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Old March 1, 2000, 04:59 PM   #1
Dr.Rob
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I've carried and used a shotgun a lot in the feild (grouse, pheasant, skeet, and as a back up big game rifle when loaded with slugs)so let me ask this..

In IDPA rules you have to start with your gun unloaded: would you go with a faster handling shotgun (no magazine extension) or with an extended magazine? (I have both for my 12 ga. 870)

The difference is 4+1 vs 7+1 capacity, and the added weight.

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Old March 1, 2000, 05:17 PM   #2
Morgan
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Actually, Front Range IDPA does not mandate an unloaded gun for shotgun stages. Most shotgun stages start just like the pistol stages, i.e. fully loaded mag, and you may top off at the line. Max magazine capacity is ten shells.

Go to http://idpa.virtualave.net/monthly.html and click on the link for Rifle/Shotgun Rules for the straight scoop.

As for what gun to use, IDPA is all about training and practicing with your actual gear - whatever that is. So do you normally have the extention on or off?
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Old March 1, 2000, 06:42 PM   #3
MarkCO
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Since I designed the courses, I can't say too much, but both will be chamber empty, magazine full starts (10 or less), this time.

Consider the capability of the shotgun at close to medium range and handling in and out of cover, including prone positions.

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Old March 1, 2000, 07:26 PM   #4
Dr.Rob
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Hmmm must have misunderstood Dave's explanation.

I shoot it both ways Morgan, and i usually leave the rifle sights on it for most of the year. I bust skeet with a 26 in.vent rib OR 20 inch barrel with rifle sights. For deer I leave the extended tube off.. just to save the weight and my sling swivel mounts on the magazine cap.. but for defensive stuff.. I forgo the sling and increase the capacity.

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Old March 1, 2000, 07:28 PM   #5
Ned Roundtree
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Go with extended mag for extra shells. At my club when they set up a shotgun course, it always seems to have anywhere from 8-10 shots. This has more to do with time constraints, ease on SOs, and to speed up scoring than with anything else. For me, being short and stocky, I can handle a 18" barrel best. So my Rem 870, 6 + 1 comes in handy. Side saddle with four gives me 11 shots. Hence I've got the 8-10 shot course covered. But more than anything, go with what you feel comfortable with. I also find ghost ring rear sight with rifle front site is best for fast target acquisition.
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Old March 1, 2000, 07:44 PM   #6
MarkCO
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Dave is our resident limey and they did it that way over in England (see where that got them) . Seriously, the start condition is at the discretion of the stage designer. I don't leave my defense shotgun empty, but I do often leave the mag full and chamber empty, so that is how we will do it this time. Next time, may be an "english" start (empty).

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Old March 1, 2000, 07:48 PM   #7
MarkCO
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One more thing, with shotgun, hits are hits. Steel must fall and paper must be hit. But a -0 on paper is scored the same as a -3 and only one round per target required.

So for most people, the raw time will be their final score. About all you can get is failure to neutralize which is a miss too, so it counts as 15 points down.

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Old March 2, 2000, 12:02 PM   #8
Kathryn
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Should I use the 18 inch or 26 inch barrel?
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Old March 2, 2000, 04:08 PM   #9
Dr.Rob
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Kathryn I'd definitely go with the shorter barrel, in keeping with what Dave called "telegraphing" your movements around cover etc.

If you have never fired slugs be forewarned they kick a lot harder than birdshot. You may want to consider "reduced recoil" slugs if you can find them.

Dr.Rob

OK another question.. is there a shot size/dram equiv. or whatever for the steel targets? (I've got a CASE of doveloads we can use that I can't shoot at cherry creek if you guys want me to bring them)

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Old March 2, 2000, 04:56 PM   #10
Kathryn
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Oh, believe me I know what slugs can do. The folks at Cherry Creek thought I'd shot myself the first time!
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Old March 2, 2000, 05:30 PM   #11
MarkCO
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Dr. Rob, dove loads are fine.

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Old March 2, 2000, 09:01 PM   #12
motorep
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Mark, I read the rifle rules, I guess older guys with bad eyes are excluded from Front Range IDPA rifle courses. I haven't been able to use iron sights on a rifle for 10-11 years now. My 16" Bushmaster was built specifically to be a defensive-type rifle, it weighs in at 5 lbs, with a Leupold scope- the only way I can hit anything.
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Old March 2, 2000, 11:26 PM   #13
BILLG
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O.K Guys there is no such thing as an IDPA shotgun course or rifle course for that matter.If you are having a tactial shotgun match it should be called that.International Defensive Pistol Association should not be confused with other kinds of shooting,its great that you are doing other kinds of shooting but lets keep the Pistol in IDPA.Shoot safe,Shoot straight. BILLG AO2533
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Old March 3, 2000, 08:59 AM   #14
Tackleberry
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Hey Bill, I see where you're coming from. But I also see where the rest of them are as well. I understood the discussion as a "two or three gun match". I have shot a number of them here in Southern Ontario. The course of fire is designed to incorperate the use of a shotgun or "tactical rifle" (aka "the evil black guns")and then transition to the sidearm.

Yes the asso. name states pistol but in the "spirit of the matches" we shouldn't be ignoring the application and practice of such a vital tool.

Stay Safe, Train Hard, Come Out On Top
Tack

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Life is tough...it's alot tougher if you don't know how to shoot.
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Old March 3, 2000, 10:55 AM   #15
MarkCO
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motorep, the rifle stages have targets no further than 25 yards. Still up close and personal. (The average LEO Sniper shot with a rifle is at about 40 yards). I argued for scopes, until I took a CQB tactical rifle course, man did that change my mind. So 5-15 yards is about average. Not SOF courses mind you, defensive. I have an iron sighted shorty you can borrow when we do them.

Bill, you are correct, that is why we call them side matches. They do not factor into the placement for the pistol match. We saw the needs of our shooters. Some have CCWs and carry, but we have many more that have a shotgun or AR for home defense. Our Board all took, and paid for out of our own pockets, tactical rifle and shotgun courses taught by a top trainer (who was a much decorated sniper to boot). So we do still have IDPA. But we also offer a forum for our shooters to practice defensive long-gun tactics in a course of fire. Surely this can not be a bad thing. AND, do you really beleive that noe that Wilson has bought Scattergun and is building defensive ARs and Shotguns that IDPA won't encourage and support defensive long gun matches. We have already discussed the issue with Wilson BTW.

Mark, AO1445

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Old March 4, 2000, 12:43 AM   #16
BILLG
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Mark it not that I don't support defensive long guns in fact I just ordered a Wilson AR.It just that I think that they should be kept separate from IDPA and used in side matches or in matches designed for them.The purpose of IDPA is to use handguns that can be carried conceled and used in a self-defense situation.While the long gun can be used for self defense it can be hard to carry conceled.Also by using the guns people actually have for self defense has brought a lot of new shooters into IDPA and not all of them have a long gun.This is just my opinion but I think IDPA should stay with handguns and support defensive long gun side matches and matches set up for long guns but seperate from IDPA.REMEMBER TO VOTE AND SUPPORT GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA AND THE NRA.STAY SAFE STAY FREE BILLG
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Old March 4, 2000, 12:56 PM   #17
jfrancis
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At the Central Florida Rifle and Pistol Club, we have recently begun running 2- and 3-gun tactical matches that are entirely separate from the IDPA and IPSC matches. They are IDPA-like in concept and use of appropriate tactical techniques, but are stricter in their penalties (i.e. 60 secs for hitting a no-shoot and 1 sec down per dropped point). As MarkCO noted, there is a subset of pistol shooters that also trains with rifle and shotgun. These matches are a forum for practicing these skills.

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