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Old February 22, 1999, 06:20 PM   #26
thaddeus
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Ah, okay, motorep, you have told me where NOT to go, now how about telling me where TO go?

Hopefully without spending a fortune.

thanks,
thad
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Old February 22, 1999, 07:15 PM   #27
motorep
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For hardcore training - Gunsite, Marines, Army. For a good time call....no, for a good time shooting, making some new friends who like to shoot, the opportunity to run and shoot as fast as you can, by all means go shoot IPSC matches. My point is, I guess, tha t when you put in rules,classes for different guns and abilities, and give prizes, you've got a game, regardless of the name.
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Old February 22, 1999, 09:02 PM   #28
Cat
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motorep,
You're right. Unfortunately the alternative is all out combat.
There is/was a group on the east coast I believe called "Practical Defense Challenge"
at: <http://www.greent.com/pdc/>
Check it out. Looks real interesting. There was talk about entering the shooting area blindfolded, and at the "Go" dispose of targets as you wish. You solve the problem presented to you. Critique afterward. They had their first match already.
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Old February 22, 1999, 09:05 PM   #29
Cat
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I seem to be having trouble getting the addresses in these messages. Once more:

http://www.greent.com/pdc/
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Old February 23, 1999, 12:24 AM   #30
thaddeus
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Actually, I already shoot regularly out in the desert with like-minded friends and we make up our own drills. I was hoping to test my skills against some other shooters to see if I am as good as I think I have become

In regards to the military, you have got to be kidding. You mean the guys that put a couple dozen rounds through an AR once a year to qualify? Serious defensive handgun training in the military? No such thing in the far majority of units. Civilians with any inkling of shooting skills and training generally out shoot the far majority of Police and Military units, unless you are talking about the supreme elite, and heck, I shoot with some of them men-o-warsmen and they are good, but a little civilian training gets the same effect, unless you want to learn how to blow stuff up

thads
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Old February 23, 1999, 12:58 AM   #31
Clay Whitehead
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I look at matches, IDPA or whatever as a chance to test myself. Part of whether the test is valid is if you did anything that could get you injured in an actual confrontation. So far, nobody has mentioned use of cover and putting distance between yourself and your assailants. IDPA does some of that, but if Thaddeus's group is testing each other that way, he'll come out ahead of what happens in IDPA and way ahead of IPSC.

The notion of reloading in the open and looking for a box to stand in all the time could get you hurt. This isn't a flame on IPSC, but if you practice a particular set of motions enough, that's what you'll do when the manure hits the rotating ventilator.

Going back to the beginning of this thread, we haven't discussed the order that you would use to tag the 4 thugs in HS's scenario or whether you would duck behind one of those nice concrete pillars that are in parking garages. With that many BG's, one shot apiece and some fancy footwork until you can reasses would probably save your bacon.

The biggest problem about practicing this type of scenario or using it in a match is the lack of realistic moving targets to simulate the 4 directions those BG's are going to take when they see you have your PDW (Personal Defense Weapon). Do they all need to be tagged or are some going to turn and run (prudent response to a legally armed citizen), allowing you to go about your business. Remember, 99.99999% of life is going to be "no-shoot" situations.

Thats my $.035 worth.

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Old February 23, 1999, 09:44 PM   #32
El Chimango Pete
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Was with the first IPSC shooters in Buenos Aires, starting the sport 15 years ago (?). It was still very much as Jeff Cooper and co. had designed it - courses were even designed to allow pistol and revolver to compete together (our runner up champ was shot a S&W 357) very little was custom on the guns - grips, sights, some tuning. The second or third year in we decided to run a series of matches with LEO's and guys from the armed services (army, marines, coast guard even the prison guard services) - I recall one of the range officers shaken and pale coming in from an event: "jeez, the safest place is in front of the targets" - No fault of theirs: wearing a uniform, especially a LEO, was (still is) one of the lowest paying jobs in this country; the keen shooters would 'trade favors' among their colleagues to extend their miserable allotment of practice ammo.
Certainly, under these circumstances, a civilian with a good income would have a substantial edge over most in a confrontation. Those LEOs that participated, in turn, were way ahead of their buddies that didn't.
Now, with space guns and the sport so stylized (didn' Col. Cooper and Mr. Alexacos have an argument about that? The IPSC prez Alexacos said i think something to the effect that it had to be, to be 'politically correct' for an international sport) I'm not so sure there would be such an edge.
A disadvantage, sometimes, 'double tapping' but a gain in 'target acquisition' sure...
The compromise with IDPA sounds best.

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On ICQ "Buzzard-Pete"


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Old March 2, 1999, 07:47 PM   #33
KyTac
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The original question was, would shooting IPSC help in dealingl w/ multiple targets ?

Yes, it would.

IPSC started in 1976, when a GREAT run on the "El Presidente" course of fire was 10 seconds.....Now, it's under four seconds.

(the "El Prez" has 3 targets 10 yds downrange, 1 yd apart. Shooter starts w/ back towards targets, wrists above shoulders. At signal, he turns, draws, shoots each one twice, reloads, and shoots each one twice again. 12 shots w/ one reload.)

IPSC is like a smorgasbord.....take what you want, leave what you don't.

If you object to the Open Race Guns or holsters, then don't use them ! Use what makes sense for YOU !

If you're shooting on your own or w/ buddies, do you use a timer ? Do you know how fast you REALLY are ?

A rule of thumb tto know when you're "pretty good" is when you can draw and fire two shots on a 7 yd target in 1.5 seconds......but without a shot timer, you'll never know. A stopwatch is a good GUESS, but that's all it is.

IDPA has many good things going for it, but it FORCES you to shoot it "their" way, and that's not always the right way. You MUST load from slide-lock, unless REQUIRED to do a "tactical reload."

Too many courses of fire in IDPA do NOT allow you to make up a shot you know missed....and that is street relevant how ?

Don't get me wrong, I shoot both and will continue to do so, as EACH has their place.

IPSC will optimize your speed and gunhandling skills, while IDPA emphasizes accuracy......both are GOOD things, are they not ?



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Old March 2, 1999, 08:04 PM   #34
Dorsai
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This has been a fun thread to read. Here's my experience. IPSC, IDPA, all of it can be a lot of fun, competition & training. You have to decide what you want to get out of it. I've shot IPSC off and on since '81. I could never afford a race gun or race holsters. I mostly used a Browning HP, M1911 or Glock 19. I did shoot one match with a Walther PP in .32acp. Most of the time, I approached it as training, not competition. I shot the best I could, but winning wasn't my goal. Shooting my best was the goal. My score with the Walther didn't count, but I got valuable experience in how well I could shoot with it under some kind of stress. For a while, I even shot all head shots. I was slower than the race guns, but I did pretty good and by the end of the match, my head shots weren't a lot slower than going center of mass. One more story. I lost the front sight on my Glock about 1/2 way through one end-of-season super-duper match. I kept shooting and made it about 1/2 way through the man-on-man round robin before I was eliminated. The point was, I found out that in an emergency, I could point shoot pretty good.

IPSC is a game that has gotten a long way from the "practical" sport it started out to be. A $5k race/space gun light years away from a fixed sight, un-comped whatever. But I've seen Leatham and others shoot a single stack .45 match and they would kick my butt for sure!! Their tactics may not be all an expert would want, but they could double tap your 4 guys in the parking garage in about 2 sec at most, from the holster. Bottom line, it is as unrealistic as your competitive sense will allow. If all you want is to win the game, you'll use a game gun, game gear and game tactics. But...you can use your real gun, real gear and real tactics and still enjoy it.

------------------
Dorsai
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal
weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the
monarch of all he surveys.
-- Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
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Old March 20, 1999, 09:33 AM   #35
RJ in Rome NY
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After reading all the comments on IPSC awarding for speed , etc...
Makes me wonder.. is there or maybe there
should be an organization who's course of fire would involve scenarios.. To test our mental
/ reasoning skills along with our response times, etc... I guess the response time
really would be this . " Did I just die in this scenario"? if so then your time was up..
( pun intended )

Hmmm I wonder if we could take it even further.. multiple targets that move ...
cars on rails... ( almost sounds like an amusement park here ) but I guess you can
only get so practical on a course and still
make it practical to "setup" the course also..

Please no flames.. Just some food for thought..

Whats this STC I have been hearing about here??


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Old March 20, 1999, 10:10 PM   #36
HS
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Actually, if they wanted to make either sport more realistic a controled paint ball gun on each bad guy target that shoots the "player" would sort out who is tactically correct & who isn't!

Could call it I.S.T.A. "International Surviving The competition Association" .... grin

Clean undies (as prizes) to anyone who doesn't get shot !

ROFLMAO !

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Old March 21, 1999, 02:21 AM   #37
Ken Cook
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Laugh if you like, but those paintballs HURT! Good incentive to learn cover and concealment. You just have to remember that cover against paintballs (a nice big bush) is NOT the same as cover against gunfire. Paintball is also incredibly FUN!

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Old March 22, 1999, 10:18 PM   #38
Bill Fitzgerald
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HS,

The answer to your question is:

Yes, your IPSC experience will help. Unfortunately, against 4 BG's you are going to get shot. No matter how fast you can shoot, or how fast you can transition from target to target.

A better alternative would be to un-ass the area. Find cover. Do what you can to not get shot.

4 against 1 is a losing proposition.

KyTac,

IDPA does not 'require' slide-lock reloads. If the MD says it does, then (s)he is interpreting a rule incorrectly. Also, the only way you can be prevented from making up a shot is if the COF uses Limited Vickers. If the COF is regular Vickers, then feel free to shoot as many shots as you want.
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Old March 23, 1999, 09:00 AM   #39
HS
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I knew it was a bad scenario, but most of our rapid fire runs are with 4 targets.

Like tonight I shot 3.78 secs with my box stock P-16.

Thought that any edge is at least an edge.

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Old March 24, 1999, 05:33 PM   #40
DblTap
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HS,

Nice run.

As for cover and shooting positions in IPSC, yes we do have that. There are "classifier" stages that are published with exact dimensions and target locations so that every club sets them up the same. Some involve what is commonly referred to as a Bianchi barricade.

We had a stage that was used as a classifier with three targets (back two 12 feet apart, front one in the middle about 4 feet forward). The center target has two No-Shoots on it about half way up. Had to crouch under a bar behind the barricade to put 1 round on each target and then change positions and put one round on each target again. Do same again from opposite side and then a third string where you put two rounds on each, reload and change position and two rounds on each again.

We shot the classifier and then set up a box right in front of the barricade. Since we were indoors and wanted a high round count match, we "re-used" the same target setup, but with a different stage description. It went something like "Engage T1 with 6 rounds, perform a mandatory reload, engage T2 with six rounds, perform a mandatory reload and engage T3 with 6 rounds". 18 rounds total with 2 reloads. This tested reloading ability and shot to shot recovery.

My time was 7.88 seconds, down 2 points with the Open gun. The results aren't out yet, but I think I won that stage. <big grin>

Is this real life. No, it's a game. Do I think it helped my ability to shoot my defensive gun? Absolutely.

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Old March 25, 1999, 06:39 AM   #41
HS
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DblTap, that was a good stage you posted. Going to suggest it for our next shoot !

Hope you did win it !

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[This message has been edited by HS (edited March 25, 1999).]
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