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Old July 27, 2010, 07:52 PM   #1
GunGuy34
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IPSC competitions

When i first heard of IPSC i assumed that the people in the competition would be using factory ammo and a stock pistol. Instead I find out that they have fancy modified pistols and they load there own ammo, such as 40 cal, but load it so it has less recoil for easier shooting. They do this to get the Major rating. To me that seems like cheating. I would have more respect for a guy that can walk out and shoot the lights out with a stock gun and factory ammo. Cause thats what is available to most people. Well just my opinion.
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Old July 27, 2010, 09:19 PM   #2
Frank Ettin
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One can compete however he wishes, as long as he does so in accordance with the rules. Many people compete in IPSC using stock, or nearly stock guns. And there's now the Production Division and the Single Stack Division which allow few modifications.

Most serious competitors do use handloads, primarily, I believe, for economic reasons. Back when I was competing regularly, I was going through between 1,000 and 2,000 rounds a month. The cost would have been prohibitive if I were using factory ammunition.

But it's like any other game. The more serious competitors do whatever they can within the rules to get every permissible advantage. But make no mistake. The top shooters are great shooters. You could give any one of them pretty much any decent gun out of the box, and they'd shoot rings around most of us. They are extremely skilled and, like any competitor, look to their equipment for any additional competitive edge they can get.

But for us regular folks, IPSC competition (or IDPA), with our normal gear is great fun, and offers a lot of very good practice handling a gun safely under stress and while moving.

In IPSC competition, you really get the chance to practice things like always being aware of where your muzzle is, and keeping your finger out of the trigger guard and indexed along the frame except when you're actually shooting, and using the safety, engaging multiple targets, shooting quickly and accurately, shooting while moving, shooting from unconventional postures, etc. -- all while doing other things like moving around the course, sometimes opening doors or moving obstacles, identifying targets and reloading. And you're doing all this under stress -- because its competition and because you're on the clock.



So give it a try in Limited, Limited 10, Single Stack or Production Division. It’s a great way to refine your gun handling.
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Old July 27, 2010, 09:29 PM   #3
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im going to be doing the black badge course in august, i have shot alot already and my gun of choice is my G17, i know it wont get the major ranking but im getting pretty good with it. So ill use that first and see where it goes. I dont expect to be some top shooter, and i doubt ill ever do my own reloading. I got a good job so i can afford the factory ammo. If anything else i guess it will be a great place to meet people with similar interests and learn more.
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Old July 27, 2010, 09:37 PM   #4
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I always shot my unaltered carry gun with carry holster !!!
Finally I left when it seemed that I was the only one that did. You might try IDPA instead.
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Old July 27, 2010, 09:39 PM   #5
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Hmmm... let's compare....

Quote:
I would have more respect for a guy that can walk out and shoot the lights out with a stock gun and factory ammo. Cause thats what is available to most people.

So, if you go to a hot rod race. Do you expect to see an average souped up stock car? No - you see special expensive cars to go as fast as possible.

For the serious shooters (competitors) - all the advantage one can do within the rules.

Don't worry....
You can also compete in their new division especially designed for stock pistols. Or you can also try out IDPA www.idpa.com

I suspect your "performance" was lacking a bit. You can't compare a new shooter to someone that has a master's rating or higher. You have to score yourself with other level shooters - otherwise you're just going to frustrate yourself.

Go practice and learn the basics to improve your score. Improve your holster draw time, smoother magazine changes and rapid fire while moving skills.

Your new - go and get the practice in and learn from the pros. See what division will work for you.
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Old July 27, 2010, 09:50 PM   #6
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Go for it, be safe and have fun. You'll learn a lot, and your shooting will improve. Compete with yourself. Look for improvement in your scores.
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Old July 27, 2010, 11:44 PM   #7
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Gunguy- Do yourself a favor and enter a match. You'll be blown away how good some of the shooters are, even with stock guns. People have put years of effort into improvong thier skills, and it shows.

I shot in a local league for five years, and probably peaked at about year four. I had a bit of PPC style shooting under my belt, and was lucky/unlucky enough to win the fifth match I entered...that was a setback. I didn't win another match for over a year, and my performance was all over the map chasing a one-in-a-million performance. At this time I was also smithing full time and had a 1911 in my had 20 times a day, and was coached by a guy who had placed at the Steel Challence back in the day. I did fine in my three little leagues, but as soon as I hit the matches with the more experienced shooters, or when we had a guest who was from the Richmond Hotshots, or other more advanced leagues, reality struck.

These guys are amazingly fast and accurate, factory ammo or not, comp gun or not. Shoot your first match and report back.
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Old July 28, 2010, 12:06 AM   #8
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old kim, this post isnt the post of a sore loser, there was no performance on my behalf. I havent competed yet. As i posted earler im rather new and will be doing the black badge course comming up this august. It was in the reading ive done on the competition and some of the forums ive been on, as well as videos etc. Ill have to check the link you provided, not sure if we have that in Canada. Either way it will be enjoyable to go and be a part of it.

This guy is good but he an't using a stock gun. However, im sure he would do fine with one.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/...pid61181609001
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Old July 28, 2010, 09:32 AM   #9
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I had to google "black badge course", so ok.

The top IPSC (or USPSA, down here) shooters with a single stack and full power ball ammo will outshoot most of us with fancy guns and barely-major power factor ammo. Its the Indian, not the arrow. Beyond that, it is a game. And single stacks do not shoot in the same division as as open guns.

I reload my own ammo simply because I shoot so much that factory ammo cost would be prohibitive. Paid for that Dillon 550 in a few months. Some of the top guys shoot 20K+ rounds a year. It adds up.

Lee
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Old July 28, 2010, 09:50 AM   #10
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It sounds like you're good to go for Production, and IPSC only scores you against other shooters in that same division, so I don't really get your point here; most shooters end up reloading their own ammo just because it makes financial sense to do so (you either end up saving 30%, or being able to shoot 30% more for the same amount). Go out and give it a try, and you'll have fun, I guarantee.
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Old July 28, 2010, 09:58 AM   #11
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I'm with GunGuy34,,,

I like to see displays of skill in a competition,,,
Rather than displays of I have more money to spend than you.

Back in the late 60's when all of us young buck were into drag racing,,,
They came out with a class called "Pure Stock".

Your car had to be factory stock,,,
You could pull your air filter and hubcaps,,,
I think you were allowed to have after market glass packs,,,
But other than that your car had to be just like it was when built.

That allowed us poor boys to have fun and meet girls as well,,,
The competition came down to who could drive & tune their car the best.

I'm not chewing sour grapes either,,,
I just want to see some shoots designed for ordinary folk.

.
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Old July 28, 2010, 12:49 PM   #12
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It's the Indian, not the arrow; the best shooters win, regardless of their equipment. You go get a trick, $3000 race gun, load some wimpy ammo, then give a stock Glock and factory +P to a Master class shooter, and he'll easily beat you. Only among shooters of the same skill level does equipment play much of a role, and if you're trying to win all the marbles, you need every advantage.
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Old July 28, 2010, 12:54 PM   #13
GunGuy34
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yes rick, but when your starting out, your competeing against guys with their pimped out pistols, so your never gonna win. I do like the idea of a competition in which only stock pistol with factory ammo is allowed. Then it comes down to the shooter not the equipment. I know at a certain level that everybody is so good that equipement is the deciding factor, just wish there was like a beginners or amature level, when you had a chance to compete against your own level of experience.
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Old July 28, 2010, 01:04 PM   #14
ice9_us
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They came out with a class called "Pure Stock".

that in uspsa is called production...


another that is somewhat fair are the limited divisons.
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Old July 28, 2010, 03:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
but when your starting out, your competeing against guys with their pimped out pistols, so your never gonna win.
When you're just starting out, you're not gonna win anyway, so just go, be safe, learn what you can, and enjoy yourself. The guys you'll be shooting with will mostly be local shooters as well, so eventually, despite their tricked-out guns you ought be able to beat them with your stock if you want (read: if you practice).

I shot a big rimfire steel match this weekend. In fact, it was my first rimfire steel match ever. For the pistol portion, I a stock 10-shot iron-sighted double action .22LR revolver in Limited, and beat about three quarters of the tricked-out Open guys. (unfortunately, my rifle skills are badly wanting, so I tanked on the rifle portion, and only my ego took a beating. ).

At any rate, most forms of competition classify and the guns and shooters' ability into different divisions and classes, so you're shooting against similarly-equipped guns and shooters of similar experience.

Quote:
I'm not chewing sour grapes either,,,
I just want to see some shoots designed for ordinary folk.
Quote:
just wish there was like a beginners or amature level, when you had a chance to compete against your own level of experience.
As mentioned, USPSA Production and IDPA (and rimfire steel) come to mind. IDPA was specifically set up so as not to be an equipment race. You can shoot a local match as an unclassified novice. Likely several times. Once you classify, you're only competing against those in your class and division.

Everyone had to start, so don't sweat the equipment (yours or theirs), get out there, be safe, learn, practice and have fun.
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Old July 28, 2010, 04:34 PM   #16
GunGuy34
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I am looking forward to the black badge course. Im kinda clumsy so it will be nice to learn how to move , ie on the run etc with a firearm. Theres alot of firearms safety to be learned yet. It will be fun im sure.
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Old July 28, 2010, 09:57 PM   #17
SavageMOA
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As others have said, the gun and ammo is of little importance.

Read the IPSC rules and you will understand that a "stock" gun belongs in production division, with minor power factor ammo (which is what most commercial 9mm ammo comes out at). Minor power factor ammo IS soft.

Major power factor ammo, is actually just slightly softer than factory .40 or .45. I actually used a case of factory .40S&W ammo instead of my reloads when it was given to me, and you know what? I actually placed right where I normally do.

If you want to compete in Open division, get a race gun so you will be competitive. There are other divisions, standard and modified, which I won't go in to.

If you're not impressed by guys like Eric Grauffel, Julien Bolt, or Max Michel Jr, who use "race guns" and "modified ammo." Then you're looking in the wrong place.
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Old July 28, 2010, 10:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
another that is somewhat fair are the limited divisons.
All of the divisions are fair. As long as you are using the prescribed equipment for the division.

To use the racing analogy, are you going to show up at an F1 race with a Nissan Sentra and complain because everyone else is using race cars?

There are divisions for every gun. Find a division that your equipment fits in and strive to become the best. Your equipment will NEVER hold you back.
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Old July 28, 2010, 11:16 PM   #19
ice9_us
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hehe

I am looking forward to the black badge course. Im kinda clumsy so it will be nice to learn how to move , ie on the run etc with a firearm. Theres alot of firearms safety to be learned yet. It will be fun im sure.
--------------------

Well..
#1 thing you will learn... It is very hard to shoot while moving...
#2 thing VERY FUN..
#3 Very nice bunch of guys to hang out with.

I can't say enough about just going and having fun.. I have learned a whole lot from the group that i am with. They are always willing to help, and know a great deal about what they do... VERY VERY FUN!!!

Enjoy
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Old July 29, 2010, 05:01 PM   #20
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"yes rick, but when your starting out, your competeing against guys with their pimped out pistols, so your never gonna win."

The point being made here is that you're only "competing" against other shooters in the same division; Open shooters are competing against other Open shooters, Production shooters are competing against other Production shooters, Revolver shooters are competing against other Revolver shooters, and so on, even though they will all actually shoot the same course of fire. If you come in as the top Production shooter, you still win Production, even though your hit factor may end up being lower (or even higher) than any other division, so don't get hung up on the fact that other divisions may use different equipment.
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Old July 30, 2010, 03:20 PM   #21
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I think the "race-guns" are cool. Just like autoracing top level stuff trickles down into production level average Joe stuff. Why do you think thre are
so many "nice" factory 1911s nowadays. Alot of "standard" features a new guns were not such even 15years ago.
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Old July 31, 2010, 02:42 AM   #22
AzShooter
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Dance with the girl you brought.

I've been shooting USPSA for 30 years and I shoot a revolver. Why, that's the gun I like to shoot. It's fun no matter what division you are in and I get the enjoyment of beating some of the auto shooters from time to time.

Just consider it a training session and compete against yourself. Don't worry about what the other guy is shooting.
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Old August 4, 2010, 08:37 AM   #23
WESHOOT2
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if you really think it matters.......

Ah, perhaps experiencing instead of speculating will cause learning.

Learning will cause improvement. Good thing.
But go, because it is fun.

There is plenty of IPSC on your side of the line. Just them funny-looking targets, is all.....
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Old August 12, 2010, 02:57 AM   #24
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Quote:
I like to see displays of skill in a competition,,,
Rather than displays of I have more money to spend than you.
Just about anyone ranked B class or better will be able to do fairly well regardless of the whether they are using a stock gun or a fairly tricked out one. You don't get that good just by having expensive gear.

Also, remember that when you compete, you are measured not only against only those with the same type of gear (Open, Limited, Production, etc.), but also only against those in the same class (D, C, B, A, Master, Grand Master, etc.). So while you may be a C class shooter and get smoked by a Master, it doesn't matter since your actual standing is only relevant to other C class shooters.

Quote:
I'm not chewing sour grapes either,,,
I just want to see some shoots designed for ordinary folk.
Try IDPA.
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Old August 27, 2010, 08:44 AM   #25
Jesse Tischauser
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The Remington 9mm in the green box is right at the minimum power factor if 125 for uspsa standards. So if you buy that off the shelf like I do and shoot it in production division it's a fair fight for everyone.
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