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Old August 13, 2010, 11:52 PM   #1
wyohusker
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WOW!! Exciting evening tonight

First off I live in pretty small town of 50G. It does not see a lot of action but tonight was exciting.
My 13 year old son and I went for a walk about 9 p.m. at night. We went down town, its only four blocks away. I walked and he took his skate board. Anyhow we went to see a something down town that he thought was really cool. We had some kids following us but did not think much of it. Too make a long story short the kids 11-13 years old) stole my sons skate board when he sat it down for a minute to show me this item we went to see.

We chased the kids and I yelled that I was a cop and to stop, they did'nt. I am not a cop either. Anyhow after about a three block sprint we lost the kids.

Two other kids showed up and walked right up to us and asked me if I was going to jack up thier brother. Thats when I saw the knifes. I asked him if he had a knife and he said yeah, at the same time I was pulling my Kahr CW .45 from its holster. I yelled at him and told him to step back and put the knfie away. He did immediately. He actually took us to where the skate board was and gave it back to my son.

While walking back one of them asked, "Is'nt it illegal to pull a gun on a kid with a knife." I responded "I felt threatened and your lucky I did not shot both of you". What brass this kid had. Both of them were 14 years old.

I made a report and the real cops whet and got him.

Scared me to death. Everything fine now. No one hurt and we are home safe.

Edit: I do legally hold a CCW permit. Have not been wearing my gun much but don't think I'll be without much anymore except work.

Last edited by wyohusker; August 14, 2010 at 12:19 AM.
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Old August 13, 2010, 11:59 PM   #2
bdb benzino
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Glad you and your son were ok. Watch out because around here impersonating an officer of the law is a felony and it could come to bite you in the ..


Did he pull a knife on you or did he just have one?? I am just wondering why you asked him, hard to see maybe.
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Old August 14, 2010, 12:02 AM   #3
wyohusker
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That is why I called the police. I told him that I was a cop just to bring force to the situation. The police told me that I did nothing wrong by stating that because I was not trying to manipulate a situation of force myself on a situation but trying to control a situation.

With the adrinaline flowing I said and did some dumb stuff. Hind site I would have done many things different.
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Old August 14, 2010, 12:28 AM   #4
wyohusker
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Now that I am calming down many things go through your mind. Things I would have changed: Ishould have been more aware of our suroundings. I should have seen those kids following us as a threat, I niave at times. We should have not been where we were at the time. I should have stopped and called the police immediately and not let the kids go home.

I am sure there will be much more that comes to mind as I think about this.

Cool thing is that my 13 year old son thinks I am a hero.
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Old August 14, 2010, 12:51 AM   #5
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Glad you and your son were ok. Watch out because around here impersonating an officer of the law is a felony and it could come to bite you in the ..
I thought that was a Felony everywhere.
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Old August 14, 2010, 01:54 AM   #6
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This story has more holes in it than our southern border fence..
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Old August 14, 2010, 03:16 AM   #7
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Hmmm, glad everything worked out for you and no one got hurt..
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Old August 14, 2010, 05:48 AM   #8
drail
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Pulling a gun on someone you do not intend to kill is a very bad idea. It only works in movies and television shows.
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Old August 14, 2010, 06:12 AM   #9
MO. Shootin
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Glad it all worked out.

I'm sure you can't say you are a cop.
How would you make them stay? If they want to leave you have to let them don't you?
Some kids do have some nerve don't they. I think they just know they are protected because they are minors and will just get a slap on the hand.

I can't believe when you got to there house some parent did'nt flip out on you. That could have gone real bad.

Last edited by MO. Shootin; August 14, 2010 at 06:21 AM.
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Old August 14, 2010, 06:55 AM   #10
Daryl
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Pulling a gun on someone you do not intend to kill is a very bad idea. It only works in movies and television shows.
A kid can stick a knife in you about as quick as the next person. I wasn't there, and don't know exactly what happened, but if the kid had a knife in his hand, I might have pulled, too. When they're close, they can get a knife in you quicker than you can draw. There being two of them, and the OP having his young son there makes it even more possible for things to get bad quick.

I was riding with my BIL (Gene), who's an LEO. one night several years back. We'd just separated from another officer (Jeff), when a car drove by on the other side of the highway.

Jeff thought it was worth running the plate of anyone out at 2:30 AM, but when he flipped around to follow the car, it stopped and backed up. He had to back up really quick to keep from having his car plowed.

In his and Gene's mind, the driver was trying to plow the patrol car to disable it. As it turned out, it was two kids about 13 years old who'd stolen mama's car to go joy riding. They backed up in the highway because they'd missed their turn-off, and apparently didn't have the mirrors adjusted to see the car behind them.

But they found out what it feels like to be laid out in the highway with a couple of 1911's aimed at them. It was afterwards, after being separated and questioned that their real intent was discovered, and their parents were called. They were cited and released into their parents custody, but they might have prefered going to jail. Their parents weren't real happy with them.

Now, actually shooting a 13 y/o would, without doubt, cause someone a lot of problems in court. You're supposed to be afraid for your life, and although one might very well have been afraid for their life, the young age of the "perps" would play havoc on the sympathies of a jury.

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Old August 14, 2010, 07:57 AM   #11
drail
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I understand that a person with a knife can kill you quickly and easily if they are close enough. Such a person is most definitely a threat. My point was simply that you don't pull a gun unless you've already decided to fire it as soon as it's cleared the holster. Attempting to intimidate a perp by pointing a gun at them is no guarantee that they will submit. They just might, but you better not count on it. And yes, law enforcement does this frequently as a matter of course and it doesn't always work for them either. Sometimes threatening a person with a weapon who hasn't made up his mind yet will push them over the line.
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Old August 14, 2010, 08:19 AM   #12
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In the first place Drail, not removing your handgun from it's holster unless "you intend to kill" is a foolish mindset to preach let alone train yourself to be in. Secondly, the OP does not state anywhere what his intentions were when he drew, so to infer he was trying to do one thing or another is just an assumption. He drew, from what I read, because 2 individuals were within striking distance with visible knives and he felt threatened. Issuing a warning to stop threatening behavior is not exactly a novel idea, and in this case prevented a kid or 2 from getting shot. Am I to assume you would have just let them approach you with the knives, or am I to assume you would have killed them grave yard dead no matter what because to draw without killing would go against the grain of what you determined the outcome is supposed to be prior to the actual incident?

The OP has already stated he would have done some things differently, and I agree. We learn. I am glad it turned out well. These things are pretty fluid, and are simply not static training exercises with black and white decisions to be made. Made on the fly and under stress I might add. Having the presence of mind NOT to shoot absolutely has as much weight as the presence of mind TO shoot.
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Old August 14, 2010, 08:41 AM   #13
wyohusker
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Thank you Jhenry

The kids were about 4 feet away when I asked if they had a knife. I took one large step back and pushed my son back while I pulled my weapon. I also could see that they were very young and they ran to fast and straight to be up on something. Again this is a sleepy little town, nothing like this happens here much. In the real world if I have to pull my gun my brain better be thinking, and if I have to pull the trigger to stop the threat I will but if everyone can go home thats even better.

Posted by Jhenry: The OP has already stated he would have done some things differently, and I agree. We learn. I am glad it turned out well. These things are pretty fluid, and are simply not static training exercises with black and white decisions to be made. Made on the fly and under stress I might add. Having the presence of mind NOT to shoot absolutely has as much weight as the presence of mind TO shoot. ( could have not said it any better)
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Old August 14, 2010, 10:01 AM   #14
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I can't say that I really dissagree with much of what the OP did. Some things might be questionable and it might be wise to refrain from posting this kind of thing on a message board after such an incident took place.

I know folks like to talk about real scenarios that they've experienced. But, sometimes silence is golden.
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Old August 14, 2010, 12:05 PM   #15
shafter
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That must have been quite a sight, you and your son chasing kids down the street. What would you have done if you caught up with them? Shoot the skateboard out of his hands?
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Old August 14, 2010, 01:10 PM   #16
HighValleyRanch
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Asked it they had a knife?

You stated in your post that you had to ask if they had a knife.
You mean to say that you didn't see the knife or know for sure, then you were not justified in pulling your weapon in fear of your life.

On top of that, you stated in your original post that you chased the kids.
And they were not the ones that stole the board, their brother did. So even if they had a knife, they could have pleaded that THEY WERE IN FEAR OF THEIR OWN LIVES BY YOUR CHASING THEM. No matter what the crime, you cannot chase someone down and then claim, fear of your own life, IMHO.

You cannot shoot someone over a skateboard, so you would have been in deep shxx if you had to really pull the trigger.
What, stealing the skateboard is less than a felony, and shooting someone without just cause is a felony?

I think that any good lawyer would have fried you, had you bodily harmed the kids with your weapon. In fact there might even be case for "intending to do bodily harm" by drawing the weapon and threatening them, if they did not have the knife drawn in a threatening manner, as you had to ask them if they even had a knife.

I'm not a lawyer, but I could be on a jury, and that would have been my conclusion just from the evidence you presented.
We were told that even a justified shooting might cost you 50,000 in civil court charges, guilty or not, so the question is:
Is any skateboard worth 50,000?

I am happy that your son thinks of you as a hero, but the outcome could have been very BAD. I hope you take time to reflect on all this, and perhaps keep a cooler head next time.

How big were the kids?
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Old August 14, 2010, 01:49 PM   #17
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drail, I am one my department's Firearms Instructors and we do not train our officers to draw with the intent to "kill". We train them to draw with the intent of stopping the crime from continueing. Even in a legitimate self defense situation if you let it be known that you drew with the intent to kill you may go from victim to suspect in the blink of an eye. You could be looking at manslaughter charges at the very least. There is the story that several decades ago an FBI Agent that was charged with murder because he stated under oath that they were trained to shoot to kill at the academy. I don't recal the outcome but is wasn't cheap either way. It may be fine for soldiers during wartime under orders but not for normal citizens. I'm gald everything turned out fine. It sounds as though the local police are aware of these deliquents and their actions.
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Old August 14, 2010, 01:51 PM   #18
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I'm sorry hukster, but a town of 50G does NOT qualify as a "pretty small town", at least in my book.
When you have that many people in one location, these things are going to happen. And that is why I refuse to live in a city. Too many folks know they can get away with whatever they want...esp the kids. The smaller the town, the less likely they will run around unnoticed by adults that know them. As a kid, I remember my parents knowing what my brothers and I had been up to all day before we even came inside for supper. That doesn't happen in the cities. I think you got lucky with the safe outcome you recieved. Enjoy the second chance.

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Old August 14, 2010, 04:45 PM   #19
orionengnr
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with all respect due a senior member

Quote:
Pulling a gun on someone you do not intend to kill is a very bad idea.
Wrong. I never "intend to kill" anyone. I intend to "stop the threat."
Quote:
My point was simply that you don't pull a gun unless you've already decided to fire it as soon as it's cleared the holster.
Wrong again.
There have been dozens, probably hundreds of discussions on this topic. Commiting to shoot because you drew is a terrible stategy. Things change in the blink of an eye--the perp may throw up his hands, may run like heck, may throw himself on the ground and cry for his mommy. Are you going to shoot him if he does any of the above? I'm not.

More to the point, if you draw you should be ready and willing to fire, if the circumstances demand it...but likewise, that is a decision you should have made long before you decided to carry a firearm.

Edited to add: What I have posted is in accordance with my state's law. Your state's laws may vary, but I would be very surprised if the attitude/actions you seem to espouse would be defensible as stated...

OP, you did fine. Everyone got to go home (albeit perhaps a few had a detour through the police station ) and everyone learned a few lessons.

Last edited by orionengnr; August 14, 2010 at 04:56 PM.
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Old August 14, 2010, 04:47 PM   #20
drail
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jhenry, you assume a lot here. I will not presume to describe what I would have done because I was not there. I believe a verbal warning with possibly a hand placed on your gun (while keeping it holstered) would not be unreasonable. I believe though that once we go past this stage you are "brandishing" which is illegal in every state I have lived in. I believe that if a person is advancing towards me with a weapon in his hand and does not stop when I warn him what is about to happen then I have the legal definition of a case of justified use of lethal force against a lethal threat according to the laws of the State I live in. Unfortunately, every State has differing definitions on this. It does seem to me that a great many people believe in taking actions based on what they see on TV and in film. Drawing a gun for intimidation purposes may or may not achieve the desired effect. Once you pull the gun then what exactly do you intend to do? If you draw with the intent of stopping the crime and it fails to stop it, what do you do then? I never said that I was commited to shoot BECAUSE I drew my weapon. That decision is made before I draw. And I wholeheartedly agree that a person needs to be thoroughly committed to the idea that they will shoot or they should not carry a weapon. But what the OP described is brandishing.

Last edited by drail; August 14, 2010 at 04:53 PM.
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Old August 14, 2010, 05:12 PM   #21
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I believe a verbal warning with possibly a hand placed on your gun
Sounds good on a message board, but in reality you had better word that "warning" carefully, lest it subsequently be interpreted in court as an incitement or threat.
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Old August 14, 2010, 05:24 PM   #22
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impersonating a po is a no-no.
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Old August 14, 2010, 05:37 PM   #23
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Sorry - this story and some responses are not the standard we set.

1. Yelling you are police is suspect.

2. We've done the bit that if you draw, you must shoot into the ground. No one reasonable buys that. That's a different question from whether a knife pulled on you would support shooting the person.

Thus, not much to be gained here.

Closed.
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