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Old January 8, 1999, 07:54 AM   #1
HS
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Hope I don't get flamed too badly on this but what are your thoughts on IPSC shhooters having a slight edge on other shooters in a multiple assailant scenario ?

Picture this - underground parking garage, 2 exits (ramp 1 in/out & doorway to building)....you get out of car & 4 b/g's with less than nice intentions close in on you. Situation develops were you HAVE to pull your gun & shoot.

My point now is that with your IPSC training behind you, the chances of putting 2 shots into the A zone of each aggressor would have to be better than the average range shooter who plinks at targets once every 3 months ?....I know it's not "Gunsite" training or anything but IMHO it would give an edge nonetheless.

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Old January 8, 1999, 10:33 AM   #2
Rob Pincus
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anyone who practices a scenario is going to have a better chance of surviving that scenario in the real world.

My only problem with some IPSC competitors is that they are using ridiculous holsters and finnicky guns and silly optics. That is why I don't compete IPSC anymore.. I just got sick of it getting less and less practical.
Please don't flame me I have nothing against people who want to compete with that gear, I use some of it in STC competitions, I just wish they wouldn't continue to call it practical.

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Old January 8, 1999, 10:42 AM   #3
4V50 Gary
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Guderian said, "Weapons affect tactics."

IPSC can give one the shooting skill to survive a nasty encounter like one you described. Indeed, I'll contend that a hypothetical IPSC competitor can outshoot an average LEO or casual plinker for the simple reason that most enthusiastic shooters practice more regularly than most LEOs or casual plinkers.

However, I also humbly submit that "practical" is no longer part of IPSC and since IPSC awards for speed rather than tactics, a shooter may be preconditioning him/herself with tactics which are impractical in a real life gunfight. Double taps are nice, but it may be wiser to put one into each assailant than wait for #3 or #4 to put one into you. I think that happened to a LEO who was an IPSC shooter.

Given the time and choice, I'd rather go with IDPA (if I got that right) which requires normal duty gear and gun over the race gear and gun of IPSC. Mindset is important and it behooves the IPSC shooter (or any other target shooter) to distinguish between the safety of a range environment and actual encounters on the street; and in doing so, select firearms and tactics which are appropriate for unsocial encounters.

Weapons affects tactics and are ammo sensitive high maintenance raceguns appropriate for self defense? I think not.

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Old January 8, 1999, 08:27 PM   #4
Art Eatman
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I'm a life member of USPSA/IPSC, but lost interest as the "gamey" aspects took over. I hope to find a place to shoot, here around Thomasville, as there are some local guys interested in IDPA.

It's not so much that the shooting is different, as the gear is different. And, probably, the mindset.

Even the Steel Challenge top-guns, with not only the race-guns but pipsqueak ammo, are gonna do well in ANY scenario, so long as their minds are set...I strongly believe that a mix of regular practice, and "self-psyching" about the "what if?" of situations are very damned important.

I certainly wouldn't carry a race gun, but "racing" is still shooting.

Helluva note. Nobody to argue with...Why'd I post this?
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Old January 8, 1999, 10:52 PM   #5
Michael Carlin
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A while back someone derided the value of competition with a sarcastic reference to the
"crucible of competition - puhleezez!"

There is no doubt in my mind, after 27 years in the Army, competing in both full contact and light contact karate, shooting: bullseye pistol, USPSA-IPSC, bowling pins, high power rifle, international combat rifle pistol and machingun for the USAR, that anyone who shoots/trains regularly lives in a different plane from the sedentary masses.

I do not dispute that there are some bad habits to be avoided in USPSA/IPSC, but training to shoot fast and accurately with a real gun (as opposed to the UIT Rapid Fire Pistol) will improve the odds of success.

Enthusiasts who are shooting on their own generally have a level of commitment and thus proficiency that I am inclined to believe in.

Everbody has heard about the black belt who got his ass kicked by the local bad ass, but how many of you have actually seen it? Not many I will bet. I am betting on the competitor usually.

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Old January 9, 1999, 12:05 AM   #6
Rob Pincus
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I saw it. Typical TKD American pay-your-way Dojo. (No offense to any TKD practitioners, I've just seen this alot....)..

21 year old kid, always wearing the chinese dragon satin jackets with his patches and crap.. he went to a civilian school near my college. His mother was an instructor at the dojo. He got his black belt when he was 20, he got his a** handed to him when he had mouthed off one too many times about being a black belt.
Granted, there was no real justification for the guy to smash him, but he really had it coming to him.
He stopped wearing the jackets and patches and crap after that, I noticed.

That is an extreme story of blatant stupidity. It is ashame, because everytime I hear that someone is a blackbelt, especially in some of the more "popular" arts, I really have to say "So What?" in my head.

Kinda like I used to think (and many people do think) that LEOs were all capable of using a handgun to defend themselves and were automatically knowledgeable about things "tactical."

I have to say that my cynicism goes for competitors, too. Like I said originally, any practice is better than no practice, but a competition hero might not make it the first time he has to draw from concealment. (a few competitions excepted, obviously)

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Old January 9, 1999, 02:16 AM   #7
HS
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Remember The Karate Kid, when he asks "what kind of belt do you have ?" the reply was "rope..why do you ask ?".

IMHO that is ONE of the best movie lines EVER ! </p>
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Old January 9, 1999, 02:47 AM   #8
Rob Pincus
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I thought it was "JC Penny" .. but either way it was a classic line...
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Old January 9, 1999, 03:17 AM   #9
HS
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New record !!..No flames about IPSC & real world shooting !... my, my I am suprised !...grin Thought I worded my scenario correctly !
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Old January 9, 1999, 12:11 PM   #10
bear
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As a USPSA shooter I agree that the open class shooters would be a bit hard press to use their rigs for carry, LEO or whatever,
Limited would be much closer to this, I do think if you look at open shooting as a sport
it makes it alot more easy to deal with.
This wasn't the original intent, but times change, look at stock car racing, you figure you could buy Dale Ernharts car down at your local car dealer???
Right or wrong?? who knows, I'm enjoying it,
Cooper might be whinning about it but there's always IDPA, different strokes for different folks.
I would think any of these sports should only may you better with a gun, enjoy what you will.
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Old January 9, 1999, 01:03 PM   #11
Mikey
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Haven't tried IPSC yet...sure do want to. I've been shooting IDPA for two years and it's a blast. I'm sure nothing in the competitive world can really prepare you for a real world shoot-em-up. I wonder if the premium training sites can really do much more unless they actually shoot back at you.

I think Cooper coined the phrase "a pox on plinking" saying that shooting without purpose is not practice and builds bad habits. I think I agree, but EVERY shot fired WITH purpose helps you become a better shooter and that HAS to give you some edge over the one who is not.

If you want to find out if you can draw from concealment with your carry rig and put center hits on multiple targets (sometimes covered with shirts), using available cover, with an emphasis on accuracy and current thinking in tactical theory, then IDPA will test your metal. It's still just a game...but so is anything short of a real life and death encounter.
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Old January 12, 1999, 10:29 AM   #12
The Scandinavian
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At my local IPSC club "raceguns" are very much the exception rather than the norm. Most folks use 1911's with iron sights, stock G17's seem to be popular, and I shoot an USP9F with fixed sights. One or two use the "race" holsters but there's no rule that says you have to use racy gear. The Limited class is still alive and well here anyway!
Cheers for now <font color=red>T.S.</font>
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Old January 22, 1999, 11:21 AM   #13
DblTap
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I have shot IPSC for six years and have really enjoyed the sport and the friendly people. They have taught me a lot. I started with an out-of-the-box Beretta, but made the decision to build an open gun. Would I carry my racegun, NO!! It would take too long to unlock the holster and turn on the dot sight. I'd be suffering from some serious lead poisoning before all that happened! As for "practical", in open division it has turned into a game, but it's a game that helps me shoot better. Some of the "limited" class guys kick my butt in every match, using 8 round stock 1911's. It boils down to ability and how much you have practiced.

My carry gun is a Glock 30 with ten rounds of Speer Gold Dot 230 grain with no modifications made to the firearm. Don't need a lawyer calling it a "modified killing machine" with a "hair" trigger.

My advice, find a game you like (IPSC, IDPA, Bullseye or whatever) and play it!

[This message has been edited by DblTap (edited 01-22-99).]

[This message has been edited by DblTap (edited 01-22-99).]
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Old January 22, 1999, 11:30 AM   #14
Rich Lucibella
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Welcome to The Firing Line Mr. Tap. It's good to hacve more competitors dropping by.
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Old January 22, 1999, 09:58 PM   #15
ranger
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non-shooters are abundant in our society.
Havind retired from LE I know LEO's are also
in that category.If I can put four rounds on three targets in three seconds or less, I
feel I stand a chance with four BG's.No
practicee, no hittee.As you train so shall you perform when you get in combat.Must be
something to it,I'm still here after 26 years
on the road.bud

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Old January 23, 1999, 07:36 AM   #16
Ray VanderLinden
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HS, you still trying to get someone going?
Ranger said it all. Most LEO's think once a year and 50 rounds is good enough (wrong). I ought to know I have to train them. They also want good weather. Almost any person who likes to shoot is better off. Competitors included.
First rule to remember is you can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight.
The Second is as you practice so will you fight.
My club broke away from IPSC years ago. It became a Cross between IPSC and IDPA, Comps are allowed but no optics. It's a good mix but still not perfect.
Mind set is what gets most good shooter or (TKD) in trouble. On the street forget the rules. The only real rule is....."I will survive!"

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Old January 23, 1999, 08:33 AM   #17
HS
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Wasn't particulary trying to get someone going...grin but trying to see if there were any VALID reasons against IPSC. If Aussie LEOs saw how we shoot at club level they too might think "hmm...better join a club and LEARN to shoot !"

Still have a real hard time trying to understand the concept of someone who has to carry a gun but DECIDES not to be proficient with it !....I know I'm verging on the Soapbox here but sheesh....these people are paid to protect us & they ARE more likely to be in a "situation" more than other folks AND 90% of private gun owners could outshoot them on a Bad day !!

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"The Gun from Down Under !"

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Old February 3, 1999, 05:23 AM   #18
Gattling
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I'd allso like to state that set of mind is essential in crisis survival. It really doesn't matter if U got the hottest gun in the world and draw in .50sec if yer "danger sense" is nill and U don't know when to draw or elbow someones jaw and run.

Closest to real fight one can get is simunitions FX ammo that launches those neat paint balls from real guns that hurt too, haven't heard yet that any party would actually compete with such. Might be interesting for those IDPA types to organise "deathmatch" with such, since they so dearly love realism.

TKD and points karate should imho been viewed like the open class, a recreative sport and friendly contest of shared skills.
Modern forms include elements that fullfill the expectations of nowadays practitioners more than more arcane forms.

I don't see much point in such that should the poor TKD dude been reacting like say old timer SE-asian trained fighter and pulled couple of blades facing outnumbering assailants, cut and stapped 'em and ended up in pen for multiple attemps of manslaughter.

For example I don't have any interest, despite practising Myau Thai and Kali, to participate in pre colonialistic era style matches, whereas on mutual agreement competitors glued broken glass to the cloth strips that acted as gloves, in order to make the "tournaments" swifter. Or Kali "patayan" (~"deatmatch") whereas edged sticks were used so that sticks or the hands of the opponents would break faster and match would thus be over faster.

Despite it's potential unrelism sports karate might teach it's practitioners to be hit at and ipsc (any division) it's to shoot
straight and fast, virtues that propably won't hurt in agressive confrontration.

Actually constant practise of about anythang will enhance ones selfdicipline and thus decrease the time that takes to "get grip of oneself" once a fight breaks up.

I think common sense should be practised in endless yarn for "combative realism" and recreational practising of armed fight wether it be with firearms or other weapons.

Thats mah 2cents worth.

Gatt.

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Old February 20, 1999, 07:56 AM   #19
thaddeus
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I don't know much about IPSC, but I saw an ad featuring a shooter in it (ad for Para-Ord) where the guy looks like Han Solo with a Star Wars laser blaster on his belt in this huge holster-thing. That really turned me off, and I was cheering when I saw an article for IDPA, because it sounds like a Godsend to real world shooters of today.
I would love to go to some IDPA meetings and find out what it is about and how to compete. I would also like to find out what they have learned, because I bet that that kind of competition really dispells myths about some conceal-carry rigs and their practicality under use.

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Old February 20, 1999, 08:22 AM   #20
HS
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Thaddeus, the Han Solo guys are in OPEN Class. I shoot a stock Para P-16 in IPSC & have loads of fun !

You don't need a $3000 gun to compete - just one that goes bang every time ! { )

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Old February 20, 1999, 02:44 PM   #21
Cat
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thaddeus,
There are 10 IDPA clubs in California. The website for IDPA is <http://www.idpa.com/>. Check it out. Contact a club near you and go to one of their matches. Explain that you are new (everyone was once) and I'll bet they knock themselves out helping you become a regular.
Every USPSA or IDPA club I've ever shot at was helpful. 99% of the shooters will treat you right. I hate to admit it but sometimes there will be a snob looking down their nose at lesser experienced shooters, but they are really few and far between.
Get going and have a bal!
Cat
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Old February 20, 1999, 06:01 PM   #22
thaddeus
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Thanks Cat, and could you repost that IDPA web address?

HS - I guess there are different IPSC classes then, and some more realistic than others. I will remain open minded. I have always been a hard core street-survivalist and anything that steps away from realistic training leaves me nausious. It sounds like, just as with martial arts, there are some hard core people in all schools, you just have to find the right group.

thaddeus
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Old February 21, 1999, 12:07 AM   #23
WESHOOT2
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Any shooting is better than no shooting. More shooting is better than less shooting. So shoot more.
Trite but true.
DVC
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Old February 21, 1999, 01:36 AM   #24
Cat
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thaddeus,
IDPA website address:
http://www.idpa.com/
Good Luck.
Cat
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Old February 21, 1999, 08:54 AM   #25
motorep
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Thaddeus- if you're looking for hardcore training IPSC and IDPA are not where you want to go- they're games, that's all. They can/will help maintain your level of proficiency with a handgun but they're still just games.
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