The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

View Poll Results: Guy with a stick... What would you do?
Retreat to house, ignore him, or give directions to the park at a distance 68 76.40%
Approach in the most non-threatening way possible, pistol fully concealed, speaking to him, etc. 16 17.98%
Command him to drop the stick and be ready to draw your pistol 3 3.37%
Draw pistol, command him to drop stick, etc 2 2.25%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old August 12, 2010, 12:58 PM   #26
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward429451
I also would not see a reason to call the police. Why? He's walking.
From the OP:
Quote:
He’s staggering a bit, dragging his feet some, talking and mumbling to himself...
As I said above -- yes, most likely he's drunk. So what are the odds that he's going to stagger into the street and be hit by a car? Why take the chance, when you can maybe save a life by making a phone call?

I had exactly such an incident outside my house not that long ago: the man was clearly drunk, yelling incoherently, and staggering in and out of the street at the bus stop. My first reaction was "Live and let live..." Why complicate his life by calling the police on him?

But I realized, as I watched him, that he was putting himself in some danger -- it's a busy street.

Just as I picked up the phone to call them, the police arrived, talked with him for a bit, and finally put him in the back of the squad car and drove away. I felt some regret that I hadn't acted sooner, and promised myself that another time, I wouldn't wait.

If he'd been hit by a car whilst I dithered, I would have felt pretty miserable about it.

Some people here are very quick to assert that they'd risk their own lives to save someone who was in jeopardy. So what does it say that pride, ego, or principle would keep them from taking the tiny step of making a phone call that might do the same thing? Just because he looks down-and-out and is acting funny, he's not worthy of some minimal help?

I really don't get it.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson never said that.
http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...ous-quotations
Vanya is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 02:34 PM   #27
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,839
Quote:
Posted by Skans: The bottom line is that, if I am in my own front yard (I understand that this may not have been the OP's scenario - not sure) and some drunk, nutty scary guy comes stagering down the street, whether I'm armed or not, I'm not going to tuck tail and run inside my house. Even if it's a relative's front yard, I'm not going to tuck tail and run inside the house. It's just not in my nature to act like that.
Ok. So the question becomes, can you adjust your thought processes so that you employ a fact based and risk based decision process rather than acting upon what is "in your nature"?

Of course, in the scenario as described, it may be perfectly reasonable to just ignore the guy--initially, and up to a point. But should push come to shove, and should some indications of an immediate threat become evident,"standing your ground" is likely to prove to be a losing gambit, and to "tuck tail" may be the smarter one by far.

You said yourself that staying outside may not be the smartest thing to do. I agree.

Think about why:
  • It contributes nothing toward the achievement of any important objective;
  • It contributes to the possibility of an interaction from which you cannot benefit, that may have considerable down-side risk; and
  • The alternative--going inside--is likely to negate all risks at absolutely no cost to you.

One encounters people on the board who are very averse to the idea of seeing someone seemingly attacking someone else or fiddling with their trailer outside in the dark without introducing themselves into a risky situation, but some of those who have decided to do "what is in their nature" have really regretted it.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 02:44 PM   #28
efield
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2009
Location: Peoples Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 122
I think I'd try not to engage him at all if possible and retreat toward the house. If he aggressively engaged me or came on the property in a threatening manner, that would change this whole scenario.
__________________
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition.
-Rudyard Kipling-
efield is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 02:47 PM   #29
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,417
Quote:
Of course, in the scenario as described, it may be perfectly reasonable to just ignore the guy--initially, and up to a point. But should push come to shove, and should some indications of an immediate threat become evident,"standing your ground" is likely to prove to be a losing gambit, and to "tuck tail" may be the smarter one by far.
All I can really tell you is that I distinguish between being out in public and being on my own land. If I'm in public and a threat comes my way, I may decide to simply walk the other way.

But, on my own land (or even on a relative's land), I believe that I have a moral duty to myself to stand my ground. It's not really a losing gambit, because I'd either be armed, or it would be fairly easy to arm myself quickly better than some guy carrying a stick. Even if I'm not armed, I'm pretty adept at defending myself against a drunk bum armed with a stick. It goes against every grain in my body to cower like a trapped animal on my own land and "wait for help".

Y'all do what you want. I'll stand my ground. IMHO, this country is made up of way too many people afraid to stand their ground in the face of a mild threat, instead relying on some hired-hand government employee to "protect" them.
Skans is online now  
Old August 12, 2010, 02:50 PM   #30
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2002
Location: alaska
Posts: 3,106
Well if the drunk was of my own race I wouldn't have batted an eye. But your scenario with a guy of a 'different race', man you should have drawn down and executed a citizens arrest for him being drunk in public and disorderly conduct and brandishing a deadly weapon and trespassing.

I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded after dealing regularly with intoxicated persons.
__________________
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard
spacemanspiff is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 03:07 PM   #31
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans
Even if I'm not armed, I'm pretty adept at defending myself against a drunk bum armed with a stick. It goes against every grain in my body to cower like a trapped animal on my own land and "wait for help".

Y'all do what you want. I'll stand my ground. IMHO, this country is made up of way too many people afraid to stand their ground in the face of a mild threat, instead relying on some hired-hand government employee to "protect" them.
Well... my point is precisely that the drunk (or ill) bum isn't much of a threat to you; he's likely far more of a threat to himself. The reason for calling the police in this situation isn't that you might need help, it's that he does.

[IRONY]But... I guess it was his choice to get drunk, or not take care of his diabetes, or whatever, so if he staggers into the street and gets hit by a car it will be his own fault...[/IRONY]

And in the meantime, you can feel like a rugged individualist. Have at it.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson never said that.
http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...ous-quotations
Vanya is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 03:15 PM   #32
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 5,523
How about approaching the guy and seeing if he needs any help?
Go in the house and make the guy a sandwich? Escort him to the park? Give him a ride to a homeless shelter?

If kindness doesn't work then pump him full of lead
Buzzcook is online now  
Old August 12, 2010, 03:16 PM   #33
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,936
I would tell him the direction the park is and go about my business. Didnt sound like a threat to me at all.

Years ago my bro in law at the time whooped my sis, I ignored it until he hit my mom. I went over there, he was drunk, he picked up a stick, I knocked him out sent him to the hospital one punch (my usual method). Cops came, one wanted to arrest me but due to the bro in law being unconcious he couldnt file a request or say who hit him. Be carefull how you handle any situation, it may bite you hard even if you are in the right.

Bro in law died of cancer, I take care of my niece his daughter nowadays.
markj is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 03:30 PM   #34
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,226
Quote:
lol

He said an inch and a quarter, not one quarter:
Apparently, my donations came too late for myself. http://www.interdys.org/

With that said, I found Skans comments interesting.

Quote:
The bottom line is that, if I am in my own front yard (I understand that this may not have been the OP's scenario - not sure) and some drunk, nutty scary guy comes stagering down the street, whether I'm armed or not, I'm not going to tuck tail and run inside my house. Even if it's a relative's front yard, I'm not going to tuck tail and run inside the house. It's just not in my nature to act like that.
...............................
But, on my own land (or even on a relative's land), I believe that I have a moral duty to myself to stand my ground. It's not really a losing gambit, because I'd either be armed, or it would be fairly easy to arm myself quickly better than some guy carrying a stick. Even if I'm not armed, I'm pretty adept at defending myself against a drunk bum armed with a stick. It goes against every grain in my body to cower like a trapped animal on my own land and "wait for help".
A moral duty to stand your ground when you are outside and you aren't going to actually lose any ground to the advancing drunk/mental guy? Since the guy is a stranger to you, you don't have previous history with him, then why worry about standing your ground when it seems he is just passing through? Sometimes, getting out of the way of a passing disaster would be much more prudent, would it not.

Why risk the possibility of getting hurt or worse if you don't have to?
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011

Last edited by Double Naught Spy; August 12, 2010 at 11:07 PM.
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 03:41 PM   #35
Jimmy10mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2010
Location: Greenacres, FL
Posts: 891
I voted for option 2 but I wouldn't approach him. I would have pointed in the general direction of the park and said it was "that way". I am an old guy but I was an ironworker for twenty years, have been lifting weights and riding bicycles regularly for years so I'm in fairly decent shape for 61.

I've worked in a street tattoo shop for the twenty years since giving up the ironwork and I'm not easily intimidated. If the guy was still there and hassling me I would have tried for the house/phone. The ccw would have been the absolute last resort if I didn't think I could take him down with my hands if it should have been necessary.
Jimmy10mm is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 03:57 PM   #36
m&p45acp10+1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 3,307
I would go into the house, and call for help for him. I am a medic. My mindset tends to be a tad differant from everyone else at times. I was trained to know they are not always just drunk.
That sounds similar to a sitution that happened to a very close friend of our family. Thing was he was the guy staggering, he was flailing with a flyswatter. He had fallen down a few times. Nothing he was saying was discernable to anyone that saw him. The police showed up after some one called them. They assumed he was just another tansient. They tackeled him. cuffed him. Took him to jail. 3 hours later he was found dead in the drunk tank.
He looked drunk, his breath smelled like he was drunk. He was acting like he was drunk. Only thing is he had 2 medic alert tags on. One was a bracelet, the other a necklace. He was diabetic. His insulin level spiked. His family sued the crap out of the city police department, and the county.
Now they check the blood sugar levels of all of the people they are booking into the jail. I responded to more than one call to the jail for diabetic emergencies in the time after they imlemented the testing. Unfortunately it cost a man his life for them to implement such a program.
__________________
No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.
m&p45acp10+1 is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 04:14 PM   #37
Elmer
Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2008
Posts: 65
It's good to see the majority of the opinions given are rational and reasonable.

Those who carry on about "not backing down" from an unnecessary use of deadly force situation, have clearly never been in one, or experienced the aftermath.

When you've lost your job, and spent your life savings on either defense attorneys, civil attorneys, or both, even if you're completely exonerated, get back to us on how proud you are that you defended your Uncle Bob's Bermuda grass from a homeless drunk........

There's a lot that Massad Ayoob has written over the years that I'd take issue with, but years ago, he wrote of buying drinks for several antagonists in a bar that were threatening him and trying to get him outside. Despite being armed, he realized that though he could likely justify using his gun against several large, violent attackers, the costs and hassle for doing so weren't worth a couple of bucks for beers. He was spot on, and I've done similar things, even with a badge in my pocket to go with the gun I was carrying.

The fact that you have a gun doesn't give you less reason to avoid a confrontation, it gives you more reason for doing so.
Elmer is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 04:15 PM   #38
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,549
Quote:
Originally Posted by m&p45acp10+1
That sounds similar to a sitution that happened to a very close friend of our family. Thing was he was the guy staggering, he was flailing with a flyswatter. He had fallen down a few times. Nothing he was saying was discernable to anyone that saw him. The police showed up after some one called them. They assumed he was just another tansient. They tackeled him. cuffed him. Took him to jail. 3 hours later he was found dead in the drunk tank.
He looked drunk, his breath smelled like he was drunk. He was acting like he was drunk. Only thing is he had 2 medic alert tags on. One was a bracelet, the other a necklace. He was diabetic. His insulin level spiked.
Thank you for confirming that this possibility isn't as far-fetched as all that ...

And I'm sorry for the loss... to his family and to yours.
__________________
Thomas Jefferson never said that.
http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...ous-quotations

Last edited by Vanya; August 12, 2010 at 04:22 PM.
Vanya is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 04:30 PM   #39
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: The First State
Posts: 418
hmmm....I'd say go into the home and lock everything while calling the police. If he breaks in then take him out. If not the wait for cops and have them to a perimeter search outside your home and tell them everything that happened including the mans intended destination. Give a description of what he was wearing and what he looked like including height, age, weight, and race. This will help law enforcement narrow their search. Keep your gun loaded next to you when you go to bed and a light and phone their as well. Always be prepared and even tell the neighbors to keep an eye out telling them what happend. This should really help you out in the long run!
__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!
Big Tom is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 04:58 PM   #40
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,839
Quote:
Posted by Double Naught Spy: A moral duty to stand your ground when you are outside and you aren't going to actually lose any ground to the advancing drunk/mental guy?
I can't figure that out either.

"Moral duty"...hmmm.

Quote:
Since the guy is a stranger to you, you have [no] previous history with him, then why worry about standing your ground when it seems he is just passing through?
Good question!

Quote:
Sometimes, getting out of the way of a passing disaster would be much more prudent, would it not.
I certainly think so. There's nothing lost in doing that, unless one has some idea that "standing ground" is a "moral duty."

Quote:
Why risk the possibility of getting hurt or worse if you don't have to?
That has always been the right idea, but these days , when just the unexpected exchange of even the smallest amount of bodily fluid can result in a long, slow, death, it is usually best to avoid unnecessary contact with anyone who even appears unsavory.

Quote:
Posted by Elmer: Those who carry on about "not backing down" from an unnecessary use of deadly force situation, have clearly never been in one, or experienced the aftermath.
Not only that, but if they have ever read any accounts about people who have (might I recommend In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob), they have either failed to understand the message or somehow believe that it cannot happen to them.

Quote:
When you've lost your job, and spent your life savings on either defense attorneys, civil attorneys, or both, even if you're completely exonerated, get back to us on how proud you are that you defended your Uncle Bob's Bermuda grass from a homeless drunk.......
I think that expresses rather effectively the importance of weighing the upside potential with the downside risk. The guy in the yard has nothing to gain and everything to lose.

Quote:
The fact that you have a gun doesn't give you less reason to avoid a confrontation, it gives you more reason for doing so.
Some people find that out the hard way.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 05:06 PM   #41
Capt Charlie
Staff
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,302
Quote:
He was diabetic. His insulin level spiked.
Yep. I've dealt with this several times over the years, but I'm curious about this:

Quote:
...his breath smelled like he was drunk.
We were taught that the breath of a diabetic in insulin shock smells like acetone (like nail polish remover), and my experience attests to that. In fact, modern BAC machines (Breathalyzer) can distinguish between alcohol and acetone, and will warn the operator if acetone is present.

Perhaps he was drinking as well? At any rate, our SOP in dealing with odd behavior like that is to have paramedics check them out before we leave the scene.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt Charlie is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 05:54 PM   #42
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,417
Quote:
But... I guess it was his choice to get drunk, or not take care of his diabetes, or whatever, so if he staggers into the street and gets hit by a car it will be his own fault.
.

Yep, that's how I see it. I'm not a "save the world" type person. On the other hand, I've had my share of times where I've stopped and rendered aid to complete strangers who is injured, lying in the middle of the street or nearly dead lying on the side of the road. I'm pretty good at being able to judge the difference between a drunken bum and someone who is hurt and in need of help.

Someone staggering down the road who clearly looks like a drunken bum in my neighborhood is not someone I choose to help. He's someone I want out of my neighborhood. He's not someone for whom I'm going to leave my front yard and run inside of the house over. Nor am I going to call the police if he's just walking down the street. I'm going to stand my ground, observe the guy, but not help him or antagonize him in any manner whatsoever - other than stare at him. I really don't understand those of you who have some kind of problem with this. To each his own, I guess.
Skans is online now  
Old August 12, 2010, 06:15 PM   #43
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,552
Going back and forth between options 1 and 2, . . . I voted 2.

I'm a pastor, . . . and a people person, . . . at this point there is nothing that would put a rational fear in me, . . . especially since I have my 1911 and an automobile.

If he is dragging his feet, . . . stumbling a little, . . . I'll just start with keeping the automobile between me and him, . . . have a little chat, . . . point him in the right direction, . . . and be done with it.

I'd even be tempted to offer to make him a sandwich and get him a soft drink as I would surmize he was sleeping on the ground not too long ago, and is probably homeless and hungry.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 06:18 PM   #44
jgcoastie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 2,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by spacecoast
Does it matter that he is not of your race?
In certain areas of certain towns in many states: Yes, it does.

It is regrettable, but also true.
__________________
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.
jgcoastie is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 06:44 PM   #45
Therealkoop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2010
Posts: 285
"What? the park? Its like, 8 blocks that way! No, Im not driving you there."

I would probably say something along those lines while I continued my work. If he started getting shady I would just go inside. If he tried to get inside, well, then I might consider pulling my firearm.
Therealkoop is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 08:01 PM   #46
rtpzwms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2010
Location: OTS
Posts: 793
I would go inside and call the police. This person may need help and there are laws regarding public drunkenness. You have not been close enough to properly evaluate this person and that is why we have the men and women in blue. To all I know he may need help be suicidal I would want someone to come to help me if I was in this condition. The police are the best equipped to handle these things. This is not always good guy, bad guy but may be someone in trouble. What if he is a bad guy and you let him walk. How would you feel if you saw him and did nothing? What happens if he rapes someone just down the street 45 min. later? I don't want to live with the though that I could have helped and did nothing. No I will defend life only, property can be replaced.
rtpzwms is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 08:21 PM   #47
BaboonBlockParty
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2010
Posts: 7
I'd just watch the guy. In my experience, people like that usually aren't studying you in the least bit. I pick up hitchhikers from time to time; they don't have a car because they're down on their luck that's all. 9 out of 10 times, they just want a ride.
BaboonBlockParty is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 09:52 PM   #48
Rampant_Colt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 1,476
fear is our most primal emotion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaboonBlockParty
I'd just watch the guy. In my experience, people like that usually aren't studying you in the least bit. I pick up hitchhikers from time to time; they don't have a car because they're down on their luck that's all. 9 out of 10 times, they just want a ride.
Or it's Charles Manson out looking for his next victim. Hitchhikers? Seriously?


The original post is the type of scenario you don't want to get involved in if avoidable.. Emotionally Disturbed Person (EDP)= Unpredictable and irrational behavior
__________________
member of an elite paramilitary organization: Eagle Scouts
Rampant_Colt is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 10:21 PM   #49
Huzyerdaddy
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Posts: 7
Call your health caare providor and see if you can have him added to your plan to get him the help he needs
__________________
"The Actions of the Few Dicate the Fate of Many"
Alexander the Great
Huzyerdaddy is offline  
Old August 12, 2010, 10:46 PM   #50
Magnum-PI
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2010
Posts: 37
Things to consider...

1) You can't use your pistol as a means to control...the pistol can only be used in self defense when there is an immediate clear and present danger to yourself or however the law is worded in your state. I dont believe any state will allow a person to use a pistol as a means of control.

2) If you draw your pistol when its not justified, then you might have comitted the felony of assault with a firearm. The further away the guy is from you, the less justified drawing your pistol becomes.

3) Drawing your pistol elevates everything to an entirely different level. He may charge at you, surrender or do just about anything. Someone observing from far away might think you are the one in the wrong and draw/fire on you.

4) A man at full sprint can cover ten feet in a few seconds. So to prevent the guy from hitting you or to give you more time then you are best to increase the distance. Even 5-10 more feet away will give you at least another 1-2 seconds so you can react. 4-5 seconds of time is much better then 2-3 seconds of time.

5) Someone clubbing a vehicle is different then someone clubbing a person. If someone is banging on a car then no one is getting hurt just yet. No reason to draw at that point.

6) Sometimes its best to keep a straight face and say nothing. If you smile or frown, then either of those expressions can be interpretted by someone as a hostile act. If you yell at the guy, then again, it takes things to another level.

Here is my humble personal opinion. I believe the best action would be to increase your distance away from this individual to at least 50-100 feet and observe. Hide yourself so that if he looks over in your direction it wont be obvious. If he decides to move towards you, then keep going in the other direction. The only time it might be justified to draw your weapon is if he decides to charge you at a full sprint, he is within about 15-20 feet and you are unable to retreat fast enough. The only time it might be justified to fire your weapon is if he is in full charge, you cant retreat fast enough and he is about to hit you with the club.

In any event, the best action is to retreat, observe from a distance and only become involved if this person is right about to hit you or another individual. Any other action might get you into trouble with the final arbiter being a judge or jury. Before drawing your pistol, always ask yourself if its worth going to jail over. If its not worth it, then dont draw.

The question posed in this thread seems valid, but the mention of the person's race puts a dark cloud over it. If I were the mod, I would edit out the mention of the race or at least say something publicly that putting that in the thread wasnt the right thing to do.
Magnum-PI is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15998 seconds with 8 queries