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Old August 5, 2010, 04:01 PM   #26
JN01
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If the relatively small amount of unrecovered lead from lost game and/or shotgun pellets caused millions of wildlife deaths, then shouldn't there have been massive amounts of lead poisoned dead animals around battlefields where huge numbers of lead projectiles could be found on the ground, in trees, horse and human carcasses, etc? The Civil War should have killed off at least a few species you would think.
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Old August 5, 2010, 04:21 PM   #27
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I were borned and razed neer Geddysberg, PA. I ternd owt jus fyne!


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Old August 5, 2010, 04:56 PM   #28
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Most anyone who has had aquariums knows copper is a toxin in the tank.A few pennies will kill your fish.Copper is one way to rid a tank of pest snails.
Oh well,lets ban copper bullets,too!!!(especially since they are being used in commercial ammunition)
But then,shouldn't we remove all copper plumbing?heck,lots of it still has lead solder.Replace it with PolyVinylChloride plastic pipe,solvent bonded with Methylene Chloride,MethylEthyl Ketone,and the like.
This is part of the means to an end deals.
Lead is a common man's instrument of resistance.That is the real agenda.All resistance is futile.You must assimilate.
Yeah,right.
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Old August 5, 2010, 06:10 PM   #29
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My friend has lead drain lines in his house. I touched them once. Do you think I should go to the hospital? I petted my dog before I had washed my hands too...should I have him put down so he doesn't go through all that pain they talked about?
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Old August 5, 2010, 08:15 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Blue Train View Post
Antipas, you're gonna havta use smaller words just for me to unnerstand.
Pithy, my man... Your comments were pithy.
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Old August 6, 2010, 11:07 PM   #31
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I don't know what's more alarming in this thread: the paranoia, or the utter disregard for science.
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Old August 7, 2010, 12:17 AM   #32
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or the utter disregard for science.
If you can point to any objective "science" in this thread, please do so.
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Old August 7, 2010, 02:22 PM   #33
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Any lead ammo ban would have NOTHING to do with considerations of wildlife, environment, or human health issues, it's about the firearms people!!
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Old August 8, 2010, 06:07 AM   #34
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ABD,we do not eat the bullet hole in game.The wound trauma is trimmed away.The bullet itself is designed to retain most of its weight.From a 165 gr bullet,maybe 40 gr will be lost.The effects of high velocity damage tissue in a larger radius than the lead does.However,this trimming typically does not take place in the field.The tissue is not left for scavengers.
We go to great pains to not create bullet trauma to the organs commonly in the gutpile.We prefer not to have the contents of them on our meat.As the gutpile is intact,it follows it does not have lead shards.
Science is good.What is a problem is people with agendas about greed and power corrupt science.
Will there be any lead or cadmium or any other toxic metals in the batteries of hybrid/electric cars?What about the mercury in light bulbs?You see,here in my home town,they recomend we not eat more than one fish a month from our local reservoir.Horsetooth Res,Northern Colorado.It is not about lead,it is about mercury.Yet we will be mandated to mercury lghtbulbs.
Isthere any toxic metal in all the personal electronics?
The hypocricy reveals the dishonesty.
Like,say,Al Gore lavish lifestyle and overconsumption.Greed and power are the motivation.
Minds of tofu are indoctrinated to become useful idiots
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Old August 8, 2010, 06:36 AM   #35
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That is precisely my point. Plenty of things harm animals in the wild, a lot more than lead does.
The problem here is that we are putting lead into environments where lead was not located previously. It may not be the number one problem affecting wildlife, but not being number one doesn't make it invalid. There are a lot worse things than skin cancer that will kill you, but that doesn't stop folks from trying to put an end to skin cancer. In short, just because there are other things out there that are more harmful does not in any way mean that the cause or claims are not appropriate. There may be lots of reasons why their claims are not valid, but lead not topping the threats to animals isn't one of them.
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Old August 8, 2010, 12:53 PM   #36
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ABD,we do not eat the bullet hole in game.The wound trauma is trimmed away.The bullet itself is designed to retain most of its weight.From a 165 gr bullet,maybe 40 gr will be lost.The effects of high velocity damage tissue in a larger radius than the lead does.However,this trimming typically does not take place in the field.The tissue is not left for scavengers.
Except that studies of processed wild venison, packaged for home consumption or sale, still show hundreds of microfragments of lead, even in parts of the meat that have no blood marks or other telltale signs. In fact, the North Dakota Department of Health for that reason has now recommended that food banks discontinue the use of hunter-killed venison. Here's an article on a doctor who discovered lead particles in the meat he himself had shot, and raised the alarm.

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/news/...4ba38a3ef.html

Quote:
Will there be any lead or cadmium or any other toxic metals in the batteries of hybrid/electric cars?
They run on lithium-based batteries, not lead or cadmium.

Quote:
What about the mercury in light bulbs?You see,here in my home town,they recomend we not eat more than one fish a month from our local reservoir.Horsetooth Res,Northern Colorado.It is not about lead,it is about mercury.Yet we will be mandated to mercury lghtbulbs.
The amount of mercury in compact fluorescent light bulbs is greatly exaggerated. The amount released, even if you shatter one, is less than the amount of mercury released by burning coal to power an old style lightbulb. However, if you're worried, you could get LED light bulbs, which don't contain any mercury. The downside is they aren't quite as bright as CFLs, at least not yet, because the technology for high output LEDs is still maturing.

Quote:
Isthere any toxic metal in all the personal electronics?
Not since 2003, which is when lead and other dangerous metals were banned in electronics imported into the EU, leading manufacturers to eliminate lead and so forth from any of their products worldwide.
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Old August 8, 2010, 01:34 PM   #37
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Here's an article on a doctor who discovered lead particles in the meat he himself had shot, and raised the alarm.
Interesting. The article was from 2008 -- I wonder if he shot his next deer with a Barnes bullet, and if so, what the results were.
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Old August 8, 2010, 03:54 PM   #38
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So,the lead matters and the mercury does not.
You could handle the problem by using non lead ammo for yourself,but you prefer to ban lead.
Yet you tell me if I have a problem with mercury light bulbs,I should buy LED light bulbs.I agree.with that point.You shoot whatever you want.Leave my lead alone.
Lately I have heard about one type of person,who if they don't want a gun,they do not buy a gun.Another type of person wants to ban guns.
How much ammunition do you shoot a year?
I make my own bullets.I cannot do that with anything but lead.
22 rimfires must use lead bullets.Kids and entry level shooters won't have much chance .
You may call me paranoid,and I may call you naive
But I say when you take the home cast bullet away,you take away the claw and tooth of the populace.A gun you cannot feed is useless.
I want my great grandchildren to be able to shoot a 22.I want them to be able to home cast a lead bullet.
They will be far more betrayed by a world where they lack the LIBERTY to do so in your utopia than they will by the trace lead you worry about.
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Old August 8, 2010, 03:57 PM   #39
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I have question..sorry for the lack of comment but maybe somebody could check the math on these two and give a definitive answer so I could intelligently compare the two.

This is the level of lead found in the game in this article which talks about lead in wild game.

Quote:
1.27 micrograms per deciliter, compared with 0.84 for those who ate no game
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ammunition-ban


This is from the EPA online site that talks about the action levels of contaminates in drinking water

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/index.html#8


Quote:
For copper, the action level is 1.3 mg/L, and for lead it is 0.015 mg/L.
So how does that translate to micrograms and deciliters for the EPA figure?

If I do this right that would translate to 15,000 micrograms in one liter of water?????????????? Been a long time folks.

Please feel free to correct me if I did not do it right.

For you chemists/math folks/engineers out there I know we have some smart guys on here how does that compare to the lead in game.
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Old August 8, 2010, 06:39 PM   #40
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A deciliter is 1/10 of a liter. A microgram (µg) is expressed as 1e-06.00g or .000001g.

So that, 1.27µg per deciliter = 12.7µg per liter. For reloaders, that is .000195 gr per liter (33.814 oz. --> 32 oz = 1 quart).
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Old August 9, 2010, 02:11 AM   #41
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So,the lead matters and the mercury does not.
Of course mercury matters. But to compare the 4 milligrams of mercury in a CFL, which is sealed away from the environment, with the roughly 3,000 tons a year of lead that's released into the environment via hunting rounds, and to claim that one invalidates the other, is ridiculous. And it smacks of an attitude of "everything's just fine, leave it alone," even when it's not necessarily fine.

That lake where you can't eat the fish is that way because decades ago when science was trying to convince people that coal-fired power plants were dangerous and dirty, most folks had the attitude that we'd been using coal for power for a hundred years, therefore it was obviously safe. And anyone saying otherwise was some kind of pinko commie tree hugger. Now you have a lake where you can only eat one fish a month. I for one would prefer not to have my future kids sitting where I am in twenty years, wishing that people had listened about the dangers of lead before we filled the ecosystem with it. Because you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

There's another good article here that goes into details about the lead levels in the blood of various people tested in North Dakota, including one older hunter who was within 0.2 milligrams of the legal definition of lead poisoning.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&gl=us&strip=1

Quote:
You could handle the problem by using non lead ammo for yourself,but you prefer to ban lead.
Actually, I prefer to not irrationally decry scientific research claiming it's a conspiracy to seize guns. You can cast whatever you like to plink with. And there's plenty of lead-free .22 rimfire rounds available too, for about the same price as I'd pay for the same sized box of lead based .22s. There's lots and lots of lead-free hunting rounds, and there's even alternatives for people who like to cast, like tin, which is slightly lighter but also much easier to melt. So to equate lead-free hunting bullets for hunting with an assault on hunters, or part of some scheme to take away guns, is silly. You might as well be demanding the "liberty" to drench yourself in DDT. Buy one box of lead-free bullets a year to hunt with and move on with life.
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Old August 9, 2010, 08:08 AM   #42
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ADB, here's the part of sloppy reporting that leads many to believe that this is, is fact, fear mongering. The article you referenced says:
Quote:
their average blood lead level was 1.27 micrograms of lead per 10 deciliters of blood
Where the article in Scientific American (that Eghad referenced) said 1.27µg per deciliter... Which is it? because the former is 10 times higher than the latter.

Note bene: For those that are math impaired, 1.27µg / 10 deciliters = .127µg / deciliter.

Quote:
... — two-thirds higher than people who did not consume wild game.
That, above, is plain fear mongering. The author didn't come out and say that those who didn't eat game, had levels at .84µg per (10?) deciliters. No, the author says 2/3 higher! You'll have to pardon me, when I say that 1.27µg is 51% higher than .84µg, not 66% as the article states.

We have a .43µg difference in lead levels, with no attribution in how the lead levels of the non-game eating controls got that high. With no mention of how the controls were contaminated, I smell agenda.
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Old August 10, 2010, 01:19 AM   #43
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I sure am looking forward to dove season.A little cream cheese in a half a jalapeno,maybe a sliver of garlic and a slice of portobella,a filet of dove breast shot with lead antimony shot,wrapped in bacon and grilled over a charcoal fire,though propane will do,if it must.
We have always had really good drinking water here.Of course,it comes out of the faucet from the same lake with mercury fish.We don't have a coal plant nearby,its natural gas.Could be there is gold in them hills.
I believe we are an integral part of the great plan.I believe the ultimate solar cell is the green plant.It stores the suns energy beautifully.It makes corn,a wonderful mix of carbon,hydrogen oxygen, that I,an unashamed carbon based organism,can eat,or feed to protien animals.
Firewood,stored solar energy I can use for heat and light,but better yet,what a gift from the earth,OIL.And coal.These fuels have given mankind the freedom to travel with speed and safety,and a marvelous infrastructure,24-7 I can stick a card in a pump and fuel up!!
Millions and millions of people would not survive the first winter without it.

Mao said "All political power forms out of the barrel of a gun.It is true.Political power is the power to coerce.All people,parties,and politics that are about incresing political power are about increasing the power to coerce.
In the end,those who want to ban lead also want that 250,000 strong civilian security force( that was a campaign promise) to be able to kick in my door with a no-knock warrant to arrest me for possesion of a controlled substance,a metallic element we have been blessed with.
You see,as all political power grows from the barrel of a gun,and we are a government of the people,by the people and for the people,the people need lead to keep freedom secure.
If you want to buy 10 non toxic rounds,do ahead.I can shoot a lead ball from a flintlock,recover it,cast it ant shoot it again.
Folks who want to ban lead want a flock of helpless people.If they build that,He will come.The next Stalin,or Hitler..Stories get told over and over.

It is you,shooter,they want to make a criminal out of for posession of lead.

Long ago I would recite from Gary Snyder's "Turtle Island" I started driving 30 mpg vehicle in the 70's,with a Mini-Cooper.I am a minimum impact camper,and generally minimum impact.It breaks 100 deg here,I have no interest in owning or running air conditioning.I am still driving a wonderful,clean running 1983 Tercel I built from recycled junk in 1998.
I view this trendy quasi-religion Al Gore corrupt dogmatic propaganda with the disdain it desrves.The very day someone used a spotted owl ,not to care anything about the owl they trapped and planted,but as a tool to use to gain power,it all bcame a lie,worthy of no respect.The east Anglia e-mails,data corruption.Lies.
Multiple mansions and flying all over in big jets,massive consumption of everything for the epitome of a fat(literally) cat might as well be Marie Antoinette telling the masses with no bread to eat cake.
Corrupt scum corrupting young skulls full of the bland protien TOFU.

Ah,I must think happy place.My muzzle loader Pronghorn tag.Lead Round ball,54.Yes.Ommmmmmm........

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Old August 10, 2010, 11:36 AM   #44
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Purusing Google on this topic - shows that there is a very strong movement underway to ban lead ammunition (which means all bullets that contain lead whether totally copper clad or not) - that much of the hunting forums are on board with it already - and that there is a slight division between some who want to ban just lead hunting bullets and those that want to ban all lead bullets. Given the strong alliance between environmentalists, animal rights acivivsts, many hunters, gun control advocates, and the Federal governmemts plan to ban all lead bullets on federal land - this movement is already far advanced.

Scientific evidence does seem to show some increase in blood levels of individuals who consume wild game shot with lead projectiles. There is little scientific evidence to date on any long term effects or evidence of lead poisoning in individuals who habitually eat wild game harvested with lead projectiles.

Given the support I already see for this movement and the general publics predisposition to support environmental regulation - I think the bottom line is that all lead bullets will be banned on public land and for hunting purposes and we will be lucky if all lead bullets aren't banned totally. And if you think that the hunting community and organizations will oppose this - you had best think again - as it is divided - and from what I can see many hunters are proponents of the idea.
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Old August 10, 2010, 11:51 AM   #45
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Here is a good summary of the issue - including some points and information that I wasn't aware of:

http://www.texashuntingchat.com/gene...d-bullets.html

Looks like they are shooting for a ban on all lead ammunition and not just for hunting ammunition.

Can you imagine the cost of clays or skeet with no lead or IPSC or other shooting sports? What are they going to shoot out of old style muzzleloaders? Throw out all that casting equipment?

Last edited by mack59; August 10, 2010 at 11:59 AM.
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Old August 10, 2010, 12:37 PM   #46
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Yep, each lead bullet a felony, each mould a federal offense. They'll have to change my name to osama been leadin
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Old August 10, 2010, 10:43 PM   #47
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Poison?

I have friend that has a lead pellet in the palm of his hand. You can actually see it. When he was a kid he put his hand over the muzzle of a pellet gun to see what it would feel like. The doctors left the lead pellet in because removng it would have done more harm then good. He has survived near fifty years with lead in his hand.

I guess lead must be a slow acting toxin!
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Old August 11, 2010, 12:51 AM   #48
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Seeing as we now have excellent non-toxic ammo available, I really wouldn't be terribly opposed to a lead ban for hunting ammo
Ahhhhh, Jeez, Doyle---Wake up! It's not about banning lead. It's a back door tactic to place yet more restrictions on your right to hunt, target shoot, and defend yourself. After the ban on lead, what's next on their agenda?

Well, it's banning guns, but they don't have the political support for that right now, especially in a growing pro 2A climate, so the attack is coming from a less conventional direction. Ban lead, put taggants in powder, micro stamping, smart guns---I suspect they'll want to have a "copper bullet excise tax" next. This is anti-gun legislation using the environment as bait.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Think I'll go have a Red Bull (only because I gave up drinking years ago).
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Old August 11, 2010, 02:43 AM   #49
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So if they actually banned lead, what is there? Bismuth? Steel? Some strange alloy I don't know about?
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Old August 11, 2010, 04:40 AM   #50
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I believe the brits told Ghandi he was forbidden to make salt at the sea in the old tradition.Ghandi and his people made salt anyway.They suffered for it,but they made salt.
Any man who can believe it is a good day to die can remain free his whole life.
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