I think my friend is full of it.

sserdlihc · July 25, 2010, 10:00 PM

I have been reloading for alot of years. I have decided to start hunting with my 7mm mag again. I have reloaded Sierra 150 grain bt's for years. I have decided to start reloading Nosler Ballistic tips. I am not asking for any pet loads or recipes, that is what my reloading manuals are for.

A friend of mine that I hunt with reloads with Nosler Ballistic tips for his 7mm mag. He claims that he is getting 3250 ft per second with 63 grains of IMR 4350, with a 150 gr Ballistic tip! Instead of caling him a liar, which I am apt to do sometimes. I decided to investigate in alot of old Nosler manuals and I can't find anything close to 3250 feet per second for a 150 grain Ballistic Tip! I asked if he has ever had his loads chrono'd and his response has been "yep", but no proof has been shown to me. Funny thing is that he tried to give me a couple of his reloads to put thru my Ruger and I refused. No way will I run a reload of someone else's thru any of my rifles. I work up my loads.

To my more seasoned reloaders, is the above reload possible?? Please enlighten.

oneounceload · July 25, 2010, 10:18 PM

Possible? ANYTHING is possible. I personally prefer the Nosler 160 in my 700 7mag and with 4350, the load is listed close to 3000, so a 150?? maybe....HOWEVER, I have found in MY gun that max loads never were accurate. I can get better groups slowing it down just a little to around 2800 and still have plenty of punch.

YMMV

DiscoRacing · July 25, 2010, 10:21 PM

from IMR reloading data

150 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4350 .284" 3.270"
57.0 2786 52,400 PSI ------- 60.8 2931 59,400 PSI

57grains a powder at 2786fps
60.8 grains a powder at 2931fps

I would highly doubt getting 63 grains of powder in the case...let alone the bullet not spinning in the air before that speed...

I could be wrong tho.

**Brian Pfleuger** · July 25, 2010, 10:30 PM

Your friend may not be TOO crazy.

QuickLoad, with minor tweaking, says that a 63.0gr charge of IMR4350 would produce approximately 3013 fps from a 24" barrel and 3126 fps from a 28" barrel.

If your friend has a 28" barrel, 3250 would not be completely outside the realm of possibility.

I suspect that it's probably more like 3175, which became "3200", which became "3250" for dramatic effect.

However, even from a 24" barrel, there are a number of powders that QL thinks could reach 3200fps while staying within SAAMI specs. 4350 is not one of them, but the speed is not totally absurd.

sserdlihc · July 25, 2010, 10:40 PM

I doubt it myself. After thinking about it now, think I will get one of his reload and break it down.

Then I will confirm how much powder he is using.

sserdlihc · July 25, 2010, 10:46 PM

He is shooting a fairly old Ruger M77. I know the barrel isn't 28'' long. could be 26. It looks to be the same length as mine.

TXGunNut · July 26, 2010, 12:26 AM

Don't forget ambient temps. I had a .22-250 load that was pretty much maximum and on hot days the velocity went up enough that bullets "disappeared" on a regular basis and the ones that crossed the chrono were well above the forecast velocity.
Most of my friends are full of it, that's what makes them interesting.

Sport45 · July 26, 2010, 01:15 AM

Let him say what he wants. What's the harm in it?

Had a buddy in college that swore his Monte Carlo (with 305, I think) was clocked at 140 mph. Whatever...

TheNatureBoy · July 26, 2010, 08:03 AM

I've loaded for a 7mm rem mag with a 26 inch barrel using the same bullet and powder and didn't get anywhere close to 3250 fps. I'm outta town so I don't have my notes with me but I think I chronyed 2888 fps.

dahermit · July 26, 2010, 09:44 AM

Quote:

He claims that he is getting 3250 ft per second with 63 grains of IMR 4350, with a 150 gr Ballistic tip!

Reading in manuals will prove nothing. This is the situation in which a chronograph is called for.

Jim243 · July 26, 2010, 09:47 AM

I have a friend that always goes to max and then some. I wouldn't use any of his loads.

Quote:

Most of my friends are full of it, that's what makes them interesting

We must have the same friends! (LOL)

Your friend must be a fisherman. Is he still waiting for that 30" bass that jumped out of the boat??

Jim

sserdlihc · July 26, 2010, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Reading in manuals will prove nothing. This is the situation in which a chronograph is called for.

Reading in manuals, reading on maufacturers websites gives you a starting point. I agree a chrono is needed.

sserdlihc · July 26, 2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Let him say what he wants. What's the harm in it?

It insults my intelligence as a reloader for one.

**Mal H** · July 26, 2010, 10:45 AM

"I think my friend is full of it."

Well, I think he is too.

The solution is simple - ask him how he determined the muzzle velocity. Does he have a chronograph? Would he shoot one across it while you witness?

I once caught some 18" crappies in Lake Lanier, GA. They started out at about 10", but have grown over the years.

For some reason, bullet velocities tend to suffer from the same phenomenon.

Xfire68 · July 26, 2010, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Had a buddy in college that swore his Monte Carlo (with 305, I think) was clocked at 140 mph. Whatever...

That is completely possible! 140mph is not that fast for one and a lot can be done to a 305. Gearing is another factor as well. I had a friend that had a nice old T/A and he says it would do 170mph and I said the same as you "Whatever"...... He took me for the fastest I have ever gone in a car ride in my life! We did not hit 170mph but, 165mph was enough to convince me! His Dad used to build engines for Nascar's and he did a bit of work on this 455. It was the gearing the allowed him to hit such high speeds. Man that car was scary fast!

As to 3250fps if he is willing to put enough powder in the case then maybe?

**Brian Pfleuger** · July 26, 2010, 11:19 AM

The question is not really one of if the 150gr bullet can do 3250 but more of if it could do it with the specific load data. That, is not possible without a 28" barrel or longer and even then it would be a high end anomaly.

As to "Let him say what he wants, what's the harm in it?", well, the harm is that I'm being lied to. I don't like that. Makes me wonder what else he lies about. No one's perfect, but we should all strive to be honest in all our dealings and expect others to do the same.

Sport45 · July 26, 2010, 11:40 AM

What's next? Are we going to start challenging the group sizes posted on internet forums? Is the one shot that messes up a good group always a "flier" and no fault of the shooter?

sserdlihc · July 26, 2010, 11:41 AM

Quote:

As to "Let him say what he wants, what's the harm in it?", well, the harm is that I'm being lied to. I don't like that. Makes me wonder what else he lies about. No one's perfect, but we should all strive to be honest in all our dealings and expect others to do the same.

Exactly!

Quote:

The solution is simple - ask him how he determined the muzzle velocity. Does he have a chronograph? Would he shoot one across it while you witness?

Mal H, He doesn't have a chronograph. If my FIL still lived near me I would borrow his. When I asked him about if he had the loads chrono'd, He replied "yep". Nothing else.

**Unclenick** · July 26, 2010, 11:52 AM

He may not be intentionally lying. There have been a number of threads over the last year in which people were getting impossible velocity readings (either high or low, but more often high) because their chronographs were set up too close to the gun. This is a bigger problem with bigger chamberings. One fellow reported his .338 Lapua Mag required 18 feet to the chronograph before readings were believable.

One of the popular chronograph makers says 6 to 10 feet. That's awfully optimistic, and it probably screws up a lot of customer's readings. They just don't want people shooting their integral computer box. 15 feet is used by ammo makers and in magazine reports, I think because the it's a distance the military established long ago for their early portable electromagnetic chronographs. I try to stick with that unless I see reading errors or have a unit down range to collect velocity loss data for BC determinations.

sc928porsche · July 26, 2010, 12:10 PM

I like to set my chronograph out at 25'. Some of the stuff I fire carries a healthy muzzle blast. Im sure glad that Chrony uses telephone cord.

sserdlihc · July 26, 2010, 03:23 PM

Quote:

He may not be intentionally lying. There have been a number of threads over the last year in which people were getting impossible velocity readings (either high or low, but more often high) because their chronographs were set up too close to the gun. This is a bigger problem with bigger chamberings. One fellow reported his .338 Lapua Mag required 18 feet to the chronograph before readings were believable.

One of the popular chronograph makers says 6 to 10 feet. That's awfully optimistic, and it probably screws up a lot of customer's readings. They just don't want people shooting their integral computer box. 15 feet is used by ammo makers and in magazine reports, I think because the it's a distance the military established long ago for their early portable electromagnetic chronographs. I try to stick with that unless I see reading errors or have a unit down range to collect velocity loss data for BC determinations

.

I just have a feeling that the round hasn't been chrono'd. It is good information about the distance from the chronograph. I remember my FIL setting up his at 10 feet away.

Quote:

What's next? Are we going to start challenging the group sizes posted on internet forums? Is the one shot that messes up a good group always a "flier" and no fault of the shooter?

"We"...You got a mouse in your pocket?

For me, this is about my friend making a claim that his rifle round can produce "x" velocity with "a" powder and "b" bullet. That is why I asked:

Quote:

To my more seasoned reloaders, is the above reload possible?? Please enlighten.

If it is possible, I would like to duplicate that performance. But after alot of my own research and putting the question on this forum, I have my doubts.

hagar · July 26, 2010, 03:35 PM

I get 3100 with a 162 Amax and 64 grains of RL22 out of my 26 inch Sendero 7mm magnum, and I'm sure I can push it another grain or two. I was loading them much longer than standard for a 7mm, but it was clocked in AZ on a reasonably warm day over my chony which I normally put out 10-15 feet past the muzzle.

**Mal H** · July 26, 2010, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sport45

Are we going to start challenging the group sizes posted on internet forums?

That is a completely separate issue. Challenging group sizes is challenging a person's skill level, and that can be a sticky thing to get into. Giving a "can't be done" blanket statement to a skill, quite often turns out to be an unwise practice.

Essentially, we are challenging the physics of the statement. I am saying that it is very doubtful that the stated velocity can be achieved in that caliber with that bullet and that load of that particular powder.

sserdlihc · July 26, 2010, 05:36 PM

Quote:

I get 3100 with a 162 Amax and 64 grains of RL22 out of my 26 inch Sendero 7mm magnum, and I'm sure I can push it another grain or two. I was loading them much longer than standard for a 7mm, but it was clocked in AZ on a reasonably warm day over my chony which I normally put out 10-15 feet past the muzzle.

I am not familiar with Hornady AMAX bullets. With Nosler BT 160 grain with 60 grains of imr 4350 by the reloading table will get you 2998 ft per second. At that it is at MAX.

Quote:

I suspect that it's probably more like 3175, which became "3200", which became "3250" for dramatic effect.

You are probably right. He is no where near 3250.

TXJohn · July 26, 2010, 05:42 PM

Most of the people that I have seen who only care about f.p.s. would rather shoot a 1.75 moa at max than reduce their load and shoot a 1 moa or smaller at 100 or 200 yds. I also hear all the bs at my range but it seems that the one shouting the loudest never has a Chrony, so I just smile and keep my head down. Try not to get to upset with idiots so I don't get confused with being one of them.

July 25, 2010, 10:00 PM	#1
sserdlihc Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2008 Location: S.C. Posts: 1,390	I think my friend is full of it. I have been reloading for alot of years. I have decided to start hunting with my 7mm mag again. I have reloaded Sierra 150 grain bt's for years. I have decided to start reloading Nosler Ballistic tips. I am not asking for any pet loads or recipes, that is what my reloading manuals are for. A friend of mine that I hunt with reloads with Nosler Ballistic tips for his 7mm mag. He claims that he is getting 3250 ft per second with 63 grains of IMR 4350, with a 150 gr Ballistic tip! Instead of caling him a liar, which I am apt to do sometimes. I decided to investigate in alot of old Nosler manuals and I can't find anything close to 3250 feet per second for a 150 grain Ballistic Tip! I asked if he has ever had his loads chrono'd and his response has been "yep", but no proof has been shown to me. Funny thing is that he tried to give me a couple of his reloads to put thru my Ruger and I refused. No way will I run a reload of someone else's thru any of my rifles. I work up my loads. To my more seasoned reloaders, is the above reload possible?? Please enlighten. __________________ Familiarity breeds contempt, while rarity wins admiration. Aupleius If someone doesn't like you, that's their problem! Milton Childress

July 25, 2010, 10:21 PM	#3
DiscoRacing Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2008 Location: milton, wv Posts: 3,638	from IMR reloading data 150 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4350 .284" 3.270" 57.0 2786 52,400 PSI ------- 60.8 2931 59,400 PSI 57grains a powder at 2786fps 60.8 grains a powder at 2931fps I would highly doubt getting 63 grains of powder in the case...let alone the bullet not spinning in the air before that speed... I could be wrong tho. __________________ Desert Eagle Alliance Group Launcher Extraordinaire ______ ----Get Busy Live'n.....Or....Get Busy Die'n......Red -------They call me Dr. Bob,,,, I have a PhD in S&W

July 25, 2010, 10:30 PM	#4
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,454	Your friend may not be TOO crazy. QuickLoad, with minor tweaking, says that a 63.0gr charge of IMR4350 would produce approximately 3013 fps from a 24" barrel and 3126 fps from a 28" barrel. If your friend has a 28" barrel, 3250 would not be completely outside the realm of possibility. I suspect that it's probably more like 3175, which became "3200", which became "3250" for dramatic effect. However, even from a 24" barrel, there are a number of powders that QL thinks could reach 3200fps while staying within SAAMI specs. 4350 is not one of them, but the speed is not totally absurd. __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. -C.S. Lewis He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

July 25, 2010, 10:40 PM	#5
sserdlihc Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2008 Location: S.C. Posts: 1,390	I doubt it myself. After thinking about it now, think I will get one of his reload and break it down. Then I will confirm how much powder he is using. __________________ Familiarity breeds contempt, while rarity wins admiration. Aupleius If someone doesn't like you, that's their problem! Milton Childress

July 25, 2010, 10:46 PM	#6
sserdlihc Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2008 Location: S.C. Posts: 1,390	He is shooting a fairly old Ruger M77. I know the barrel isn't 28'' long. could be 26. It looks to be the same length as mine. __________________ Familiarity breeds contempt, while rarity wins admiration. Aupleius If someone doesn't like you, that's their problem! Milton Childress

July 25, 2010, 10:18 PM	#2
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Possible? ANYTHING is possible. I personally prefer the Nosler 160 in my 700 7mag and with 4350, the load is listed close to 3000, so a 150?? maybe....HOWEVER, I have found in MY gun that max loads never were accurate. I can get better groups slowing it down just a little to around 2800 and still have plenty of punch. YMMV

July 26, 2010, 12:26 AM	#7
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,762	Don't forget ambient temps. I had a .22-250 load that was pretty much maximum and on hot days the velocity went up enough that bullets "disappeared" on a regular basis and the ones that crossed the chrono were well above the forecast velocity. Most of my friends are full of it, that's what makes them interesting. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

July 26, 2010, 01:15 AM	#8
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 3,957	Let him say what he wants. What's the harm in it? Had a buddy in college that swore his Monte Carlo (with 305, I think) was clocked at 140 mph. Whatever... __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

July 26, 2010, 08:03 AM	#9
TheNatureBoy Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2007 Posts: 1,085	I've loaded for a 7mm rem mag with a 26 inch barrel using the same bullet and powder and didn't get anywhere close to 3250 fps. I'm outta town so I don't have my notes with me but I think I chronyed 2888 fps.

July 26, 2010, 10:45 AM	#14
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern VA Posts: 14,068	"I think my friend is full of it." Well, I think he is too. The solution is simple - ask him how he determined the muzzle velocity. Does he have a chronograph? Would he shoot one across it while you witness? I once caught some 18" crappies in Lake Lanier, GA. They started out at about 10", but have grown over the years. For some reason, bullet velocities tend to suffer from the same phenomenon.

July 26, 2010, 11:19 AM	#16
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,454	The question is not really one of if the 150gr bullet can do 3250 but more of if it could do it with the specific load data. That, is not possible without a 28" barrel or longer and even then it would be a high end anomaly. As to "Let him say what he wants, what's the harm in it?", well, the harm is that I'm being lied to. I don't like that. Makes me wonder what else he lies about. No one's perfect, but we should all strive to be honest in all our dealings and expect others to do the same. __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. -C.S. Lewis He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

July 26, 2010, 11:40 AM	#17
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 3,957	What's next? Are we going to start challenging the group sizes posted on internet forums? Is the one shot that messes up a good group always a "flier" and no fault of the shooter? __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

July 26, 2010, 11:52 AM	#19
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 9,136	He may not be intentionally lying. There have been a number of threads over the last year in which people were getting impossible velocity readings (either high or low, but more often high) because their chronographs were set up too close to the gun. This is a bigger problem with bigger chamberings. One fellow reported his .338 Lapua Mag required 18 feet to the chronograph before readings were believable. One of the popular chronograph makers says 6 to 10 feet. That's awfully optimistic, and it probably screws up a lot of customer's readings. They just don't want people shooting their integral computer box. 15 feet is used by ammo makers and in magazine reports, I think because the it's a distance the military established long ago for their early portable electromagnetic chronographs. I try to stick with that unless I see reading errors or have a unit down range to collect velocity loss data for BC determinations. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Patron Member Last edited by Unclenick; July 26, 2010 at 11:57 AM.

July 26, 2010, 12:10 PM	#20
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,312	I like to set my chronograph out at 25'. Some of the stuff I fire carries a healthy muzzle blast. Im sure glad that Chrony uses telephone cord. __________________ No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.

July 26, 2010, 03:35 PM	#22
hagar Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2000 Location: Colombia, SC Posts: 490	I get 3100 with a 162 Amax and 64 grains of RL22 out of my 26 inch Sendero 7mm magnum, and I'm sure I can push it another grain or two. I was loading them much longer than standard for a 7mm, but it was clocked in AZ on a reasonably warm day over my chony which I normally put out 10-15 feet past the muzzle. __________________ I don't have time for busy people

July 26, 2010, 05:42 PM	#25
TXJohn Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Location: Ft Worth TX Posts: 133	Most of the people that I have seen who only care about f.p.s. would rather shoot a 1.75 moa at max than reduce their load and shoot a 1 moa or smaller at 100 or 200 yds. I also hear all the bs at my range but it seems that the one shouting the loudest never has a Chrony, so I just smile and keep my head down. Try not to get to upset with idiots so I don't get confused with being one of them.