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Old September 2, 2010, 06:39 AM   #26
Double Naught Spy
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As with any piece of technology a few factors can skew results. Battery charge, wire quality, propellant cartridge flaws, etc. can make it look like a person is "resistant".
So you are saying that the product has poor quality control? You have some sort of metalurgical study on the wired of a Taser from an event where it failed to stop a person and it was determined to be due to wire quality?

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I Guarantee you that if you have a Taser with all items working properly, barbs fully inserted with one dart hitting center mass and the other striking a leg you will go down. If they hit 3-4" apart on your chest...it may work or you may just feel pain but not be stopped.
You can guarantee all you want, but the Lt. in the above video was shot and the barbs impacted and embedded about a foot apart and he did not go down, not just 3-4".

Given that the shooter has no way to control the exact placement of the taser barbs, then he can't make one hit center of the chest and one hit a leg.
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Old September 2, 2010, 07:00 AM   #27
midlandwalther
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I just recently got taser certified. It is hell! Like some are saying, it's a tool that has it's positives and negatives. That's why LE carries more tools on the belt (OC and baton).

Barb placement and penetration are probably the most important factors for an effective tase. If a good spread is not completed then you can contact the individual at a third point and complete the cycle.

I am a believer though!
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Old September 2, 2010, 09:06 AM   #28
thesheepdog
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If your peripheral nerve receptors (nerves controlling your extremity muscles) are being blocked by a chemical (drug), another manipulative reaction (tazer) will not work, unless the second reaction is stronger than the first.
Some drugs will completely block all receptors in the nervous system, and the user will not feel pain and/or be affected by other reactions (tazer).

Speaking in plain english, view drugs as insulation on your body that prevents conduction of the tazer; If the nerves are protected (coated if you will) by the drugs, then a nervous system response to the tazer will not occur, until the drugs wear off, and/or the CNS is not damaged by the drugs (tolerance)

I am an ALS medic and know a lot about drugs and their affects on the body.
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Old September 2, 2010, 12:22 PM   #29
Capt Charlie
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Given that the shooter has no way to control the exact placement of the taser barbs, then he can't make one hit center of the chest and one hit a leg.
Only partly true DNS. While you can't get bullseye accuracy with a Taser, you can (roughly) control the impact points and spread of the probes. The top probe fires in a straight line with the Taser's laser sight, but the bottom probe fires at a 20 degree downward angle from that.

Given that, controlling the distance to target controls the spread between the probes. If memory serves, Taser Int. recommends that the effective range be between 7 and 21 feet.

By rotating the Taser, you have some control on where the bottom probe strikes.

Obviously, in a real defensive situation, you most likely won't have the luxury of doing the math before you fire , but the point is, it is possible.

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If your peripheral nerve receptors (nerves controlling your extremity muscles) are being blocked by a chemical (drug), another manipulative reaction (tazer) will not work, unless the second reaction is stronger than the first.
I understand what you're saying Sheepdog, but it sounds like you're implying that a Taser gains compliance through pain. With the older stun guns, that was the case, but that's not so with a genuine Taser.

The secret to a Taser's effectiveness isn't the voltage; it's the frequency at which the shock is delivered. The frequency matches that of the nerves firing the voluntary muscles and overrides those nerves so that, in essence, your body is no longer your own. Pain or not, you have no control.

Still, there are those individuals that, through some mysterious process, break all the rules, but it's been my experience (and I have used both the M-26 and X-26 Taser to great effect more than once) that, properly used, a Taser is effective the vast majority of times.

By the way, one way to tell if you have good probe contact is to listen. A properly deployed Taser with good solid contacts will be silent. If you hear that rapid "click click click", the probes haven't made good contact and it's time to go to plan B.
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Old September 2, 2010, 12:52 PM   #30
TylerD45ACP
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Personally, I think police overuse taser to an exponential degree. I understand that it allows a safer easier arrest but I think they are used way too much. What ever happened to a nice black jack. If the guy acts up you knock him out while other officers distract and have him at gunpoint. Obviously the situations vary Im just generalizing here.
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Old September 2, 2010, 01:44 PM   #31
thesheepdog
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I understand what you're saying Sheepdog, but it sounds like you're implying that a Taser gains compliance through pain. With the older stun guns, that was the case, but that's not so with a genuine Taser.
Yes and no. For a individual NOT on drugs, the response will be both pain and PNS shutdown; but some drugs change the electrical conductivity impulses in the body; therefore a tazer would be ineffective.
The way our reactions work is by electrical activity sent and recieved by the brain. So if you are on morphine or a pain reliever of the same type, electrical responses to the brain will occur only in the CNS; not the PNS.

I can go into detail all day long about the affects of drugs; but that would be boring.

I can see where body fat and poor placement of the probes will cause ineffectiveness; not doubt about that.

But being that a tazer depends on electrical conductivity; the performance CAN be drecreased by stimulants, alcohol and drugs. If there's no nervous system response back to the brain, the muscles will continue to function; unless that signal is interrupted by the tazer; then muscle activity will drop off completely except the muscle movement caused by the change in frequency (tazer is now the brain; controlling the muscles)

One thing that comes to mind is some of the Cardiac drugs we push while using a diffbrilator on cardiac patients. Some actually help increase the electrical response of the AED pads; and better your chances of restarting the heart.
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Old September 2, 2010, 05:58 PM   #32
Double Naught Spy
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Only partly true DNS. While you can't get bullseye accuracy with a Taser, you can (roughly) control the impact points and spread of the probes. The top probe fires in a straight line with the Taser's laser sight, but the bottom probe fires at a 20 degree downward angle from that.
Uh-huh. We can't get officers to put a single round consistently in the center of the chest of aggressive individuals with any amount of certainty (generally speaking shots missing completely 60-70% of the time), much less 2, so I can't see an officer being able to land one probe in the chest and calculating the 20% down angle relative to distance to get a second probe into a leg with anything resembling consistency. Lining up one shot is tough. Lining up one shot with two projectiles that are to impact in different areas is really tough...in real life.

In theory, they should be able to do it. Police fire how many rounds to qualify with a handgun and to maintain proficiency per year? How many shots do they take with Tasers? Just how proficient are most cops with Tasers? They put the dot on the chest or back and pull the trigger.

Quote:
Obviously, in a real defensive situation, you most likely won't have the luxury of doing the math before you fire , but the point is, it is possible.
Possible, sure, I get that. Likely when it counts n reality? Not really.
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Old September 3, 2010, 12:48 AM   #33
tgace
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Well I have seen officers cant the taser and strike two separate people fighting on the ground with individual probes and zap the two of them apart. Unlike most defensive shootings, taser deployment has more opportunity for a deliberate and well placed shot. Plus the laser helps with shot placement. Ill place my experience and what I have observed over some video of some anon "Lt" anyday.

As to quality control (and the snide comment about possible variations in effectiveness), I have no doubts that the quality is high, but all products have variation of some small degree across a production lot. And that doesnt take into consideration the wear and tear a plastic electronic item strapped to an officers leg goes through throughout its use span. We do a spark and battery test pre-deployment, but who is to say that physical factors couldnt play a role in the anecdotal "taser immunity" stories along with barb depth, dart dispersion and dart placement?

I still say that with a perfect hit with a perfect taser will provide a "lock up" 99%+ of the time.
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