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Old August 4, 2010, 01:43 PM   #1
TylerD45ACP
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Hit, but not out of the firefight-What Happens

I just wanted to start a thread regarding this subject because I think it would be interesting. The human body is an amazing machine able to take a lot of punishment especially with adrenaline surging. I was wondering if any former LEO/civilian SD shooters wanted to share a story. I would like to hear about any instances of you maybe getting hit but continuing to fight the BG. Or a story about a BG who was hit but not out of the fight, and what you did. Thank you for those who do, and those who don't I perfectly understand why. This thread is for me to understand the right mindset to survive even after injury.

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Old August 4, 2010, 01:55 PM   #2
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Because we watch movies all the time many of us have come to believe that if you are shot you fall and die in an instant. The truth is that you can be shot in the heart and still go for about a minute. Its not until your brain shuts off that you are truely out of the fight. (though pain may make you want to stop) I personally have never been shot but one of my coworkers has been shot on two different occasions. Both times he didn't know he had been shot until someone showed him the wound. Both times he finished the fight. One badguy lived the other died. The one that died had been shot 4 times and was still fighting until he finally took one last bullet to the back of the head.

This is kind of off topic, but the second time he was shot it was by another cop which is why he didn't know he had been hit because he knew the badguy had only shot once and it hit the other cop. Its also why the badguy had only been hit 4 times instead of 7. One other cop took a bullet from friendly fire as well.

The first time he had been shot both he and the badguy were shot and both survived. He says the badguy didn't even act hurt even though he had a 45 slug in his guts.
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Old August 4, 2010, 02:10 PM   #3
TylerD45ACP
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Thank you that was an excellent post and look forward to more like it. That is what I figured. It looks like people can take a lot more punishment from firearms than most believe. I thought this was the case ever since I read Dr. Andersons book about the 1986 FBI Miami firefight. People seem to believe your chest explodes like in movies when you get shot (the force going the opposite direction too ). I doubt much of anything would happen if you got solid chest hits on someone, maybe their shirt would move. Then after there would be a lot of bleeding, but I seriously doubt it does anything like exploding.
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Old August 4, 2010, 02:22 PM   #4
DanThaMan1776
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I have never been shot/ shot someone. And i'm a physics major.. but one of my passions is biology and I am well aware of what it takes to kill a person.

I used to shadow a neuro surgeon and went under the knife myself for an extremely extensive surgery. The human body is the biological abrams tank

I'd say that the key to defending one's self is taking cover and getting away from the threat.. not stopping it. If I am ever assaulted or deem it necessary to use lethal force I will shoot and run as fast as I can to cover to keep shooting or continue retreat. That's assuming I am not protecting anyone else from life threatening situation.

Same with my house. Since I don't live with family or have a family, I'd just grab a gun and sneak out my window if there was someone in my house... while calling the police on the outside.
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Old August 4, 2010, 02:58 PM   #5
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Agree 100% Dan with going for cover as fast as your body will allow. I would be returning fire/ doing whats necessary in the situation. I would also try and retreat and call police if possible, 6 people clearing a house is better than 1.(In the sneaking out your window situation you mentioned)
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Old August 4, 2010, 06:52 PM   #6
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A friend of our family in the navy has been shot in the shoulder and not noticed. A close friend of his was hit and killed. He was trying to get him out of the line of fire and ot shot in the process. but didn't notice till they were "safe".

"quote: The human body is like an abram tank" its true this quote. The body has adapted and grow to be a functioning piece of pure awesomeness.

We have in our body called a thing called the sympathetic nervous system which prepares the body for either a flight or fight response. which kicks in as we are being attacked or startled. It mainly kicks in when your in a situation of "high alert". The adrenile start flowing and it either gives you the "extra" energy to either run or fight. By doing this it takes the blood from "non" vital areas. By ths i don't mean like arms or legs. It all depends on what the situation is.

Anyway enough of that crap. ha, the human body is amazing.

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Old August 4, 2010, 07:06 PM   #7
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I agree about the abrahms tank as well. Some people think that BG's are just going to drop, I'm expecting them to keep going. It seems in the heat of battle people don't feel shots because of the rush. I mean the adrenaline must be insane when bullets are flying. The pain would come probably after your friend got out. I am sorry his friend got killed, I respect him greatly.
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Old August 4, 2010, 08:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Because we watch movies all the time many of us have come to believe that if you are shot you fall and die in an instant.
Although that is a factor there's more to it than that. People before the invention of TV and movies weren't unstoppable threats who took numerous rounds before going down. Maybe it's more common now but back when guns were first introduced and were just single shot and slow to reload they were still effective enough. I'm not sure the exact reasoning maybe it's from the pain or the shock of being shot but through most of history people who were shot would stop fighting not keep going on till the last breath.
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Old August 4, 2010, 08:11 PM   #9
TylerD45ACP
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Thats is psychological I think. Like "O Im shot I dont want to die if I fall I will stop getting shot". Some people don't though, thats the mental state I try to believe in. If I get hit and am not unable to move I will continue fighting.

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Old August 6, 2010, 12:57 AM   #10
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There is a good video(well not so good) of a shooting in a train station in Mexico, a bad guy was shooting at a cop, and then at some other civilians that tried to help...he shot the cop numerous times at close range, and the cop still got up and ran away at fist like nothing happened...only to fall dead a few yards away...and the guy who tried to help, was shot I dont know how may times at close rangs and kept fighting for a while...one shot can do the job, or many can have little effect....pretty scary if you think about it....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0mCjEvDORE
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Old August 6, 2010, 06:54 AM   #11
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one of the infantry guys that were supporting us in iraq took an ak round thru the left thigh.

he had just thought it was a piece of brass or something that hit him, as it didn't hurt.

he continued on the mission for almost 40 mins till somebody else noticed he was bleeding.
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Old August 6, 2010, 12:54 PM   #12
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Crazy. I think I have seen some of that video before on TV or something. The guy just keeps coming at him, I wonder how many times he was hit. I saw what you mean about the cop too. Upon original shots he just sprints away, then is dead, almost like a deer. It is kind of creepy, I think when your adrenaline is surging saying "Your going to die" you don't feel much. Afterwards yea, probably.
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Old August 6, 2010, 01:31 PM   #13
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TylerD has it right; you keep fighting as long as you can. I attended schools offerred by the US Custom's Service, Surviving Armed Confrontations, and that was their advice. There is only one shot that is an immediate stop. One placed above the upper lip & below the nose; Cerebral Cortex is gone & the BG becomes a rag doll. Otherwise, keep shooting until the reason to use deadly force is gone.
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Old August 6, 2010, 01:54 PM   #14
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Cool, that they actually taught you if shot not to stop. I hope a lot of training places do that. Seems like you know biology too TJH thats what I think of as a head shot. Right in the center face like you said the nose joins the upper lip with in a 3-4inch circle to bottom of eybrows about, I would guess. Thats what you want to hit for the immediate stop, otherwise people can still twitch. Can't always get that shot but it is the best spot. People othere than a head shot can keep going, sometimes even with. The human body really is like a tank.
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Old August 6, 2010, 01:58 PM   #15
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My pop worked vice and did a lot of night raids which he didn't like. This was back in the late 60s and early 70s. After coming home after a raid, maybe 2:00 am, he was upset by a phone call that came about an hour later and he had to leave again. It seems that one of his team had been shot in the raid, didn't know it until he got home and was undressing and his wife insisted he go to the hospital. It was the hospital that had called my father.

On the opposite extreme are those that die from non-lethal wounds as a result of going into shock.
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Old August 6, 2010, 03:33 PM   #16
TylerD45ACP
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Wow. Thats a pretty wild story. That just makes me think even more that the body can take more than you even know. Like that LEO he didnt realize he was shot until his wife (visually) pointed it out to him. Then he started to react. True people can die from shock, your blood pressure goes to low (40%+ blood loss and your pretty much done for), etc. I think by these post though Im keeping my mind set in a SD situation if Im not incapacitated, Im continuing the fight. Thanks for the posts guys.
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Old August 6, 2010, 04:06 PM   #17
Glenn Bartley
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Never been shot but have been beaten badly on at least two occasions while working as an LEO. Once I was beaten to the ground repeatedly and kept getting up and fighting back despite numerous strikes to my head, neck, shoulders, back and arms with my own night stick. I was able to survive, because I was able to get a gun out of my car (I was off duty and had stopped at a bar for one beer so left the revolver in the car) and the bad guys ceased the attack at that point. I was able to get the gun only because I fought back, despite fairly serious head injuries - contusions, cuts, concussion, possible slight nerve/brain damage, other injuries to muscles such as contusions - I kept getting up and fighting each time they beat me down. The they were 4 or 5 attackers. I am sure of 4, maybe there was another.

Another time I was beaten, I was able to fight off at least 5 attackers who tried to take away my gun to kill me. I retained it, freed myself from their grasp and fired a shot over the head of the gang leader that scared them, and about 15 or 20 others who were coming to help them, off. That probably will prove to be the one and only warning shot to be fired by me for the duration of my lifetime. Next time I am in a similar situation, it will not be a warning. The result, for me, of them trying to take a prisoner away from me was that:

I was diagnossed with a fractured sternum/zyphoid process, blood clots in my lungs and a lot of bruises. Diagnosis later changed to bruised sternum but I had another doc later tell me it had been fractured (it is cartilidge but can fracture as was the zyphoid process) and said the 23 bed hospital I was in did not know how to treat it and wanted me to be at ease with their diagnosis. (Bunch of quacks!) I did not know about the injuries until I woke up the next day with an awful lot of pain in my chest and as soon as I got out of bed I started to cough up blood and clots. Got xrayed later that second day.

The result for the bad guys was: the bad guys all fled to Mexico including my handcuffed prisoner. Cops found him later with blue/black hands due to lack of circulation, seems the cuff closed tight during the struggle. Mexican authorities arrested him and said he likely would go to jail for a few years.

That was about 28 years ago or so - what a change of attitude in the minds of Mexican & US authorities from then until now. We actually used to cooperate with one another. I got my cuffs back after making an official visit to the Chief of Homicide of the Judicial Baja California Norte.

Interesting visit - he had a hexagonal tank on his desk with 4 critters in it. They were all facing off across the center of the tank from the edges of the tank. As I recall, one was a sidewinder, another a big scorpion, another a tarantula and another a horned lizard. None were moving at all except for the rattler which moved its tongue a tiny bit now and then. I figured they were there for prisoner incentive during interrogations but the chief said he jsut wanted to see which made the first move and which would be the last one left alive. Sort of something that would fit in a Quentin Tarantino movie but I digress.

All the best,
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Old August 6, 2010, 04:23 PM   #18
TylerD45ACP
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Wow. Sorry you had to deal with all that because of those scumbags Glenn. Sounds like you fought with all you had. But, you were definitley in a situation both times were your life was threatened. After I went through that I wounded fire another warning shot either. Mexicans and U.S. authorities, o man don't even get me going on that. It is rediculous what is going on now. Thanks for sharing that, hope you never have to deal with that again.
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Old August 6, 2010, 04:25 PM   #19
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Wow, Mr. Bartley!

What a harrowing pair of incidents. Talk about "True Grit", man-oh-man. Glad to see you survived and the beatings didn't scramble your eggs too badly. Admirable restraint in that second incident not to have ended a few of those animals right on the spot. The cowards clearly had murderous intent and would have earned all they got.

I love that last bit about the Chief in Mexico. Yes! A Tarentino movie!

Best regards,

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Old August 6, 2010, 04:33 PM   #20
TylerD45ACP
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Thats true you did show a lot of restraint. Im not sure what I would have done either though. Those were some serious situations. You prevailed. That is pretty good about the chief in Mexico too. I got a kick out of that.
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Old August 6, 2010, 06:27 PM   #21
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I do not know about true grit, I was scared just about to the point of the pucker factor failing me and my pants getting dirty from another type of grit. No matter how scared, I knew fighting was better than giving up each time. Maybe it was because of my training and practice, and that kicked in before I even realized I was scared. So, I reverted to my training and to my will to fight and not give up and that helped even though I was scared. Is that grit? I do not think so, I think it is just doing what ou can to make sure you get home to see the wife and kids again. Anyway, chances are, that is not what they meant when John Wayne played the part of Rooster Cogburn in the movie True Grit.

In fact, I never want to find myself in any situations like those again, but they happen now and again, as do others that could become as bad but are more often cooled down before they get that bad. If one does get that bad again though, I hope I never give up in a situation like that. Back then, I also had hoped I would never again face another situation like that but I certainly have faced some more of them over the years. I try to do the right thing each time and de-escalate a situation and if it gets worse I try to deal with as I know I should.

I just wish things like that would stop happening involving me but as recently as a few months ago I had to intervene on behalf of a man, woman and their 9 or 10 year old daughter when they were accosted by a jerk. I hosed him with pepper spray and he finally got the idea it was better to leave than hang around. I let him leave, had the husband call the police and got him arrested by them; I was out in Phoenix at the time on an assignment for work.

I have a black cloud that follows me around. Although it has made for an interesting life, it would be okay by me if I got a little more sunshine now that I am older. I am getting on in years, I suppose much as was Rooster Cogburn. Whether or not I have grit, I can tell you this, that kind of thing is 'No Country For Old Men' and I am getting there in years (I'll be retiring this year or next).

One other thing, about me and restraint. I think that it was more uncertainty than restraint that I showed in taking the warning shot. I was very young, pretty new as a border patrol agent, and the guy was unarmed but had already hurt me and was urging others to "kill him" - the him being me. I saw the other coming, he started to approach me too, from a fairly close distance, I was scaredfor my life very literally, and I fired a round that seemd to actually part his hair as it whoosed up as the bullet or muzzle blast passed over his head. It would have been a lot more intelligent of me had I shot him, but a lot harder to live with if I had done so. As it was it turned out okay and I was not tried before a jury of what would have been his peers. Still though, I could have been killed had he charged me at that point and gotten hold of my revolver. Restraint - nope; just not sure of what to do because he was unarmed but still posed a deadly threat to me. I know better now how to assess and act in such a situation.

Thanks for the compliment, it is appreciated.

All the best,
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Old August 6, 2010, 06:53 PM   #22
TylerD45ACP
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I say you showed some pretty big guts. Obviously your survival instincts kicked in but you still did very well. At least thats my opinion.
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Old August 6, 2010, 09:47 PM   #23
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Trooper stopped a car about a mile from here. Approacing the car his "spidey sense" tingled and he reached for his weapon. Firefight ensued. he dove for cover and shot the back window out of a Camero, which sped off. He jumped back into hisd cruiser and it stalled; radiator shot out. Jumped into a passing turnpike truck, driver of which saw the fight and crossed the median, u-turn. Trooper discovered his thigh was "sticky". Took one round through and through; continued pursuit until Camero crashed and another juristicton took over.

Back on active duty 10 days later.

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Old August 7, 2010, 12:53 PM   #24
TylerD45ACP
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Thats awesome that the pickup guy turned to help him out. There was a fight in Boston between a LEO and Meth criminal or PCP. A LEO was fighting a Methed out guy(serious wrestling the guys going for his gun, its on youtube.) NO ONE WOULD HELP HIM. If I ever saw a LEO in any serious trouble, I would rush to help them. Another story of not feeling it (the shot/s) until after the intial exchange. Im going to convince myself if Im not incapacitated immediatley, I probably won't die at least not on the spot. I will keep fighting for survival. I think this is a good mindset to have, KEEP your body going.
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Old August 21, 2010, 11:42 AM   #25
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While being motivated and determined to keep fighting regardless of being shot there's a lot to the effects of wounds that we're still learning about. Even Mas Ayoob says in his book "The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery" that many people who were stopped by one shot which didn't strike the CNS "were hard fighters, impervious to fear, and it is most unlikely that a psychological dread of being shot caused them to faint". He goes on to explain different theories as to why even those people were stopped.

I state this not to show people not to be determined and confident to keep going and to win a fight but rather to show that it's much more complicated than many think and still a lot that we don't know about the subject.
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