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Old May 29, 1999, 07:05 PM   #1
Mikey
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Well, Rob made it to the Middle Tennessee Shooters Memorial Weekend IDPA Trophy Match today and got to participate in a real match (as opposed to the classifier). It will be interesting to hear what he thinks now that he's a winner!

In true "Rob-like" fashion, he promptly dispatched the BG's and won his class. He almost beat our local legend but had the good manners to throw a few shots and save that victory for another day.

We had six stages with various scenarios to solve using available cover and timely reloads. The targets ranged from plain cardboard and steel to hard cover and fully clothed. There was a back-up gun side match for those diminutive carry guns so many of us prefer.

Congratulations Rob on your first big win. The fellow you came so close to catching is a super Sharpshooter on the verge of shooting Expert. You did well indeed!

Mikey
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Old May 29, 1999, 09:09 PM   #2
Rob Pincus
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Mikey is so modest.. He failed to claim his own victory, placing second in his division in Custom Defensive Pistol (right, mikey ??),
and, His club hosted a great event.

I saw that the UNlimited vickers scoring method is MUCH more realistic than the other version used to score the qualifiers. Which leaves me with a dilema.. if I shoot the qualifiers and the matches in "Rob-like fashion" (ie- fast and furious).. I will continue to score low on the qualifiers, yet score very well (apparently) in the matches. Ie- I'll face serious charges of sandbagging....

Meanwhile, yes, I was edged out in the High Overall category by 1 damn second. I had 110.x and the HOA guy had 109.xx. I feel slightly vindicated in that I actually shot from concealment and had to draw from under a vest, that was the hadnicap I had I guess.. The local guru (a great shot named Tom Foster, BTW), shot from open carry.
I shot a Stock Glock 23 from a Blade Tech Belt holster. By far, custom (more or less) 1911s were the most popular gun, though I did see a good many Glocks, at least one Sig, and I think a Taurus.

But, my biggest regret was not that I choose to shoot from concealment, as I think that is in the spirit of IDPA, it was that I did not remove my sights before the match. AS you all know, I point shoot.. and I do it fast, maybe not the most accurate guy in the world, but I make up for it in volume of fire and I keep them on the silhouette (mostly ). In IDPA I learned quickly that it gives me a great advantage to be focusing entirely on the target.. I can see when I am not in the "A" zone and shoot pick up shots quickly.. other guys have to shift focus from their sights to the target to try to figure that out. Of course, one guy had to say "Well, you know you are really using your sights, but you don;t know it.."..... Next time, I'll shoot at least one division with a sightless gun, I promise.

The worst part of the day was really that I beat my Obi-Wan, the guy I've been training under and with for several years, who talked me into trying this out in the first place. Of course, he beat me in the Revolver competition, the old man can reload that wheelgun FAST!

So, yes, I think IDPA (with UNlimited vickers Scoring) is much more realistic than any other competition I have ever shot in. I am looking forward to future matches, especially at the Manchester Club, Mikey and his boys put on a great time.
I hope that other TFL members will join me at the Tennessee State Shot, which Mikey's Club is hosting, on October 16th.

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Old May 30, 1999, 09:55 PM   #3
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Congrats on a great match...but remember that there is no HOA category at an IDPA event. There are winners in each division (where like equipment compete with like) only.
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Old May 30, 1999, 10:24 PM   #4
Rob Pincus
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Well, there is Braggin rights. 'sides, If I keep shooting the qualifier in my preferred style, I'll be stuck in Marksman class forever and I prefer using a Stock gun.

A buddy and I shot revolvers and we were the only ones, but we still compared our revolver scores with everyone else's score to see where we stood, regardless of what they were using. We all have to go home at the end of the match, and the Bad Guys could visit ANYONE.. I haven't noticed that the smarter or more armed bad guys only go after the higher ranked shooters, or the guys with "better" guns.

If some guy has qualified as a master and is using a perfectly tuned and ported 1911 with precisely controlled, minimum recoil, handloads in Custom Defensive Pistol and he doesn't come out HOA, let alone loses to a guy with a stock pistol, I'd say he'd have some looking in the mirror to do. Unless he is just there for fun, in which case, I guess he'd leave his "1st place Master CDP" Trophy on the table at the end of the day, right?

(BTW- there was no Master shooter at the match, and I don't think there were any over-worked, ported 1911s, so that was completely hypothetical)



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Old May 31, 1999, 09:38 AM   #5
Mikey
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WOAH there Rob,

You're 'bout to go from preachin' to meddlin' with that custom 1911 talk!

First, ported barrels aren't allowed in IDPA but I'm a big fan of slicked-up 1911's. If the equipment could make the shooter we'd all be using them. But just 'cause I can't outshoot old Tom "full-auto" Foster and his "fantastic plastic", doesn't mean I should leave the trophy on the table!!

Hell yes, I'm there for the fun - you didn't have any?? When it quits being fun I'll be at home! Some days I can even outshoot higher ranking competitors but they can still win their class because I'm not there yet.

As for ranking, you can be moved up by winning a major match, like the national or state championships. You don't have to shoot another classifier. They move one shooter up for every ten in the class. That's how I became a sharpshooter - I took third in my class at the '98 Nationals and there were 32 shooters in the class, so the top three moved up.

You're a damn good shooter and deserve to be ranked Expert, at least. With a little IDPA specific experience you'll probably be a Master soon. Me...I've got a long way to go. I never even owned a semi-auto pistol until 1995 and never shot any defensive/combat style discipline until 1997. I had never even shot a revolver in double action before. All my experience had been in long range rifle and pistol. Come to think of it...I never used open sights until '95. I had scopes on everything I owned except shotguns.

I intend to continue using my perfectly tuned 1911 with precisely controlled, minimum recoil handloads no matter what class I'm in. And if I win I'll take my trophy home so I can prove to my wife that I really was at a pistol match!

See you at the Nationals and the State. That way you can move up twice this year.

Mikey
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Old May 31, 1999, 12:59 PM   #6
Rob Pincus
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Mikey,

Like I said, I din't see any guns like the one I described, nor any master shooters... I was trying to be hypothetical about it. You could throw "Custom Glock" in there just as easily, with a 3.5# connector, polished innards, and the same low-power relaods.

I wasn't targeting you or anyone else, just a theoretical "gamer".. truthfully, I had no idea you were using Reloads. Sorry .

I am just trying to figure this out. For the last few years all I have heard is "Oh, you gotta go shoot IDPA, it is the real deal...yadda yadda yadda...."

Now, I go try it out and, hell yeah it is fun, but it is also more game than I was lead to believe. I'm a training purist, while it is great that guys are getting out and doing this as opposed to standing in front of a target shooting at the X-ring all day, or shooting some other, less realistic, competition, I still am looking for that Holy Grail activity, that makes completely realistic training fun.

I know a lot of guys who carry customized 1911s,(don't tell anyone, but I carry my Caspian every now & then), but none of them carry more than one extra mag.
The only guys I know who carry openly are wearing duty belts and/or badges.

I watched you shoot a couple stages, and we aren't very far apart in skill. I'm the first to admit that the reason my score was so low is because of the way I shot the match, not any superior skill. As we discussed at your truck, I think the key in that Unlimited Vicker is the pick-up shots. That means focusing 100% attention on your target and being able to reload quickly if necessary. I happen to feel that those two things are also very important to real defensive shooting. If real BGs show up, no one is going to tell you "2 shots per target", and you're a lot more likely to fizte on them than you are your front sight.

Notice how far my score fell when I was using the revolver, and taking 4+ seconds to reload. Unless I was making up for 3 misses, it wasn't worth reloading with the revolver, consider that lesson learned. That is also the reason I don't carry a revolver, I am not nearly as capable to defend myself with one.

God knows I get preachy, and If I get active with TDPC, I'll not rest until they all at least shoot from concealment, but I'm not trying to denigrate anyone's style of shooting or choice of gear. I am having trouble with fitting some of it into the context of the "ethos". I think you referred to it as the "IDPA Creed" at the match. I don't know if such a thing exists, but I liked the way it sounded.

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited May 31, 1999).]
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Old May 31, 1999, 03:48 PM   #7
Mikey
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No offense taken - just more of my "tongue firmly in cheek" type of response.

There's a few things I dislike about IDPA too. Some have been corrected this year with rules changes and the addition of the BUG division. I, too, wish all shooting was from concealment. They did most stages that way at the Nationals but I'm just gamey enough to not do it if it's not required, especially in hot weather. I also like the targets concealed with clothing forcing mental focus on center mass hits.

I especially detest the so-called "tactical reload" as described by Ken Hackathorn and adopted by the IDPA board as "the way" to do a true tactical reload. I find very little tactical soundness in fumbling around with two magazines in one hand while supposedly under fire from BG's, trying to keep the mag well empty for the least amount of time. The pitfalls are plenty - dropping one or both mags, reinserting the partially used one (this happened twice in one match with two different shooters), spending too much time with your mind on the gun and not on the situation.

I also dislike the fact that the back-up gun (BUG) division limits the loaded condition to 5 rounds with no reloads allowed in any string of fire and always starting with the gun in hand or laying out (no draw from concealment or holster). Duh!

Your style of shooting did not go unnoticed, especially by me. The engagement of targets with extra rounds, at speed, will be part of my next outing until I can convince myself one way or the other about it's possible advantages. I especially liked its potential on hard cover targets.

The rules cut both ways...sometimes they allow things that are gamey to some but they can also restrict the free use of judgement on the shooter's part as to the best solution to a given problem. Slide lock vs tac load for example, ought to be at the shooters discretion, not part of the proceedure.

Just my opinion.

Good lively discussion you guys - keep 'em coming.

Mikey
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Old May 31, 1999, 04:04 PM   #8
Rob Pincus
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I agree with their definition and use of "tactical Reload" as being flawed. I would prefer the term "Slide Forward" reload or "topping off" be used in certain scenarios. In the ATM stage that you SOed, for example, Topping off made sense with a 1911, but might not have with a fully loaded Glock/Sig/Beretta. Shooting the stage "my way" with a 1911, would've meant firing 7-8 shots at the first three targets, dropping the mag, and throwing in a new one while moving on to the second shooting position.

The "save your partial mag" theory makes good sense in some scenarios, but to try to incorporate it in a scenario that brings you to the brink of slide lock anyway is not realistic. The vest I was wering, with the big loose pockets on the front, gave me a convenient place to stash that extra mag quickly. I was wondering, did you give the guys who dropped the mag on the ground and then picked it up before ending the stage a procedural, or is that acceptable under the rules ??

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Old May 31, 1999, 04:55 PM   #9
Mikey
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If the proceedure calls for a "tactical reload" or "reload with retention", the partial magazine must be retained in a pocket, waistband or mag pouch before engaging new targets.

If they dropped or ejected a mag on the ground, they had to retrieve and store it before continuing or get a procedural penalty. More than one shooter tried to simply retain the mag in their hand. That too gets a procedural.

As a heads-up, in the future we intend to design a stage that forces the re-use of the retained partial magazine. The thinking is...if you're gonna save it, might as well use it.

We already did one where we loaded a dummy in the competitors gun or mag to simulate a failure to fire clearing problem. That was interesting!

Mikey
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Old May 31, 1999, 11:15 PM   #10
Ankeny
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Way to go Rob. I have never fired an IDPA course but sure would like to try it. Bet it ain't PPC. Good shooting and keep up the good work.

[This message has been edited by Ankeny (edited June 01, 1999).]
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Old June 1, 1999, 10:02 AM   #11
Rob Pincus
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Thanks, Ankeny.

For the record, I LOVE the idea of the dummy round.

I also like the idea of re-using the mag, EXCEPT that it means limiting the number of initial shots (so that you are sure the shoter HAS rounds left int he "partial" mag), and that seems a little too choreographed.

Personally, I think drpping the mag on the ground and then picking it up goes against the spirit of the "reload with retention", I'd say that if it is going to be used, people should practice to do them properly, either removing the mag and sotring it before getting the new one, or (better but more difficult), getting the new one out first, and using one hand to catch the old mag and slam the new one home, Then sotring the extra mag. To me, if the mag hits the ground, Instant procedural...

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Old June 10, 1999, 04:46 PM   #12
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Hi all. Just some observations from an interloper (from GlockTalk).

Rob: i'd love to see your point shooting in action, but I don't think I'll adopt it. At my home IDPA club, we usually have a stage or two which includes targets at between 15 and 25 yards. Try that without sights, I say! I will also tell you that the top shooter at "my" range, Mike Dalton (Calif CDP master-class champion last year, Steel challenge winner, and former IPSC hotshot), doesn't point shoot, and he is SHOCKINGLY fast and accurate. Rare is the target he doesn't clean. I'll stick to my sights, thank you, and try to get occasionally as fast as Mike.

re: Gaming... It seems like the only way the IDPA board could eliminate this entirely would be with a set of highly restrictive rules on equipment. I personally am not interested in that,even though I don't game it. I shoot SSP right now, with my G22 and factory .40 full-power loads. If I wanted the ultimate advantage, I could shoot 9mm and a G34, (or download my .40 loads). It's not what I would choose to carry though, so I don't. I just have to know and feel ok that if I get beaten by a slim margin by a 9mm shooter, I'm probably the better shooter. I am going to level the field a little with my new 1911... everyone in CDP is shooting the same caliber mostly (.45), and presumably they meet the minimum PF. We do have some guys shooting ESP, using very downloaded .40, but unless you use that for carry, it defeats the spirit of IDPA to me. Doesn't seem to bother them a bit! And they win all the time. Oh well.

re: shooting from concealment... My club always has at least one or two stages in each match where concealment is mandatory. We even had one stage recently where you shot three identical strings: 1st from low-ready; 2nd from the holster unconcealed; and 3rd from concealment. That was very instructive, to see how much each one slowed you down.

PS: re- rob's comment: "I won't be happy until I find a competition that appreciates the tactical philosophy of "If all the shots are in the X-Ring, you are shooting too slow"."...
Interesting point, but I have a theory. If you can clean most targets in a match fast enough to win or place, you give yourself this advantage: In a real-life shootout, due to the stress involved, you undoubtedly will shoot LESS accurately. You might then be putting all your shots in the -1 zone, rather than -0. Still very acceptable. If you are a fast and furious match shooter, though, and shoot for less than clean scores for the sake of speed, your shots will too suffer in a real-life shootout. Only then, your shots have gone from the -1 zone to the -3 zone, or even worse--misses. Now you are potentially in real trouble. To my mind, you should improve your accuracy first, and then your speed. You can't miss fast enough to win! IMHO
Just some observations from a lurker,. cheers

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited June 10, 1999).]
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Old June 24, 1999, 09:58 AM   #13
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Watched my first IDPA match a couple of weeks ago, looks like fun and may have to try it, reminds me of the older Classifiers that USPSA shot, got a H&K USP that doesn't see much range time any more and might just have to clean the cobwebs off it and see if I can find that holster I put away, wife wants to shoot it too, may never get away from the reloader now. :-)
In reply to Rob's (?) comment on "if they're
all in the Bullseye your shooting to slow" I had heard that if you shoot a 3" group your to slow and if its a 5" group your shooting to fast, heard this from a Master USPSA shooter and it seems to make sense to me.
Nice to hear you IDPA guys can't agree also. :-))) A USPSA shooter who just likes to shoot anything he can. Bear
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Old June 28, 1999, 02:06 PM   #14
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...from concealment....

Interesting point. Before I started, I went to the main site to read the rules. Looked like concealment was a requirement there. Took my jacket to my first match. Nobody was shooting from concealment. ????? Oh well.. when in Rome... A few matches later a stage was set up requireing concealment. You should have heard the complaining. sheesh. The Republic of Texas Championships will shoot ALL stages from concealment. A couple of members were overheard this past weekend to say they would have to go buy a vest or light weight jacket for that match. Now, it is hot doww here in these Texas summers. And I don't mind at all not having to wear a vest in 95 degree heat with 75% humidity.. But I do firmly believe the course of fire should focus on shooting from concealment whenever possible. In many cases today, I still shoot and practice from concealment. Cuz thats the way I will have to shoot if ever a "real world" reason to shoot happens.



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It is long been a principal of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully. - Jeff Cooper

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Old June 28, 1999, 03:05 PM   #15
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On concealment,

At our club we have instituted all shooting will be from concealment from here on out. We also put shirts on the targets when pratical(like when we have enough shirts to go around).

I think this is the way to go. Besides, I live in Tennessee and grew up in south Florida, 95F and 75% humidity is normal isn't it?

johnboy IDPA#A02199
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Old June 29, 1999, 12:37 AM   #16
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I just shot my first IDPA match and haven't even shot a qualifier, so I know little or nothing about it, but it is apparent to me that if I want to use it as a 'perfect' vehicle to train for my CCW then I can carry the same gun in the same holster with the same cover garments and have a ball. Like I posted on the prior subject, I am 65 and not going to win anything anyway, but I can have a great time and get some relevant training so why not relax and enjoy? Gamers will always be gamers. Jim
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