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Old August 10, 2010, 09:52 AM   #26
ScottRiqui
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Originally posted by mete -- I remember the case in PA where a couple was in a bank and the man carried concealed. Two BGs came in to rob the bank. The wife , in a loud whisper, told her husband 'don't draw your gun' .The BGs heard that and immediately killed him !!
Do you have any citation or link to this story? I would think it would be mentioned on PAopencarry.org in their argument for open-carry, but all they have to say on the subject is this:

"There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or 'the first one shot' when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. "
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Old August 10, 2010, 10:04 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by ScottRiqui
Do you have any citation or link to this story? I would think it would be mentioned on PAopencarry.org in their argument for open-carry, but all they have to say on the subject is this:

"There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or 'the first one shot' when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. "
But there is credible evidence that stuff like this happens:
http://vagunforum.net/general-discus...day-t1225.html
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Old August 10, 2010, 10:11 AM   #28
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NavyLT,

I have always wondered about that statistic where fewer than 1% of the time are the guns ever fired when they are shown. I was always under the impression that you are not to draw your weapon unless you intend to use it.

If you ever get a few thousand hours of free time head over the the OC forums and check out the kwikrnu character in the Tennessee section. Have a few grains of salt ready.

HH
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Old August 10, 2010, 10:22 AM   #29
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NavyLT,

I have always wondered about that statistic where fewer than 1% of the time are the guns ever fired when they are shown. I was always under the impression that you are not to draw your weapon unless you intend to use it.

If you ever get a few thousand hours of free time head over the the OC forums and check out the kwikrnu character in the Tennessee section. Have a few grains of salt ready.

HH
I spend as much time on the OC forums as I do here :-). I have a pretty easy job! I am only on opencarry.org, are there others? PM me with links, please.

I, too, am under the belief of not drawing the gun if I am not going to use it. And I doubt that I will ever draw my gun in a self-defense situation and not shoot, but that is because I am trained and conditioned to draw and fire two shots center mass within 4 seconds. Most gun carriers, especially in urban areas where most violent crimes occur, probably do not get the opportunity to practice several times a month like some of us do. So they will be less conditioned to do automatically everything that we do. The time it takes to actually get the gun ready to fire may be enough time for the BG to realize what is going on and flee.
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Old August 10, 2010, 10:56 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by NavyLT
I spend as much time on the OC forums as I do here :-). I have a pretty easy job! I am only on opencarry.org
I am also a member of opencarry.org. There are "characters" on there just like there are "characters" on this forum. The difference is that the mods on this forum create an environment that make it difficult for the "characters" here the thrive (which is why I stay here) whereas the moderation at opencarry.org is must more lenient.

As far as an OC'er being the "first target", I've never seen a news report of this kind. I've only seen things like "I heard this story where this guy...". There is a story of an OC'er that was robbed at gunpoint for this weapon. I found the story relatively suspicious because the OC'er claimed to have to help the robber get the gun out of his retention holster. Also it was a failure of situational awareness. Either way, there is only one story that I know of that made an OC'er any kind of target. If that is true, there have more than likely been many many more crimes prevented by the presence of an OCer that we will never hear about.
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Old August 10, 2010, 12:01 PM   #31
mete
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The PA story happened years ago perhaps 20 years , before the internet trolls.
I've had a carry permit for 40 years ! I take the whole subject very seriously. I'm saddened to see many who claim a 'right' to own and carry a gun yet take no time ,effort and money to get the best training they can find .When I first got my permit there were no good defense courses , now there are many. My efforts to get people to take these courses has had little effect !
Read the comments on the forums and you'll undestand what I mean .The CCW badges, those who know exactly how it's going to happen , etc.
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Old August 10, 2010, 08:07 PM   #32
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How is that warm and inclusive feeling ever created if those "shocked and fearful" never see a normal, everyday American carrying a gun? The attitude that guns should always be hidden away only promotes the idea that guns are evil things that should be kept hidden.
NavyLT, dont get me wrong Im not against open carry whatsoever... However that said I do think that in some areas a period of introduction reduces the amount of time you end up explaining to the police that your within your rights, ect. I also think that some people are more easily won over by the carrot rather than the stick and lets face it the general media for years have cast guns as everything bad.

I would argue that by introducing the idea and then letting them get use to the idea for a short period is more productive than shock and awe in community relations..... Yes its all subjective but it is my opinion.

If you open carry wherever legal absolutely I would back you up but sometimes a little consideration helps.
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Old August 10, 2010, 08:25 PM   #33
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I also think that some people are more easily won over by the carrot rather than the stick
How does concealed carry even present a "carrot" to the public? They can't see it! They don't know you have it! Isn't that the purpose of concealed carry, to keep the public from knowing that someone is carrying a gun?
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Old August 10, 2010, 08:33 PM   #34
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Unless you live in Alaska or live in an area frequented by large bears, I never understood the purpose of open carry.
If you lived in Michigan seven or eight years ago, or Wisconsin now, instead of Illinois, you wouldn't have said that. We in Michigan carried openly because it was the only legal way, if you weren't the sherriff's personal friend or relative, and we seemed to be the only ones that knew it WAS legal.
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Old August 10, 2010, 08:34 PM   #35
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Alright, since it is brought up, here is my 2 cents.

I support the right of open carry. There, I said it.

However, I do not think it is a good decision. Not from a tactics angle, from a simple social aspect. The bottom line as far as I'm concerned is this: If you open carry, you will have contact with law enforcement be it good or bad, and you will have contact with people who do not, will not, or refuse to understand gun rights and why they are important to you.

I live in WA state, where open carry is legal, but is in one of the many "gray" areas of the state firearms code. It is generally a bad idea to carry openly in Washington. I always carry concealed in town. I do open carry shooting out in the middle of nowhere where there is no one else, but in town, NO WAY!!

Agree or not, I have said my piece.
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Old August 10, 2010, 09:59 PM   #36
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I live in WA state, where open carry is legal, but is in one of the many "gray" areas of the state firearms code.
And what, exactly, is "gray" about it? It's hard to be a gray area when the state has complete 100% preemption - no grandfather clause - no "home rule" status. The Washington Supreme Court has ruled that open carry of a firearm is not "brandishing" and is not grounds for any criminal charges. Kind of hard to be a "gray" area with that kind of legislative and judicial support. Every week there is a meeting of open carriers somewhere in Washington state.

Again, I am sorry, but this is more FUD from someone who has a personal opinion against open carry.
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Old August 10, 2010, 10:12 PM   #37
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The opencarry.org site's Michigan forum has a nearly 300 page thread about everyday open carry experiences. I recommend people go read that thread before talking about how the public and/or police view open carry. Here are some stories off the top of my head:

One OCer was stopped by police, who informed him that they really liked what he was doing... and that he should look out because other LEOs from a different jurisdiction had been issued a BOLO for him and are headed this way so he might want to move on.

Another OC'er had the police called on him by the manager of a restaurant. The police entered the restaurant, walked up to the manager, talked to the manager, and then left. They never spoke to the OC'er. From what the OC'er was able to overhear, the conversation was mainly the police trying to convince the manager that OCing was legal and asking the manager if the OC'er had been asked to leave (he hadn't).

Countless stories of thumbs ups, back pats, and smiles and handshakes. Even more stories of curious people just walking up to OC'ers to ask questions. Overwhelmingly positive public interaction (and believe me it's overwhelming, OC'ers love negative reactions so you hear about every one of those and there are very few).

Here is the link, from page one: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...periences-here.
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Old August 10, 2010, 10:17 PM   #38
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Those have been my experiences as well, Sefner. Getting ready to go to a big open carry picnic next weekend. There's normally 30 to 50 of us. We have a couple of speakers. Local police usually come - not to arrest or harass us but to socialize with us. A couple TV stations usually cover the event. We do it in a pretty bad part of town. Our first there was right after a shooting. The local residents of the apartment complex appreciate us doing our picnics there because the riff raff seems to disappear for a while after our get togethers.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ke-meet...8-15
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Old August 10, 2010, 10:38 PM   #39
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The only way to aleviate most of this 'fear of public outcry' would be, and I am fully aware that it will never happen in any form in our current media, to educate via infomercials and articles in the newspapers/TV spelling out clearly the legality of open carry in a particular state. It certainly wouldn't be difficult for a writer to write up a story that would take 1 minute to read on the 6:00 news. Education of the public is the goal here, and once John Q Public understands that the guy next to him is legally allowed to have that gun on his side, there isn't much cause to raise alarm, providing the carrier is not being a jerk.

I can also see the need for any/all police agencies to have an educational briefing with all their officers, so that nobody gets harrassed for lack of officer knowledge. Obviously, that isn't happening either. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for the public, it should work both ways.

As said earlier, I am fully aware that it will never happen, but this is what it would take, I feel.

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Old August 10, 2010, 10:39 PM   #40
Sefner
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NavyLT, we in MI hold picnics too. I've never been to one due to the drive and the timeframes. As far as I know, no one has been shot at these picnics

My experiences here in Ann Arbor are closer to non-experiences. Nothing really happens. People look and stare but that's about it. I would find it funny if they thought I was a threat pushing my shopping cart with my eggplant and asparagus. I think most people think that OC'ers are just LEOs. I tend to wear cargo or dress pants/shorts with button up shirts or polos, 5.11 6" ATAC boots (awesome boots), and a random belt wherever I am regardless of carry status. Most OC'ers that I have seen wear about the same (some wear jeans with a tucked in shirt or some variation).

I was mildly skeptical about OCing before I did it, especially in a city like Ann Arbor. Now that I've done it I'm more than convinced that it helps the image of gun owners.

sixgun, part of OCing in MI is LEO education... It has gotten much much better recently, with less and less "incidents" between OC'ers and LEO's. Most (not all!) of these incidents were LEO's who were simply unaware of the laws. Some of these incidents were OC'ers pushing boundaries they should not have been pushing.

As far as public education, a lot of interesting work goes into that. Right now in the city of Rochester, there is a really cool festival called Arts, Beats, and Eats. The organization that puts on the festival has banned guns from the premises. The problem with that is that the festival is held on city streets and no one can ban guns on city streets (public place and MI has a pre-emption law, city is leasing the property). Some OC'ers really wanted to attend the event and pointed out to the organizers that the clause in the contract was invalid. So the city of Rochester started playing with the contract and trying to redefine areas and apply other laws that didn't apply etc etc. Long story short, it's now all over the new herre in SE Michigan. Anyone that has listened to the nightly news now knows that OCing is legal in MI.

Then there are the countless individual interactions that occur every day. Hearts and minds, one by one.
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Old August 10, 2010, 10:49 PM   #41
NavyLT
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Originally Posted by sixgun67
It certainly wouldn't be difficult for a writer to write up a story that would take 1 minute to read on the 6:00 news.
We have had multiple open carry events covered by several news reporters and aired on the news. I've been to two personally myself with the news crews there and have seen the stories on the broadcasts. One event they even broadcast us live - it was a get together to discuss the action we were going to take against the illegal Seattle gun ban that Nickels tried. I am going to a picnic this weekend that the news crews have already said they will cover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7xNQ...eature=related

Quote:
Originally Posted by sexgun67
I can also see the need for any/all police agencies to have an educational briefing with all their officers, so that nobody gets harrassed for lack of officer knowledge.
There are no less than 10 police agencies that have created training bulletins for their departments regarding the legality of open carry in Washington. Many other agencies simply plagiarize the existing training bulletins for their own training.

http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?PHP...ownloads;cat=1

Last edited by NavyLT; August 10, 2010 at 10:54 PM.
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Old August 10, 2010, 11:01 PM   #42
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Sefner, Navy, that is absolutely great for your states.
Unfortunately around here we don't hear anything at all in the media, except for the occasional gunshow, and quite frankly, only a select few radio stations/billboards advertise them.
I've seen the looks and heard the wispers that generate whenever an OC'er shows themselves. It just frustrates me to no end that a public mass can be so uneducated, if that is the word. Certainly makes me think long and hard about OCing. I would love to, but I take my gun out of my holster and stash it in the truck before going into a quick stop/store and such. The holster alone gets those same looks.
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Old August 10, 2010, 11:02 PM   #43
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It's never going to change if all the public sees of guns comes from the Brady Bunch!
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Old August 10, 2010, 11:03 PM   #44
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Hit the nail on the head there, Navy.

The public is so darned indoctrinated by them, it just seems like an unwinnable fight.

Each and every small gain on the firearms front is a breath of fresh air to me.
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Old August 11, 2010, 02:50 PM   #45
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Interesting thread. I'm also beginning to think I'm the only chic on this forum. If there are any others out there, drop me a line. My dad worked in corrections with sexual predators, so since I was old enough to talk, I was drilled on how to not be a target in public. I don't know that I would open carry if it was legal but I would say it depends on each person. It depends on who you are and how likely you are to be a victim. I'm in one of those demographics that makes me an easy mark, unless I display that I'm not. Again, don't think I would carry open, but being perceived as an easy mark changes when you open carry. If I was a big strapping dude, I doubt I'd even consider it. But the elderly, infirm, gender or orientation variant, slow or female may have a different story. Just throwing in another opinion and a little dose of estrogen.
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Old August 12, 2010, 04:58 AM   #46
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Most of the OC people are childish 'look at me I have a gun ' !!
I have been carrying about 3 weeks now. Not one person has said anything, well one did ask about the firearms laws here because he was from out east and wanted to buy a gun. Other than him, no-one, and I have been all over town. As a side benefit, people haven't been tailgating my scooter...
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Old August 12, 2010, 12:32 PM   #47
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Ya know? I keep telling myself, "Self? - Stay outa these threads!" But here I am, wading into the ever controversial "Open Carry Thread!"

Used to be, that an honest man (or woman) never concealed their arms. That was the realm of hucksters; thieves; robbers and other assorted brigands. Those who concealed their weapons were generally bad men with equally bad repute.

Now, we've come around exactly 180 degrees in our thinking, and see those who choose to openly carry as the bad-mens. sigh.

I just don't understand the animosity of some of you, towards how a person carries their defensive firearm... Well, I do understand, actually. It's called indoctrination... Despite what some of you think, carrying openly is a defensive tactic, while concealed carry is a purely offensive tactic.

There is not a single person who can effectively argue that carrying concealed is a defensive tactic. It is not. It cannot be. Look at the very words many of you use to describe the reasons you carry (concealed).

Those words boil down to having the advantage of surprise. Such an advantage is an offensive tactic by its very nature. So then, carrying concealed is a means of using an offensive tactic that is publicly condoned, er, preferred.

I don't begrudge anyone of the ability to carry concealed. In some States, it is the only sanctioned means of carrying the type of protection that someone may need (even if it is needed only once in a lifetime, or never).

What I will say, is that in some respects, carrying concealed is playing into the hands of the anti-gun people. Crooks carry firearms (and other assorted weapons) concealed. They want the advantage of surprise and ambush. As I said, it is an offensive tactic. It is therefore a very small leap in logic to conclude that citizens who carry concealed, do so with the same intent as crooks. I'm sure all of you are tired of that analogy? But it is so easy an argument to make. One which the anti's make all the time, and to good effect.

The argument against open carry boils down to one simple theme: It scares the public. - It scares the public because in metropolitan areas, it hasn't been done in ages.

It is this Fear, that the anti's use. To good effect, I might add. But it is also an argument that fails with much less effort than the opposite argument.

Regardless of which method you choose to carry (assuming you live in a State that gives you such options), I would hope you are serious enough to get training in your particular mode of carry. Preferably, in both modes.
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Old August 13, 2010, 07:44 AM   #48
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Well Said.
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Old August 13, 2010, 08:10 AM   #49
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siggygirl, welcome to the Firingline. I would hope you stick around, we need more ladies, like you, to help offset the testosterone that constantly floats around here!
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Old August 13, 2010, 12:04 PM   #50
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Thank you, Antipitas. I kinda like it here, and I don't scare easily Anyone who finds too much estrogen in my posts can feel free to roll their eyes in private (like I do) and do their best to sort out how women can speak. I know sometimes we don't make sense to men. But, we have much to learn from each, both ways around.
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