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View Poll Results: Guy with a stick... What would you do?
Retreat to house, ignore him, or give directions to the park at a distance 68 76.40%
Approach in the most non-threatening way possible, pistol fully concealed, speaking to him, etc. 16 17.98%
Command him to drop the stick and be ready to draw your pistol 3 3.37%
Draw pistol, command him to drop stick, etc 2 2.25%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 12, 2010, 11:53 PM   #51
blazeops
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From the scenario given and without adding more to it, I choose option 1.

From the details, he is not threatening and appears to be gesturing with the stick so I will take it at face value. I would ignore him (opposite race wouldn't bother me...my wife is a different race) and head to the house. Of course, I would watch him and make sure I am positioned to react if he closed the distance. Once in the house, I would call 911, describe the man's pedigree and mention that he is incoherent ... possibly drunk, ill or mentally ill. I would mention that he is holding a stick but would emphasize that he is non-violent. I would request an ambulance and the police.

In this scenario there is no need to get cops hurt rushing to a scene thinking that there is a violent man weiding a stick. So I would definitely emphasize non-violent. I live in a big city...once you hear man with a weapon...other units will back you up. So you have several units trying to get to the scene quickly which can cause accidents (tunnel vision while driving, etc...).
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Old August 13, 2010, 12:11 AM   #52
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I would say go in the house and call 911 if it bothers you. Once the cops come and remove him, you can go back to doing whatever it was in the yard.
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Old August 13, 2010, 12:43 AM   #53
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The fact you even contimplated pulling your pistol bothers me. Not knowing how someone is going to act and defending your self from a deadly attack with a pistol are 2 different scenarios.
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Old August 13, 2010, 12:59 AM   #54
Sport45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans
Y'all do what you want. I'll stand my ground. IMHO, this country is made up of way too many people afraid to stand their ground in the face of a mild threat, instead relying on some hired-hand government employee to "protect" them.
I've been a Texan all my life and I hear what you're saying. But keep in mind that when the Texicans stood their ground against General Santa Anna's army, they did it from behind the walls of the Alamo (and missions in San Jacinto, Goliad, etc.). They lasted a lot longer that way. Think about it, if there's a chance you'll be taking someone on wouldn't you prefer to have cover? What if the stick isn't his only weapon?

Again, I wouldn't talk to the guy. My action would be to point in the direction of the park and keep about my business. If the situation changed, so would my reaction.
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Old August 13, 2010, 01:30 AM   #55
animal
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Some things are getting a little distorted …

He was shaking the stick at the cars while griping about them coming too close, etc… NOT striking at them or trying to hit them.

Details are scattered in the post, some can be combined with others to yield pertinent information or explain why some details were omitted (why I wasn’t able to notice some things and recognizing a limitation of knowledge that may be important). For instance, "Of another race" and "never seen him before" can be combined to explain why no information about his pallor was included. "Paleness"(according to conversations I’ve had with black friends) is at least sometimes hard for black people to detect in whites that they don’t know. The reverse is also true of whites noticing "redness" or "paleness" in blacks that they don’t know(at least it’s true in my case). Most people are simply more familiar with the wide variations of natural skin tone and sub-variations (which give clues to the person’s health) within their own race because of greater experience with those of their own race. (sigh … If we don’t grow up about this stuff, we’ll lose the ground that’s been gained here.)

The other way race was relevant was from his perspective and didn’t become apparent until after the initial exchange of words. IMO, the most valid reason for race to be a consideration in situations like this is that if the person appears mentally impaired in some way, interacting with a person "of another race" is more likely to affect his comfort level. Any way you are different from them can become a liability .. the way you are dressed, how you speak (or how they expect you to speak), the way you carry yourself, etc… This very much includes the most obvious observable differences such as race. This turned out to be a factor later, though I was a little surprised at the specifics.

A few details can be inferred by looking outside the body of the post and narrow probabilities to explain what might have been going on. For instance, I stated the time and that this actually happened to me. Thus, not only the time and date may be relevant, but other stuff such as my location listed in the sidebar. I threw this curve ball in for fun to see if people would be "situationally aware", since so much is made of awareness on this board… and to represent things which are so obvious they are often unnoticed … one of which I failed to fully consider in real life.

All that said, the post isn’t a logic puzzle as it has no set solution, only a narrowing of probabilities. Just a slice of life that happened the other day ... a judgment call, imo.
If you want to think of me or the post as racist because I admit ignorance to various nuances of black people’s skin color, fine. That’s also your judgment call.
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Old August 13, 2010, 02:28 AM   #56
kadima
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Had I shot all the drunk or strangely behaving people I've met in my life, the undertaker's sons would all be named after either my first or middle name
and there wouldn't be any wood left on my revolver's grips, due to all the killmarks.

Anyone of you who had been in a big European city around a railway station knows what I mean.

K.

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Old August 13, 2010, 04:22 AM   #57
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Quote:
The choices :

1. retreat to house, ignore him, or give directions to the park at a distance

2. Approach in the most non-threatening way possible, weapon fully concealed, hands where he can see them, speaking to him, etc.

3. Command him to drop the stick and be ready to draw your pistol.

4. Draw pistol, command him to drop stick, etc
You kid's! You'll learn.

There is more than one, two, three, or four options!

How old are you?
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Old August 13, 2010, 08:33 AM   #58
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5) Someone clubbing a vehicle is different then someone clubbing a person. If someone is banging on a car then no one is getting hurt just yet. No reason to draw at that point.
Are you kidding me! Someone walks off the street, apparently drunk or deranged walks up your driveway and starts clubbing your car while you are standing there. Sorry folks, at that point, my gun comes out - I will draw on this person.
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Old August 13, 2010, 08:36 AM   #59
blazeops
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animal
If you want to think of me or the post as racist because I admit ignorance to various nuances of black people’s skin color, fine. That’s also your judgment call.
Animal, were you refering to a specific post? I don't see anyone saying that this post or you were racist and personally don't see it that way.
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Old August 13, 2010, 08:47 AM   #60
Sport45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans
Are you kidding me! Someone walks off the street, apparently drunk or deranged walks up your driveway and starts clubbing your car while you are standing there. Sorry folks, at that point, my gun comes out - I will draw on this person.
If I was a soothsayer I would predict that one day you will find yourself on the wrong side of the law. No matter how right you believe you are...
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Old August 13, 2010, 09:00 AM   #61
Skans
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If I was a soothsayer I would predict that one day you will find yourself on the wrong side of the law. No matter how right you believe you are...
I've been around for a good number of years, have owned and carried guns for a good number of years and have never once found myself on the wrong side of the law, other than the occasional speeding ticket. I have never done any illegal drugs, never stolen anything in my life, don't start fights, and can't recally the last time I've ever even injured another person. I'd put money on your prediction being dead wrong.
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Old August 13, 2010, 09:03 AM   #62
Inhimwelive
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speculation

So when do we get to hear what happened? The rest of this serves no useful purpose and is just idle speculation and other nonsense.
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Old August 13, 2010, 09:52 AM   #63
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Quote:
Posted by Skans: Are you kidding me [in saying "someone clubbing a vehicle is different than someone clubbing a person. If someone is banging on a car then no one is getting hurt just yet. No reason to draw at that point"]! Someone walks off the street, apparently drunk or deranged walks up your driveway and starts clubbing your car while you are standing there. Sorry folks, at that point, my gun comes out - I will draw on this person.
Who is kidding whom? Now, assuming for the moment that you are serious, and that you would draw under such a circumstance, what would be the basis for your legal defense?
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Old August 13, 2010, 10:12 AM   #64
Skans
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Who is kidding whom? Now, assuming for the moment that you are serious, and that you would draw under such a circumstance, what would be the basis for your legal defense?
Self defense.

I'm in my yard near my car that's parked in my driveway. A drunk, stoned, deranged guy is staggering down the street with a club talking a bunch of jibberish at me as he walks up my driveway and starts violently beating on my car. It's reasonable to believe that I'm next. Like I said - self defense. In my state, I'm not required to reatreat from a violent threat on my own homestead.

This is nuts. I'd bet that every one of you would do the same thing I would. Stop trying to make me out to be the bad guy here just because I refuse to retreate inside of my house and rely on the police to take care of things.

Last edited by Skans; August 13, 2010 at 10:24 AM.
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Old August 13, 2010, 10:32 AM   #65
Edward429451
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Skans is right. Under that circumstance, the individual has already demonstrated a propensity to violence on the car so it is prudently reasonable to assume that he would continue such violence if allowed to.
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Old August 13, 2010, 10:32 AM   #66
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So when do we get to hear what happened? The rest of this serves no useful purpose and is just idle speculation and other nonsense.
Big +1 inquiring minds want to know.
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Old August 13, 2010, 11:05 AM   #67
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I would approach him. I know hand-to-hand combat, so, a big dude with a stick and possibly drunk would be an easy disarm if he ever threatened me.
So, if he did take a swing at me or something-when I am trying to help-I would whip out the arm-bar, get his face in the gravel, then have a bystander call the police.
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Old August 13, 2010, 11:05 AM   #68
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Quote:
Posted by Skans: Self defense. ... I'm in my yard near my car that's parked in my driveway. A drunk, stoned, deranged guy ... with a club talking a bunch of jibberish at me ... starts violently beating on my car. It's reasonable to believe that I'm next. Like I said -- self defense.
So, you think you would be able to present enough evidence on the subject of the person's ability and opportunity to seriously harm you, and of a reasonable belief that you were in fact in immediate jeopardy, to even get a favorable jury instruction? The stakes would be awfully high. Believing that you are "next" is most unlikely to cut it. Others will have to decide, on the basis of all of the testimony and evidence, and if it comes to that, on the basis of jury instructions, whether it was reasonable for you to believe, knowing what you knew at the time, that you were in imminent danger of death or serous bodily harm, and that your actions were in fact necessary to defend yourself.

Might I suggest that you bookmark and read these:

http://www.useofforce.us/

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...2_StudyDay.htm

I would also consult a qualified local attorney before you need one and have to exhaust your resources and possibly lose your right to own a gun permanently.

Don't put too much importance on the fact that the guy is in your driveway. Although "a man's home is his castle", this is not in your occupied home. An assault is an assault, whether it is in your yard or on the village commons.

Quote:
This is nuts. I'd bet that every one of you would do the same thing I would.
Actually, I do believe that I probably would have--before I took my CCW training.

Quote:
Stop trying to make me out to be the bad guy here just because I refuse to retreat inside of my house and rely on the police to take care of things.
No one here can make you out to be the bad guy. That would be up to the charging authority and possibly a criminal trial jury and/or civil trial jury.

The fact that you have no obligation to retreat in your jurisdiction would make your defense of justification somewhat easier, should you be forced into a real self-defense situation. The other side of the coin is that doing so when it is not legally required can not only help you avoid getting into a bad situation, it can help in your defense.

There are several advantages to letting the police handle the situation. They are permitted to present a weapon in the performance of their sworn duty; the officers are indemnified by the state, county, or municipality which they serve; they are trained in techniques and in what constitutes appropriate vs. excessive force; they operate under procedures that have been reviewed and tested both for tactical effectiveness and legal compliance; and if things should end up under investigation, a lot less of your time and money will be required.
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Old August 13, 2010, 12:00 PM   #69
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IMHO, this country is made up of way too many people afraid to stand their ground in the face of a mild threat, instead relying on some hired-hand government employee to "protect" them.
I can walk away from a 'mild threat'. Your fantasy scenario of a drunk beating on vehicles with a stick is NOT what the OP wrote. Leave out the 'beating on vehicles, and rethink the situation. What grave danger are you in? What harm is threatening you?
You would use deadly force against a person that poses no grave bodily harm, injury or death to you.
Castle law or not, our use of deadly force is supposed to the be last possible option. In some cases there is no other option. But in the scenario of the OP, walking away is definitely an option. If walking away is equatable in your head with 'cowardice' and you simply MUST stand your ground and fight for your honor, by all means draw down and do what you feel you must. I'll send you a christmas card each year to the correctional facility you will be residing at.
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Old August 13, 2010, 12:05 PM   #70
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"Are you kidding me! Someone walks off the street, apparently drunk or deranged walks up your driveway and starts clubbing your car while you are standing there. Sorry folks, at that point, my gun comes out - I will draw on this person."

You have to justify what you do ultimately to either a judge or jury up against an experienced prosecutor. I would rather have my insurance company take care of the damage to the car or even pay for the damages out of pocket then wonder what a judge or jury might think of me.

If you draw on someone, then you have to articulate as to why it was neccessary to protect yourself. Police officers have spokesman, attornies, the union, the law, etc on their side when they draw their pistols. However, all you will get is a public defender or be out a lot of money hiring your own attorney. There will be no police chief or union backing up your actions.

Honestly, I would not draw my weapon even if there was a fist fight in my driveway. Although its a violent incident, its not really one where deadly force needs to be used.

The locality you are in might automatically put all people who draw their weapons or fire them off in front of a grand jury. It will be up to a grand jury to decide if the case proceeds then there will be a trial if they say yes. You do not want to be put in that position.
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Old August 13, 2010, 02:48 PM   #71
Skans
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Your fantasy scenario of a drunk beating on vehicles with a stick is NOT what the OP wrote.
I suggest that you go back and re-read the thread - I wasn't the one who brought up "beating on vehicles". I was responding to someone else's post that added this.

Quote:
Leave out the 'beating on vehicles, and rethink the situation. What grave danger are you in? What harm is threatening you?
You would use deadly force against a person that poses no grave bodily harm, injury or death to you.
Again, go back and re-read the thread. All I said that I would do (before someone interjected "beating on a vehicle") was stand in the yard and watch the guy. That's it, just watch the guy. Really, that's all I said I'd do - when others suggested that I retreat inside my house and call the police.

Quote:
Castle law or not, our use of deadly force is supposed to the be last possible option. In some cases there is no other option. But in the scenario of the OP, walking away is definitely an option. If walking away is equatable in your head with 'cowardice' and you simply MUST stand your ground and fight for your honor, by all means draw down and do what you feel you must. I'll send you a christmas card each year to the correctional facility you will be residing at.
Once again, you are WAY off base with this comment. RE-READ.
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Old August 13, 2010, 03:17 PM   #72
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Walking away Isn't cowardice. If you are trying to find people to fight in the ring of honor, I suggest you start to CC two blackpowder pistols. This way, you can hand one to your opponent and duel to the death.

Using a gun as a means of control is reckless. Only draw when you have to immediately stop a threat.
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Old August 13, 2010, 03:33 PM   #73
OldMarksman
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Quote:
Posted by Skans: All I said that I would do (before someone interjected "beating on a vehicle") was stand in the yard and watch the guy. That's it, just watch the guy. Really, that's all I said I'd do - when others suggested that I retreat inside my house and call the police.
You said you would stare at him and later that you that you would observe him. OK, "watch".

Others have said it would be wiser to go in the house, and still others, that one should call the police, because he probably poses a danger to himself.

You said on one occasion that you would not draw unless and until he directly threatened you with harm, and on another, that you would draw if he started beating on your car.

Let's set the latter aside and discuss the first. If it were immediately necessary for you to draw to defend yourself against an imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, you should do so--you need to. You had better also hope that you can present sufficient evidence supportive of your defense of justification, and that no one presents much in the way of contradictory testimony, or your justification will remain in your own mind, where it will not do you any good at all.

Consider this angle--a staggering man not in complete control of his own facilities utters unintelligible comments and walks toward you. He asks for directions. You have "stood your ground" and he's close. You draw; it doesn't register on him; you fire.

One, two, or maybe more more witnesses say that, based on what they were able to observe, an apparently harmless man who had been asking people for directions came close to you, you drew a gun, and you shot him down; he says the same thing; medical witnesses for the state say that the impaired man likely posed no threat to a man your size.

You claim that you fired in self defense, perhaps trying to justify it by mentioning the irrelevant fact that he stepped onto your property. You have no corroborating evidence or supporting witnesses.

More likely than not, your goose is cooked. Maybe not, but likely. Either way, you will probably finance the education of the children of an attorney or two and maybe an expert witness....

...and that's before civil damages, should it come to that.

What a way to make a statement on moral principles.

Do you see why many of us would prefer to go inside until he has gone on down the street?

You need to regard your gun as a last resort, and that means staying away from trouble whenever you can.

I carry a gun, but unless I'm in the house, you'll never see me "standing my ground" for the sake of principle--I will always try to evade or avoid. You'll never find me going anywhere that might be questionable if I can avoid it, and you'll never see me draw the gun unless everthing else under the sun and moon has failed.
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Old August 13, 2010, 03:55 PM   #74
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Okay, let me go back and work over your input throughout the thread, Skans:
Quote:
1. Nutty people don't like when someone stares at them but refuses to talk to them - it creeps them out and they usually move on. If he came on my property, the only words that would come out of my mouth would be "get off my property NOW!"
I don't know what kind of nutty or intoxicated or under the influence persons you have where you live, but staring down someone who is nutty, drunk, under the influence, tends to escalate situations, in my humble experience. Usually begins with the individual screaming "What the &%^$ you looking at?!" and proceeds downhill from there. Maybe your 'stoic game face' is far more intimidating than mine, I dunno.
Quote:
That's the one thing I'm not going to do. It's my land and I have no intention of ever retreating on my own land. Maybe not the smartest thing, but a guy has to decide when he's going to stand his ground.
You are basically saying here, that no matter what, when you are on your own property, you are going to what? Not allow anyone to talk back to you? Prevent people from trespassing? Confront every situation and escalate it to the point where you will have to use deadly force?
Quote:
The bottom line is that, if I am in my own front yard (I understand that this may not have been the OP's scenario - not sure) and some drunk, nutty scary guy comes stagering down the street, whether I'm armed or not, I'm not going to tuck tail and run inside my house. Even if it's a relative's front yard, I'm not going to tuck tail and run inside the house. It's just not in my nature to act like that.
You are saying here that anyone who does choose to walk away from a situation like this is a coward. Its plainly obvious that you look down on people who choose when to fight, when you want to fight every battle. Thats very manly and masculine of you. I bow before your superior manhood and compliment you on your very large procreating instruments.
Quote:
Someone staggering down the road who clearly looks like a drunken bum in my neighborhood is not someone I choose to help. He's someone I want out of my neighborhood. He's not someone for whom I'm going to leave my front yard and run inside of the house over. Nor am I going to call the police if he's just walking down the street. I'm going to stand my ground, observe the guy, but not help him or antagonize him in any manner whatsoever - other than stare at him. I really don't understand those of you who have some kind of problem with this. To each his own, I guess.
I guess I am different than you. I can call the non-emergency police number and report the persons behavior. Where I live, police are usually good about responding and determining if the drunk needs to go to the sleepoff center, or if they just let him go about his business. It takes me all of two minutes to make a phone call, well actually, more like 3 minutes, cause it takes me a minute to stop hysterically freaking out and running around in circles trying to get back into the safety of my home, and then I have to change my underoos cause that drunken person was waaay too overstimulating to me and well, gawshdarnit I done soiled my pants!
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Old August 13, 2010, 03:56 PM   #75
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Quote:
Consider this angle--a staggering man not in complete control of his own facilities utters unintelligible comments and walks toward you. He asks for directions. You have "stood your ground" and he's close. You draw; it doesn't register on him; you fire.
This is absurd. I would never draw on an man asking for directions, even a staggering drunk. I would simply go about my business and watch him...from my yard....not retreating into my house. That's all. No gun. No threat. No brandishing. But, I would not permit myself to be drawn into conversation with him at all either. No need to. Nothing good comes from talking to a person who is drunk or stoned, wandering the streets in front of your home. If the drunk enters onto my property and starts acting violent toward me, then I may decide to pull my gun out. Anything short of that, I'm not pulling a gun out or shooting anyone.

I believe that my position has been quite consistant and clear on this through out the thread. In fact, on one or two occasions I have seen someone who didn't look "quite right" wondering the street in front of my house while i was out doing yard work, and I did exactly what I said I would do here - stood where I was and watched that person, until that person moved on.

Spacemanspiff - you're free to handle things your way. I'll handle them my way. You have made it clear that my way is not your way. Likewise, your way is not my way. That's why this forum exists - to discuss different ways of handling the same situation.

Last edited by Skans; August 13, 2010 at 04:05 PM.
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