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Old June 28, 1999, 03:14 PM   #1
johnboy
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I know a lot of people who shoot IDPA, but they do not always shoot or compete with what they actually carry. Some do, some don't.

I carry a Springfield Compact, but shoot a full size 1911, Kimber Stainless Target, in IDPA. They operate the same, weigh about the same, but since the Compact has a one inch shorter barrel and an officers model frame, it is easier to carry.

How do you feel about that? What do carry and compete with and why?

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Old June 28, 1999, 03:48 PM   #2
Morgan
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I don't carry (yet) but shoot what I will carry - USP40/f. I think that's the best way to get the most out of IDPA.

I see no problem with what you're doing, especially as the pistols have the same manual of arms, etc. Actually, just the practice of shooting, moving, using cover, etc., is probably useful even if you only carry a pocket gun or carry something completely different from your carry gun. Plus, it's fun, no matter what you shoot.

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Old June 28, 1999, 10:43 PM   #3
Cat
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I most often shoot a S&WModel 19 in IDPA. I most often carry a S&W Model 10 for work. The big difference is the sights.
Secondary carry was my Gold Cup which I also shoot in IDPA. New work pistol is soon to be Glock Model 17. I do shoot a Model 34 in IDPA. And just for the fun of it I just picked up a S&W Model 39-2 that I will shoot in IDPA and carry off the job for personal protection.
Betwen contact distance and 50' I shoot all of them about the same. Beyond that my eyes let me down and I have to slow way down to get a good sight picture.
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Old June 29, 1999, 12:21 AM   #4
Bullmoose
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I shot my first IDPA shoot yesterday and it was good fun. I used a KelTec P11 because I got it for a carry gun and carried it in my home made Yacqui slide under an over shirt to be as realistic as possible. I am 65 and wasn't winning matches when I was 30 so the only thing I was hoping for was that the P11 wouldn't burp or die on me. It didn't. I want to get as much realistic practice as possible and wring out the P11 to be sure that it is worthy of CCW. Beating my shooting buddy is on my list of things to do, but that is only a small bonus when it happens. Guess I am lucky that the local club doesn't check holsters to the accepted list or my own would be out? I printed off the application today and will fill it out and post it right away. I'll be your newest member for about 10 seconds. I understand that the ranks are growing very fast. Jim
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Old June 29, 1999, 07:58 AM   #5
johnboy
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Speaking about holsters, I have not seen anybody DQ'd for using a nonapproved holster.
My club has been running matches now for going on two years and we have not told anyone they could not use their holster. The only thing we have done is tell them if it has a strap, they must use it. Thats it.

I think as long as your holster is clearly designed for concealment and fits within the intent of IDPA rules, you can use it.
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Old June 29, 1999, 11:06 AM   #6
Cheapo
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Always shot competition with box-stock guns. Trigger work and maybe tightening the slide is the only work performed.

When I finally decide on a comp job, that will be what I carry and compete with.

I do *not* want to get a false sense of speed/security/familiarity with my firearms, borne out of match & practice experience which is under conditions more favorable than what I'm likely to face in the very unlikely event of force confrontation.

It's bad enough that practice is under conditions more favorable because you are not in mortal danger.

BUT, lots of practice with anything (even raceguns firing slingshot loads) is far better than once-yearly practice with a totally realistic rig!
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Old June 29, 1999, 02:18 PM   #7
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Well... I think there are some stages of IDPA that can be too far out of the real world. I mean, I am NOT going to be taking head shots at someone from 15 yards away. I'm gonna be running my @$$ off getting out of there. I just can't convince myself that such a shot is a life and death situation.

But since the COF requires me to make that shot, I have choosen to modify my IDPA choice just slightly from my carry gun. I use the full size Kimber Polymer for competition because of the longer barrel for those longer shots. My Kimber Combat Carry is for everyday. But, every so often, I still shoot the Combat Carry in a match. Just for the practice.



------------------
Bubba
IDPA# A04739
====
It is long been a principal of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully. - Jeff Cooper

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Old June 29, 1999, 03:09 PM   #8
Cheapo
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NNOT and no offense, Bubba, but...

Unless there's cover (not to be confused with concealment), I'm not running away unless the BG is facing the other way and otherwise engaged. Or 40+ yards away.

Inside 40, I'm very concerned. Even if I zig-zag.

Following initial engagement, a failure to stop means head shots. All the way out to 50 yds.

I fear that IDPA is "dumbing down" self-defense to its closest-range common denominator.

Of course, HCI may want to compromise and give us 100 percent lightweight plastic bullets with a danger range of only 25 yards, and lethality out to only 5 yards.

Then shall we practice only at near-contact distance? Not me!
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Old June 29, 1999, 04:09 PM   #9
Morgan
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Cheapo - Saturday's IDPA match (Front Range IDPA in Colorado) had quite a few long shots, as well as near contact distance targets. No dumbing down here. One guy even ran out of ammo trying to finish the stage!

Needless to say, the guys running our club are diabolical . If you like tougher stuff talk to your club officers - I'm sure they'd let you design some stages.

[This message has been edited by Morgan (edited June 29, 1999).]
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Old June 29, 1999, 06:25 PM   #10
EAF
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Hello, all.

I carry and shoot at IDPA matches a SIG P239 9mm. I figure that an IDPA match is a chance to put enough rounds through my P239 in various conditions that I will have a pretty good idea how it will function when I might need it the most.

I don't remember who I heard this from...Fight like you train, train like you fight. It makes a whole lot of sense to me, so I haven't seen much of a reason to use one gun at the matches and a different one to carry. Have a nice day.

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Old June 29, 1999, 10:57 PM   #11
ClydeVA
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Johnboy,
I carry a Glock 23 off and Sig 226 on. I shoot multiple weapons in IDPA. (Smith 686 2.5" with fullhouse loads & a snap holster, Glock 23, H&K P7 , Colt 1911 - and if I am thinking about a new gun I borrow one for a match) I know many people will argue too many manual of arms. IDPA can help you see the advantage and/or disadvantage (limitations) to your weapon choice(s).

We have thought of having a "shoot what you carried in" match. For those people who change guns once they get to a match and/or add a mag to their belt. Get what you want out of IDPA but remember Good Training is worth paying for.

Practice..Practice..Practice

------------------



[This message has been edited by ClydeVA (edited June 29, 1999).]
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Old June 30, 1999, 12:09 AM   #12
Rob Pincus
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I think it should be pretty clear from my earlier posts ont his topic that I shoot what I carry. Furthermore, I carry it the way I normally would at the match.. including concealment.

I think to not do so is to go against the spirit of IDPA.
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Old June 30, 1999, 09:12 AM   #13
johnboy
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Nice to hear from you Rob. We have decided at our club all matches will now be shot from concealment from here on. Thats the way we carry so might as well shoot matches that way.

I think matches should give you a work out. Short range 3 to 5 yards, medium, 7 to 10 yards, and long 15 to 25 yards. Now I am not saying all three should be in a single stage. But in a match with multiple stages of fire they should be. I know some who grip and rip at anything under 10 yards, but have problems at 25 yards.

I personally do not think head shoots at 15 to 25 yards should be necessary but it can be done. Like Morgan said, design your own course of fire. At my club, we would be more than happy to let you. Selecting and coming with multiple courses of fire every month can get old.

Johnboy IDPA#A02199

[This message has been edited by johnboy (edited June 30, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by johnboy (edited July 01, 1999).]
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Old June 30, 1999, 10:37 AM   #14
Rob Pincus
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Sorry, Johnboy, didn't realize until I checked your profile that you were from Tullahoma....

Glad to hear that you guys are going to full concealment.

My schedule has me hoppin', but I am looking forward to making the State match... doubt I can get back before then..but If I do, I'll be sure to bring my vest again .

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Old June 30, 1999, 01:51 PM   #15
Cheapo
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Great comments in this thread. For a bit of perspective, I believe in training a bit beyond what's expected, for both the knowledge of capability, and to "over-train" a bit for the scared spitless loss of skill under stress factor.

Morgan: Sounds like your club does it right. Is it near Denver? I like diabolical, for reasons discussed below.

IDPA seems like the best bet going right now, but I see some over-emphasis on the concealment/carry mode.

Though I agree that the scenarios should be more reality-based than IPSC tends to be, requiring all draws from concealment does not allow me to practice the way I carry while hiking--open carry.

In other words, IDPA is rapidly becoming a club for CCW people and CCW people only. Besides open carry, the seated at the desk scenario, gun in car glovebox (condition empty, mag out no less!), and gun already in the hand scenarios are all neglected.

As far as strictly limiting it to "realistic" based on gunfight statistics, is that how we want our airline pilots to train? After all, 99.9whatever landings are with all engines running, right? Even looking at the "most common" in-flight mishaps, don't they train equally in all, rather than limiting their practice to the David Letterman top ten reasons why the plane crashed?

Since I don't CCW in public places, and carry concealed only on private property under very limited circumstances, the deployment requirements of IDPA don't serve my needs. So I practice those things on my own.

But I sure agree with the IDPA no silly holsters rule!!! Ain't no way you can tell me that a holster that pops the gun out when you sit in a car's bucket seat is "practical." They should have dumped that simple 14-inch hop retention rule 15 years ago.
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Old June 30, 1999, 02:39 PM   #16
Morgan
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Cheapo - north of Denver, which is where I live. One of the stages at our last match started kneeling with a coffee pot in the strong hand over a (simulated) fire with our back to the course of fire. Another was started sitting and drinking a cup of water with our strong hand!

If this sounds like fun, we still have openings for the <a href="http://ericcom.com/IDPAnCO/">Colorado State IDPA Championships</a>, and you can sign up until July 15. Just you try and take our trophys.
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Old July 1, 1999, 08:37 AM   #17
johnboy
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Cheapo,

We have done and continue to do scenarios as you describe. One was you are sitting at home watching TV, hear the door crash in grab your pistol of the table with mag of the table, put mag in pocket, and go to it. Another was a sort of drill, first stage gun on table in carry condition, start, second stage, gun on table, mag in gun, but not chambered, start, third, gun on table, mag beside it, start.

We do not just practice CCW, that gets boring. We do swingers, we use steel, we cover targets, all sorts of things. We have some devious people at our club also.

Morgan, our clup held the Tennessee State Championships last year and we are going to again this year. I know how much work goes into it. Hope you have a good turn out and good weather and everything else goes well also. Please post how your match went and what you thought worked well and what did not. Always looking to improve.

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Old July 1, 1999, 12:39 PM   #18
Rob Pincus
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Cheapo,

One of your comments really hit homewith me. THe idea that IDPA be taken over by CCW people is interesting. At first, I think that is a great idea. But, there are places where that is not practical. For example, an IDPA club in NJ would probably not have any legal CCW permit holders. In that club, I would stress "at home" scenarios. Or in Aizona or Vermont, where open carry is more prevelant than other places, I could see a lot of open carry scearios. But, for TN, FL, or other states where the most popular form of carry is conceled, I really think that concealed carry should be stressed. If anything, the drawing from concelament is only going to improve your draw in general.. and keep it from being sloppy.
I have no problem with the "sitting at home" scenarios.. except that I have kids and I would not likely have a loaded gun on the table or nightstand next to me.
The "gun in hand" scenarios also make some sense, especially for LEOs, who often have their guns out in dangerous situations.

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Old July 1, 1999, 04:42 PM   #19
Cheapo
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Rob--

I agree that in general, concealed should be emphasized, just not to the exclusion of other deployment situations.

Gun in hand actually makes more sense than it first appears. Read the Rifleman's "Armed Citizen" and you'll see quite a few situations where the homeowner hears or sees something fishy and is investigating...

Talk about a situation where the "do right" rule applies! You suspect something's amiss, retreating is impractical because the family's spread out in three rooms and you don't even know if there's really a threat (though sometimes it's rather clear), and you have compelling personal reasons to advance and systematically clear every room in the house.

Do I hear "slice the pie?"

A nasty driver once stopped ahead of me after I completely disengaged and pulled into the emergency lane of the freeway. He and his companion got out. I was alone. I gunned the engine and backed up 10-15 yards. Twice. Heavy traffic made repeated backing up unwise--even being parked was slightly hazardous.

I had my hand on the gun and a round chambered long before he had a chance to approach. Good thing for him he 1. produced no firearm, 2. did not approach to the danger zone, and 3. did not try to break my windows out.

Speed of draw in important and often determines the outcome (especially when combined with a first shot that goes true to aim), but it is often not a factor at all.

Speedy and correct shoot/no shoot decisions *are* very important.

So, Rob, how do you keep your gun stored at home? Practiced deploying it from that mode? Hope so!

BTW, have you fired that match with no sights yet? I'm rather curious (having had good success at 15 yards just playing around).

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Old July 1, 1999, 05:35 PM   #20
Rob Pincus
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No, I haven't even heard back from IDPA.. they may have rejected my application after hearing of my plans !! !!

At home, I usually carry openly, the same way I shoot about 75% of the time at the range. The few guns that are "stashed" are revolvers and are "ready to go".. not much to practice, beyond getting to them and picking them up.

Gun in hand is a viable option, and "tactical order" engagement seems to be the way that IDPA mandates "slicing the pie" in some scenarios. Shooting from the outside in sorta forces you to expose yourself a little more for each target.



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-Essayons
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Old July 5, 1999, 05:39 AM   #21
HeadHunter
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I of the things that I like about IDPA is that it is a local club based sport. So if a club is in a state that has CCW and wants to emphasize concealed carry, it can. A club in a state that doesn't have CCW can use open carry or gun in hand scenarios. Pretty easily tailored to local wants and needs. Look at where the original BOD is from, only 1 from a CCW state, the other 3 from non-CCW states. The IDPA Club manual states "IDPA is a Trophy ONLY Club based sport. All decisions are based on what is best for the individual member and the local club."
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Old July 5, 1999, 10:48 AM   #22
WESHOOT2
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Rob,

Everyone carries concealed in Vermont.

------------------
"All my ammo is factory ammo"

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Old July 7, 1999, 05:42 PM   #23
Futo Inu
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Morgan, EAF, & Rob: I agree with that philosophy.
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