The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 19, 2010, 09:29 PM   #1
Xyas
Member
 
Join Date: July 2, 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 87
Reload or leave it?

I have a question for everyone. I carry a subcompact springfield xd 9mm handgun. I carry it with the 13 round magazines. Now if I have to use it, and incapacitate a person who is threatening my life (I pray this never happens), should I reload? When would you reload? If I only fired 2-3 shots, is it worth reloading with a different magazine?

For those that carry firearms with fewer rounds in it, when do you reload?

Any and all input is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Xyas is offline  
Old August 19, 2010, 09:56 PM   #2
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,564
If you remember the basics: you'll get along OK.

If you are not moving, . . . shoot or reload

If you are not reloading, . . . shoot or move

If you are not shooting, . . . move or reload

It's kinda the unwritten process by which you can keep your body more or less in one piece. Murphy can still get a piece of you, . . . but he has to work harder if you follow the above.

In your instance, it is inferred that the bg is down and bleeding, . . . you are waiting for the cavalry to arrive, . . . reload AND move away from the bg. Also observe 360 threat scan for his compadres.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 01:13 AM   #3
BfloBill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2010
Location: Buffalo, N.Y.
Posts: 443
When I trained they taught us to reload if the opportunity presents itself. If the mag you are taking out of the weapon is empty you drop it on the ground (so you don't accidentally reload an empty mag later). If the mag has some rounds left in it you stuff it in your pocket or belt (in case you run out of full mags-you go back to the partial mag).
Take into consideration this was based on starting with one full mag in the weapon and two on your belt.
BfloBill is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 07:48 AM   #4
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,898
Quote:
I carry it with the 13 round magazines. Now if I have to use it, and incapacitate a person who is threatening my life (I pray this never happens), should I reload?
I carry a .45 AMT Backup that holds 5+1 rounds and no extra magazine. If I have to shoot someone and they are incapacitated, I'm going to run and then call 911. What would be the point of reloading if your attacker is incapacitated?
Skans is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 08:05 AM   #5
PoorSoulInJersey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 220
Just make sure your attacker is incapacitated. You wouldn't want to be in the middle of reloading when he gets up and charges you.

Personally, I wouldn't reload from just 1 or 2 shots. The risk outweighs the benefits.
PoorSoulInJersey is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 08:22 AM   #6
WC145
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2008
Location: Downeast Maine
Posts: 1,456
Quote:
I carry a .45 AMT Backup that holds 5+1 rounds and no extra magazine. If I have to shoot someone and they are incapacitated, I'm going to run and then call 911. What would be the point of reloading if your attacker is incapacitated?
What's the point of running around with an empty or half empty gun? What if he recovers to such a degree that he can reengage? You don't know who or where his friends are, maybe the other guy that ran called his buddies and they're coming looking for you, maybe you're hit and you can't run, maybe, what if, maybe, what if, maybe...... Always carry at least one spare reload in case of malfunction or, God forbid, you use some or all of what's in your gun. When the smoke clears and you have a chance reload so you're topped off and ready for whatever might come next.

Remember, anything can happen, facing it with a fully loaded gun is always a good place to start when it does.
__________________
“Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.”
WC145 is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 11:30 AM   #7
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,898
Quote:
Always carry at least one spare reload ...
It's not so much that I disagree with this. I love large capacity guns and extra magazines. The problem is that I only pocket carry. And, keeping track of my keys, wallet and gun is more than enough for me. Hey, I'm just lazy that way. So, the easier I make it to grab my little .45 and stuff it into a pocket, the more I actually carry it. It's purely a matter of convenience for me.

I do keep an extra loaded magazine in my car, but it's just too much of a PITA for me to carry that around too.

My carry technique isn't the best, isn't the most "tactical", doesn't give me the round capacity that I really want, but I look at it this way: I have 6 more rounds of hot .45 defensive loads the way I carry than I would if I was set up for carrying a Glock or other type of gun w/ extra mags.
Skans is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 12:39 PM   #8
Mr. James
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 1,521
Hi, Skans,

I carry at least one spare 7- or 8-round mag for my Springfield Armory 1911 in my back pocket, right alonside my wallet. Since it's a nice, slim single-stack mag, it's innocuous, accessible, and no trouble at all. Were I carrying a five-shot weapon, I would most certainly carry spare magazines, plural. The chances of running into multiple assailants is quite real. Like misery, mookishness loves company.

Of course, you know your needs, predilections, possible threats far better than I.

God bless,

Bob James
__________________
"...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat
Mr. James is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 12:53 PM   #9
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
I carry a .45 AMT Backup that holds 5+1 rounds and no extra magazine. If I have to shoot someone and they are incapacitated, I'm going to run and then call 911. What would be the point of reloading if your attacker is incapacitated?
Glad you have it worked out that if you're in a gunfight, you'll unleash your five or six rounds and run away without having to stand and fight--making a reload unnecessary. Why bother to carry one?

Keeping one's gun topped off is a basic principle taught in the different courses I've taken. No detailed explanation as to why was thought necessary by instructors or students--at least no student ever asked. I guess when we did the malfunction drills where we needed our spare mags, it became obvious. Same during the shoot and move excercises.

Seems a guy named Clint Smith is always reminding his students that wolves travel in packs. And LA wasn't the only city where motorists where dragged out of the cars and beaten after a court decision didn't go the way some thought it should have.

Hope this isn't going to turn into another "the odds are it'll never happen thread".

Last edited by Nnobby45; August 20, 2010 at 12:58 PM.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 01:21 PM   #10
Hook686
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2005
Location: USA The Great State of California
Posts: 1,944
Different strokes for different folks for sure.

I find it hard to debate this rationalization, as I pocket carry a J-Frame. 5, but no +1. I am not of a mind to carry everything needed to fight every possible engagement that can be imagined. I'm not LEO, military, SWAT, Special Forces, nor do I imagine I am. I could no more conceive of all the possible nasty scenarios, and odds against me, than carry all the gear and equipment to deal with same.

As the man said, 'It's a matter of convience more than anything else.' A 5 shot J-Frame in the pocket works just fine for me. Will it save my bacon in all scenarios ? Of course not, but then that is true of all possible scenarios no matter how much hardware I lug around.

I really do not believe everyone carries all the hardware they say they do.
__________________
Hook686

When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.
Hook686 is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 02:45 PM   #11
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,776
I would always top up if the opportunity presents itself. Even if one BG is out of the fight, he may have friends nearby, or he may change his mind about being out of it.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 02:46 PM   #12
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,898
Quote:
if you're in a gunfight,
See, now there's the key phrase. I'm not going to be in any gunfight. I might have to use my gun if someone tries to mug me in a parking lot or while I'm getting money out of the ATM. I don't live in a big city and most attacks involve just one perp with maybe a 2nd waiting in a car. The realistic range of my weapon in a stress situation is about 15 feet, and I won't use it unless someone is within 10 feet of me.

Outside of my homestead, it's going to come down to my being able to deploy my gun quickly enough and squeeze off 2 solid hits. Inside of 10 feet, I'm pretty confident I can do that. If there are two attackers, I still think I'm still covered even with just 6 rounds.

For home defense, I have a much higher capacity weapon with an extra magazine - 40 rounds aught to cover that.

There is no way for me to carry something larger given the way I dress....and I don't intend to change the way I dress. My atire is business slacks and tucked in button down collar shirt. Pocket carry for me just looks like an oversized wallet in my front pocket - no big deal. When wearing shorts, you can't even notice I'm carrying.
Skans is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 03:58 PM   #13
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
I find it hard to debate this rationalization, as I pocket carry a J-Frame. 5, but no +1. I am not of a mind to carry everything needed to fight every possible engagement that can be imagined................ I could no more conceive of all the possible nasty scenarios, and odds against me, than carry all the gear and equipment to deal with same.
LOL, Not only that, but apparently you can't conceive of the possible need to reload your gun after you've fired but five shots---let alone "all the possible nasty scenarious and odds against me...".

So far, a spare mag (two for single stacks) has brought me nothing but piece of mind and a more compfy feeling. Hope that's all that's necessary.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 06:14 PM   #14
Hook686
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2005
Location: USA The Great State of California
Posts: 1,944
Quote:
LOL, Not only that, but apparently you can't conceive of the possible need to reload your gun after you've fired but five shots---let alone "all the possible nasty scenarious and odds against me...".
You are quite right Nnobby45. I am a disabled, old man. I will be lucky to get 5 shots off if I find myself in a life threatening situation. After that, ... I'm dead meat. So, I hope I do real well with those 5 shots I do have.

I hope as you age you continue to feel comfortable with your two single stacks.
__________________
Hook686

When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.
Hook686 is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 08:04 PM   #15
troy_mclure
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: gulf of mexico
Posts: 2,716
i carry a keltec p32 with 7+1.

the .32acp being what it is i plan on basically doing a mag dump into the perp.

i hate having tons of crap in my pockets, so i dont carry a spare mag either.

i actually started a thread a while ago on how people can carry all that crap(mags, light, keys, gun, bug, phone, etc...).
__________________
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
troy_mclure is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 08:29 PM   #16
Hoosier70
Member
 
Join Date: April 26, 2010
Posts: 26
+1 for Dwight55's post also remember that BG's generally work in pairs or groups
Hoosier70 is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 09:03 PM   #17
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
You are quite right Nnobby45. I am a disabled, old man. I will be lucky to get 5 shots off if I find myself in a life threatening situation. After that, ... I'm dead meat. So, I hope I do real well with those 5 shots I do have.

I hope as you age you continue to feel comfortable with your two single stacks.
__________________
Yes, I'd consider the possibility that your five shots might get the job done and that you might like to restore your pistol to useable status to celebrate your triumph.

And as I age, I intend to increase to three spare single stacks or one extra double..
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 09:09 PM   #18
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,248
Xyas,

Back when handguns only held five to eight rounds, I could see doing a tac-load after firing 2 or 3 rounds.

But with handguns holding 13, 14, and all the way up to 18, it becomes less important, at least for civilian/police self defense. Now if being overran by the Chinese army, well that's a whole nother case.

So don’t fret to much about having to reload when you have a load-on-Monday-shoot-all-week handgun.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 09:36 PM   #19
WC145
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2008
Location: Downeast Maine
Posts: 1,456
Not too much surprises me on the interweb anymore but I'm really surprised at what I'm seeing in this thread. Carrying a spare reload is like elementary school - you carry a gun, you carry a reload. Period. Anything can happen from a malfunction to emptying your gun, be ready. It isn't difficult or time consuming or even space consuming. The excuses here are jokes - it's not a gun fight, I'm an old man, I spend my ammo and run, blah blah blah. Well, IMO that's a bunch of BS!!!!!! You have no idea what you'll face, every altercation that involves a gun is a gun fight, and what the hell are you gonna do with that empty gun when the smoke clears?????

For God's sake, drop a spare mag or a speed strip or a moonclip or whatever in your friggin' pocket and at the very least be prepared to reload your piece after the initial fight is over so that you are prepared JUST IN CASE things don't go the way you think they will. It's cheap and easy insurance, don't cheat yourself out of it.

Here's my .38 Super AMT DAO Backup in a matching holster/mag pouch rig that cost me all of $55 shipped from a holster maker in Illinois. No trouble carrying the gun or the spare mag:



Cheap cell phone pouch holds two loaded moonclips for either my 646 or 586 L-Comp:


This is the rig that I carry my 1911 in when off duty, including matching mag pouch:


These are just a few examples that I have pics available for of some of my off duty carry stuff. On duty it's at least two spare reloads, a BUG, two knives, and a rifle in the truck. There is no excuse for not being prepared. Step up and put in the effort to equip yourselves, at least minimally, there's no excuse for not being ready. It's only your lives in the balance, no big deal. Right?
__________________
“Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.”
WC145 is offline  
Old August 20, 2010, 09:47 PM   #20
orionengnr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 4,999
I don't know about you guys, but...
For years I trained myself to count my rounds, while firing at the range. That worked out well, until I shot my first competition match.

Suddenly, I lost my ability to concurrently a) shoot quickly, b) hit what I was aiming at, c) focus on my front sight, d) count my shots.

I can do one or two of the above, but cannot do all at the same time, consistently.

Of course, I am a newb at this game, and that may change with more time...but I am also an old dog, so learning new tricks isn't easy.

More to the point, if I am ever doing it "for real", I would question my ability to do all of the above concurrently, while someone else is returning fire...

So I imagine I would find myself unexpectedly empty at some point (I doubt I would have the presence of mind to reload after x number of shots). But yeah, when empty, I will have a reload, providing I am still alive to use it

Again, I plan on continuing to participate in competitive shooting sports, and I hope that this will enhannce my skills. But I also have a suspicion that no matter how long you play the game, it may not be the same as the real thing...
orionengnr is offline  
Old August 21, 2010, 06:54 AM   #21
Charles Ellis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2010
Location: conroe,texas
Posts: 200
I carry a Glock23 in a IWB holster that I made myself.It has a Mag pouch built onto the leading edge in line with the slide.I keep a 15 round mag in it for a reload.There is never any question of having a spare mag.If I'm carrying in that holster,the spare is automatically there.
Charles Ellis is offline  
Old August 21, 2010, 10:46 AM   #22
EricReynolds
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 393
There are a lot of variables here, so let me break this down a bit, as my answer would depend on a lot. First, if I found it reasonable to believe that the attacker was alone and I put him down with 2 or 3 rounds, I would not reload. I would keep my weapon aimed at him while I called police or called for someone close by to call police. Second, if I had any reason at all to think there may be more than on assailant, I would take cover and top off before assessing what to do next. As I do this, I call police or ask someone close by to do so. Third, if I'm at work, (armed security) I don't have the option to retreat, but if I'm uncertain if I'm still in harm's way and do have the option to flee, I definitely will. On the other hand, if I feel that the subject might recover and put further lives at stake, a crowded area perhaps, I would stay drawn on the bad guy until police arrive. Also, it was said that these types typically work in pairs or groups. That's a pretty broad statement. A bank robbery maybe, but muggers are usually solo. It's the keystone of the debate right there. I carry a Ruger .40 10+1 and I'm a pretty good shot. I even have Crimson Trace laser grips equipped. I'm putting shots in center mass. I doubt I'll need 11 more rounds after the perp takes 3 .40 cals to the chest. One last bit, a couple people seemed a bit harsh on Skans here. I thought he was very reasonable and I have to say I agree with him 100%
EricReynolds is offline  
Old August 21, 2010, 10:55 AM   #23
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,813
In the scenario to OP posted I would not reload immediately. I still have 10 or 11 rounds and a full mag to go to if needed. I would switch magazines if I shot significantly more than that, or if I was unsure of what I had left in the weapon.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old August 21, 2010, 12:32 PM   #24
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,808
Quote:
For those that carry firearms with fewer rounds in it, when do you reload?

Any and all input is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
I watched a show this morning on Spike TV. One of the instructors Ken Hackathorn ( I may have mis-spelled his name ) made the statement in a gun fight shoot to slide lock and then re-load. They also did the El Presidente drill and spoke of Jeff Copper. The drills he was running with his 2 students we interesting.

A link to his site for training,
http://www.personaltactics.com/index...ken-hackathorn
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Range Safety Officer, IDPA Safety Officer, USPSA NROI Range Officer
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.

Last edited by Don P; August 21, 2010 at 12:41 PM.
Don P is offline  
Old August 21, 2010, 02:10 PM   #25
Magnum-PI
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2010
Posts: 37
Lets go into a few scenarios such as house burglary:

"You are awaken at 3am and hear a noise downstairs. You go to the top of the stairs to investigate and find an armed man at the foot of the stairs. He raises his weapon as if to fire at you and then you open fire. He falls down the steps and lays at the foot of the stairwell. You listen for a bit, but do not hear any other person in the house. You made 4 shots into the attacker and he is on the ground not moving now laying in a pool of blood that is growing. You look at the attacker on the ground for a few seconds and he is not moving."

So the attacker is probably incapacitated at this point, but would it be wise to change magazines at this point?
Magnum-PI is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14903 seconds with 7 queries