. Only gains a fraction of a second, but might help.
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Last edited by animal; August 22, 2010 at 09:29 PM.
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Old August 22, 2010, 10:17 PM   #30
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Yeah now that I think I through, I doubt it will happen. We are all in our roles when we meet each other, and that doesn't naturally progress to friendship. Unless I meet them shooting and we shares guns, it's unlikely occur. I've never friended someone with an agenda, with the exception shooting male buddies. And that's explicitly stated. Feels kind of creepy. If someone wanted to friend me for what I do, I'd be worried and see it a mile away anyway. Nice thought, but unless it falls from the sky, unlikely to happen.

On the desk drawer thing, good point. The desk one isn't in a place to be useful, but I do have a large filing cabinet that could be helpful. Also, if I can't get out of the office, that means I'm trapped at my desk. I'd hit the panic button and maybe crawl under the desk and pull the chair in front of me? Hopefully I'd be able to talk them down in they're blocking the door. Or throw what they want, or what they might want at them, so they take it and run.
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Old August 22, 2010, 10:38 PM   #31
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What about hair spray? I have a little can in my purse often anyway. I know it sucks when I get it in my eyes! Should I add this to the non-weapon things I'm going to spray, shoot, push, and throw at the BG?
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Old August 23, 2010, 01:46 AM   #32
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Lots of good suggestions in this thread. If I were in a position that I needed to meet with possibly dangerously unbalanced people on a regular basis, I'd do most of the stuff suggested here. I'd definitely get some pepper foam and get somebody to show me how to use it. (In my case, my brother-in-law, who is a police officer, showed me how to use pepper spray properly.) I'd also set up a series of other non-lethal defense methods, probably including the fire extinguisher.

And, assuming I didn't already have my concealed carry permit and a gun, I would get both. It's a pity that so many people in some geographic locations and some circles view gun ownership as a sign of badness, but I would *not* let their irrational prejudice keep me from being able to defend myself properly against a threat to my life.

In other words, what you're doing already. :-)
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Old August 23, 2010, 04:45 AM   #33
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The OP scene described Siggy in a chair, in front of her is a coffee table, beyond that is an agitated person sitting on a couch.

This scene does not lend itself to fire extinguishers, pepper spray, bug spray, or like devices, unless such devices are in view of Agitated Person. Gun can be at hand but not on person. How quickly can a fire extinguisher be unleashed? pepper spray? those like devices? None in less than one half second.

Where is the gun? Probably not a good idea to have it out in view of Agitated Person. Odd to be allowed at hand but not on person. Which means probably not attainable is less than one half second.

Agitated Person can be across coffee table in one half second. After Panic Button is installed with ten minutes response time that means Agitated Person has nine minutes, fifty-nine and one half seconds to make disaster on Siggy and use all said devices against her instead of vice versa.

This job places a lone female in a potentially dangerous situation with no immediate protection? no barrier between lone female and possible attacker? proposed Panic Button with ten minutes response time? lone female does not have option of a different job?

Siggy, you’re holding Jack high against a pair of Aces.
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Old August 23, 2010, 08:36 AM   #34
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During your interviews have a pen and notebook with you, if you get attacked stab them in the eye. An eye injury will take someone out of commision more effectively than a hit to the groin, and its easier to achieve in a struggle. It will at least slow down the attack so you can flee the room while the police respond to you panick button. It is also easier to explain away if you get accused of over reacting: "I just tried to push him away, I didn't even realize the pen was in my hand!" This also works with car keys, nothing says that when you punch someone in self defense you have to check your fist first to make sure your 3" car key isn't protruding from between your 2nd and 3rd fingers. (Except on your way to the car your gun is a better weapon than keys!)
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Old August 23, 2010, 10:30 AM   #35
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fall out of the sky.. yeah, pretty much, but …unpredictable in any single instance, but the uncertainty of befriending someone decreases relative to the number of instances, so befriending someone becomes increasingly predictable as exposure to the quantity of people you meet increases.
As far as I can see, a perfectly acceptable tactic for befriending people of certain backgrounds would be to expose yourself to "their world" and simply act as yourself. Those in that "world" who see your entry into it as positive, would be naturally attracted to you, and the possibility of positive relationships open if the attraction is mutual. Chances are, you can put yourself in a position to meet as many as you care to without the creepiness of stalking anyone, or the idea of latching on to someone because they’re a cop. You just meet them because they’re cops, if befriending one or ten "falls out of the sky", that’s cool too. Yeah, it "just happens", but it happens all the time when you’re in the right place.

Hairspray, even the old AquaNet grandma used … nearly useless for defense. That little burn is nothing compared to a good pepper spray.
A steaming hot cup of coffee handy would be lots better, but still of little value against a determined attacker, except for gaining a little bit of time..

imo …Your # 1 "weapon" is going to be reading the possible attacker’s signals (verbal, body language, etc) so that you can talk him down, back off and let him relax, get a weapon in hand and use it in time, or "exit-stage-left". While I disagree with the half-second as being likely if you are watching for signals from him, it is possible and would really suck. Having stuff handy like the pen suggestion, keys, pepper, knife, et al., isn’t gonna automatically get you out of it. These things will only give you a chance to fight back, and only then if the opportunity to use them presents itself.
If you do choose to carry a knife, and since you aren’t trained with it, I’d suggest that it would be better if he felt it before he saw it, if you know what I mean. Same with just about any lethal weapon, imo.
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Old August 23, 2010, 10:55 AM   #36
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Yes Clay, I am. However, I can bluff and smooth talk like a mofo. The two most recent incidences I was involved in would have gone awry with another colleague with more testosterone, or who couldn't pull a lulling drawl out of her back pocket. And they have. I just talked to a colleague who was stabbed a few months ago. He had his carry on him. However, he comes off as a know it all and was probably posturing. Still, crazy world. I've also learned to listen acutely to the slightest rise of hair on the back of my neck or the voice in my head that says "something feels funky here" and start the de-escalation and exiting process smoothly and promptly.

Yes I know it sucks. But it is what it is. I'm seeking firearm skilled professional counsel and much further training. Also, I'll be very nice to the local LEO who will be in my office in twenty minutes. I even wore a skirt. My hope is that between smooth talking, I can get an extra few seconds to get to said fire extinguisher, pepper foam, lethal pen, panic button. It may not work but what other choice do I have?

As for more exposure to LE, still not quite sure how to do that. Gun shop sounds like it's the only likely area we'd bump into each other off duty. However, you'd be surprised how many great things and people have "fallen out of the sky" when needed. I'm still alive, right? I'd tell you some stories but it would compromise my safety. But suffice it to say, I should have been dead a few times now, but people and things "fell out of the sky." I'm hoping more luck will occur now that I have my new lucky charm, Sig P232. But just in case it doesn't work like that, I'll train like hell.

And Bill, my dad taught me that one since I was knee high. Thanks for the warm reminder. Even though I don't use car keys anymore, I walk to the car with them in my hand in that way, scanning along the way. He was in corrections.
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Old August 23, 2010, 01:49 PM   #37
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I would go for Raid wasp spray. No one will blink if it's laying around, sprays pretty far, and its a nice tight spray, (doesn't go everywhere) and the BG is likely going to have to go to the ER. Every woman in my family carries a can in their car for just this reason. Plus you get a lot of "bang for your buck".
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Old August 23, 2010, 02:35 PM   #38
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Siggy?

Without exactly knowing the dynamics of your job, or your clients I think you pretty much have the tiger by the tail.

After an experience like that I would (if possible) give personal security a little more consideration when shedualing appointments. Outside that possibility I might be a little quicker to call for some help when things first start to go south... Not after I realize that i've lost control of the situation. Another thing to consider is to feign illness, or natures call, and leave ...

The use of chemical sprays, firearms and other devices definately have their place. But in order to justify any of them you should have taken other precaution when your in your own element. IMO ultimately having a firearm is in order. Your life, and health is worth more than any job. LTL devices, and improvised weapons work well most of the time. Firearms usually have the final say.

As far as firearms... I personally would recomend a small, full weight, hamerless, or shrouded revolver. In the close quarters you describe I'd want that small revolver. A small revolver is more easily retained, and controlled in a physical altercation. Such a revolver has only smooth, and rounded surfaces that make it difficult for you adversary to gain a hold of. A small hidden hammer revolver can also be fired from almost any position you find yourself. In my own experience, based on the limited sight radius of a 2" revolver point shooting is more accurate than with a larger pistol or revolver. Further as you become more concerned about the situation a small hamerless, or shrouded revolver can be held in your hand while still in your purse, or jacket pocket keeping the B/G covered without him, or anyone else knowing it. Ultimately with this kind of a small revolver you can shoot through the purse or pocket repeatedly. God forbid this should happen... If you are attacked, and you are in close contact with the offenders body. A small revolver can be placed against the offenders body, and fired without malfunction. ( thats why they call them belly guns)

All the advice given is IMO good advice. I got a few good ideas from this thread myself.


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Old August 23, 2010, 08:50 PM   #39
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A shout out for local LE

Glenn, thanks for the "nature calls" one. I'll add that to the kit. And point taken on the revolver.

For anyone following, I met with local PD for an hour this AM. He was kind, patient and an excellent listener. Even though he didn't know a whole lot about my situation up front, he came prepared with multiple resources for me to check out. Off the top of his head he came up with many useful suggestions. Then he emailed me the preliminary report (very detailed despite little note taking) a few minutes ago, conveniently leaving out anything that could potentially backfire on me in the future and offered further suggestions. It felt good being able to give him a little back story about why the drug addicts are climbing the wall in the city at the moment, more than usual. Our jobs intersect a lot. At the end, I asked if there was anything I could do to be helpful to him or his department. He seemed surprised, dropped his role for a sec, and I could tell he was thinking about it. I reiterated the offer in the return email in case he comes up with something good. He signed first name only so @animal, we will see . I really do want to be helpful to local law enforcement. Their jobs are harder than mine and we are often helping or protecting the same people so I do feel for them. They've been nothing but accommodating every time I've interacted with them. IMHO, our professions don't talk enough. He provided a lot of detailed info about the local tagging and drug activity I've been watching, which eased my mind. And I provided pertinent info that seemed useful to him. It went well Even though many of you have figured out what I do for a living, I appreciate your discretion. As of yet, I'm not too searchable online. I'd like to remain so.
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Old August 23, 2010, 09:11 PM   #40
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Siggy
Gee, we must think alike because of the profession, I'm a corrections Sgt.
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Old August 23, 2010, 09:26 PM   #41
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Bill, that's funny. I can say I have been both blessed and cursed to be reared by a corrections officer who worked with mostly predatory sex offenders. He taught me some serious awareness and instructed me on gun safety and fun at a very young age. However, I might be a little more paranoid than the average woman, albeit, more prepared. Fortunately, once he hit the desk and rose the ranks in the legislature, things got more mellow. He got a lot of death threats against his kids. Must've been hard for him. I know it was hard on anyone coming to court me. They had to meet me at the house and get *thoroughly* checked out. I didn't get it at the time but now I do. It's not the strangers that tend to get us. It's the people we know. Though I've told him about my firearms hobby, I try to keep the scary stuff out because he's getting old.
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Old August 23, 2010, 09:54 PM   #42
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I understand. I struggle with how much I share with my kids (3 girls, 1 boy), I try to share enough so they're carefull, but not so much that they are afraid of life. It's a precarious position.
As far as the boys who show interest in my girls (17,15,13) I jokingly (but openly) refer to them as "fertilizer", and tell my girls they may have a future home in our pond or somewhere else on our property. It's become a family joke. But the boys don't know that!
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Old August 23, 2010, 10:03 PM   #43
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Bill,

LOL! Well I guess that's preferable to the "oh, I just happen to be cleaning my guns now" technique that would come into play on date night. He scared off quite a few from even asking me out! I don't think it was a particularly effective method for me, because I still wound up marrying nut cases and then had to process the whole overprotective dad thing for years. But I think it eased his anxiety and he did do the best he could with what he had. I hope your girls pick better partners. And I hope you taught them all how to shoot and appreciate a gun. They might find it irritating now but a few decades later, I clearly remember it fondly. See my post on "emotional ties." I talk about my dad there. There's a lot of baggage but a lot of love and it somehow got transferred onto my guns
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Old August 23, 2010, 10:25 PM   #44
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That's funny. I have a friend at work who actually used to make sure he was cleaning his M-14 when boys came over. 3 out of my 4 have showed an interest in guns (I won't push it on the 4th) and I just try to trust in their good judgement.
As far as your situation at work goes, as your dad probably told you, awareness is half the battle. And as long as you are ready for trouble at your job, whatever tools you choose to defend yourself are only as good as your readiness and willingness to employ them.
I have a feeling you'll be ready.
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Old August 24, 2010, 09:27 AM   #45
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Quote:
I have a feeling you'll be ready.
ditto.


There’s a lot of merit to revolver carry and especially those with a bobbed or shrouded hammer, as Glenn Dee pointed out. You might want to consider one because of their design features but imo, that’s something for you to decide according to what you’re comfy with.
My wife taught me a lesson there. Her favored pistol for carry is a slightly modified and slightly lightened .44 Bulldog. Due to her very small hands and light frame, I got it into my head that it was a little too much for her, and went through buying a series of pistols "more suitable" and "higher quality". She tried them all out, and handed more than one back dismissively (the two-fingered hold, like she was handing back a smelly bag of dog mess).
The only pistols she’s considered replacing it with have been a govt. model and a little .40 Astra, … and those weren’t ones that I bought for her to carry ! I’m glad she stuck with the revolver for several reasons, mostly what Glen said..
She can shoot tight groups quickly and she’s confident with it, even though she leaves every practice session with a bruised hand. The flinch that I expected to develop still hasn’t showed up after 20+ years. She’s had to pull it a couple of times, and all’s been well. It seems "right for her", even though I have a few reservations.

... now you guys are getting me on edge a bit. I still have a few years to go before I have to deal with fertilizer, but the girls are growing up fast … been kinda fantasizing about meeting the boys sniffin' around while cleaning my HK-91 or installing a ballistic box hidden in a basement wall … wife probably wouldn’t let me get radical, though … maybe a good thing, but doesn’t sound like much fun.
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Old August 24, 2010, 10:44 AM   #46
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The bottom line - there is no place for a gun in the situation you described. There is no immediate, life threatening danger to you - based on what you described.

1. You can get up and walk out of the door to your left. Tell him you feel sick and have to use the bathroom. Fake vomit, or whatever you have to do.
2. You can stay seated and calm - he hasn't made any threats toward you...yet.
3. Telephone for help? Yell for help?

Possibly use a stun gun device or spray foam mace if you have to and he trys to stop you from leaving. The best weapon you have in this situation is your brain - do what you've got to do to get away from the person.

Reasons why a gun is a bad idea in this scenario:
1. No immediate danger of life threatening bodily harm to you.
2. No attempt by you to walk away from the situation.
3. No verbal threats or otherwise made directly toward you.
4. Walls are thin in office settings - usually just thin drywall held in place by a few sheet-metal studs. You don't know where your missed shot(s) will end up.
5. Are you really ready to "shoot to kill" this guy? Sounds like he's got a problem or having a really bad day, but not there necessarily to do you any harm.
6. Killing someone in your office isn't going to be a great carreer move.
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Old August 24, 2010, 11:39 AM   #47
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@Skans, thanks for your thoughtful reply. This is how it's gone 100% of the time so far. My BRAIN is my best tool. Then my mouth for talking, my feet for walking. I've gotten out of sticky situations so far and I intend to minimize exposure to further ones and have a back up plan IN OFFICE for a threat of a level higher than what I've had before. I can't find a reasonable and safe way to use a firearm in the office and it's the last thing in the world I want to do. I've had many people on and offline say "shoot 'em" and when I raise objections they don't seem to get it. It took a bit for me to get to the point to be willing to use lethal force and one of the top three things I'm willing to use this for is MY JOB. More than likely if I use a firearm in my office, or was even seen with a firearm in my office, the powers that be will suspend and/or revoke my ability to do my job. Having sunk my entire life, my heart and a ton of $$ into this, I'm not willing to give it up. For those of you that have kids, think about this job as your kids. That's how I feel about protecting it.

That being said, out of the office, I'm willing to use my CCW or other deadly force if I have no other choice. The powers that be are unlikely to see it in the same light and hopefully I will remain alive and able to work.
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Old August 24, 2010, 12:03 PM   #48
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Google Marc McYoung his web site "Psycology of Self Defense" is a must read for everybody. In my opinion. Lots of stuff there and very long. Your on target to think through scenarios before they happen, just remember everyone you meet is not an enemy paranoia is not preparedness.
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Old August 24, 2010, 02:05 PM   #49
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Might I suggest a civilian version of the taser?

heres a link;
http://www.itaser.com/?__utma=1.1825...utmk=225449754
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Old August 24, 2010, 02:45 PM   #50
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In a close quarters situation with a stranger, then you should take into consideration the following:

- distance - try to keep the distance to the furthest extent possible

- barriers - see what you can do to place additional barriers in between you and the person, position a large desk between you and the stranger for example

- never stare at the stranger, but do not turn your back on them. keep a face of indifference neither smiling or showing anger

- every office space is required to have two exits. you should be properly positioned near one of the exits

Other then that, there is nothing you can do. Many retail establishments deal with the issue of security every day. Just try to be as nice as you can to the people who enter the office. Do not give them any reasons to attack you.
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