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View Poll Results: Would you sue someone who shot you no matter the circumstances or explanation?
Yes, I would sue no matter the circumstances or explanation. 36 28.35%
No, I would weigh the circumstances and explanation carefully. 91 71.65%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 25, 2010, 12:50 PM   #26
jgcoastie
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A few counter-points

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRiqui
I think one of the companies that advertises in the NRA magazines offers insurance against lawsuits resulting from the lawful use of a firearm. Can't remember the name, though.
Interesting. If you remember the name let me know please, I'm curious what the premium would be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by troy_mclure
so you are saying that if some moron pops off all 19rds towards a guy with a knife, and hits you in the spine, thats cool? no worries?
That's not what I said. It will heavily depend on the exact circumstances. No situation is identical and there is no way to cover all the possible scenarios here. If I am somehow disabled as a result, then I *may* try to recoup lost wages. Again, depends on the circumstances. If the guy truly saved my life, then I probably won't punish him for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
Well, one thing to consider is your medical expenses - because if you get shot, you are going to have some.
No, I wont. I am covered 100%. I am insured by TriCare & the U.S. Government, I don't really have to worry about healthcare, at least for the foreseeable future.

I understand that many forum members do not have the level of coverage that is provided to me; in that case, you'd have to do what's best for you.
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Old July 25, 2010, 12:54 PM   #27
usaign
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The insurance companies are going to do what they are going to do. However, I am not talking about the insurance companies. I mean where you go out to purposely hire an attorney for the specific purpose of filing a lawsuit in the courts. I dont mean filing a claim with the state or an insurance company. I dont mean the insurance company filing suit on your behalf.

Of course, someone is going to pay for your medical costs and then there will be an attempt to collect. However, I mean where you make a decision to file your own personal suit in a court.
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Old July 25, 2010, 12:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usaign
...Im certain the prosecutor would find a way to deal with the guy who pops off 19 rounds and certainly there would be litigation against him. Thats the acceptable way to deal with the matter.
But that still leaves you holding the bag, and footing the economic and emotional bill, for your life changing injuries.
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Old July 25, 2010, 01:21 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usaign
...Of course, someone is going to pay for your medical costs and then there will be an attempt to collect. However, I mean where you make a decision to file your own personal suit in a court.
Who?

[1] If you have medical insurance, that will pay for at least a portion of your immediate medical care, but you might have co-payments or deductibles that you will have to pay out of your own pocket. And if you can't keep working and/or continue to carry your medical insurance, there may not be any insurance around to pay for future care.

[2] If your employer has a good sick leave policy, you might continue to get your pay while you're off work. What happens when your sick leave runs out? What if you can't continue working at your regular job after you recover?

[3] Who's going to pay for any job retraining if you can't continue your regular line of work? Who's going to pay to make your home/car handicapped accessible?

[4] There are only a handful of folks around to pay your medical and other expenses:
  1. You -- first and foremost, your expenses are your responsibility.
  2. Your medical insurance -- to the extent it provides coverage and less your co-payments and deductibles;
  3. Your employer -- through any sick leave or other benefits, that is if there are any or until what there is runs out;
  4. Your family -- out of generosity, to the extent money is available;
  5. Us, the taxpayers -- to the extent benefits are available under various government programs like Medicaid or welfare; or
  6. The guy whose negligence turned your life upside down.
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Old July 25, 2010, 02:16 PM   #30
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"But that still leaves you holding the bag, and footing the economic and emotional bill, for your life changing injuries."

Life isnt fair my friend. Sometimes you are left holding the bag on certain things, but you just have to suck it up. I have been left holding the bag on many things in life, but there is nothing I can do further about it. There will be many times in life where you are left holding the bag. You may want to go against the system, but if you do, it will just lead to trouble. The only advice I can offer is to simply suck it up and drive on which was a common phrase in the Army.

There is a system in place and its best to follow the system. If you feel that justice hasnt been served by the system then you just have to suck it up and drive on. Life isnt fair in every situation. Tragedy and accidents will happen its just a matter of when.
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Old July 25, 2010, 02:23 PM   #31
sakeneko
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I can't imagine any general situation in which I *would* sue, without first considering the circumstances. That applies to a car accident, being shot, having my house burned down, etc. The right thing to do is always situation dependent.

If I were shot by somebody who had made a mistake without malice and without reckless disregard, I'd probably expect him to pay for the medical bills and perhaps reimburse my company for time I was off recuperating, but wouldn't want or ask for other compensatory damages. If he refused, or if his insurance company refused to do so without a lawsuit being filed, I'd probably sue. Otherwise, I see no reason to enrich a bunch of lawyers. (I might also decide not to ask for reimbursement of expenses if he or she was poor and it would cause undue hardship, but that would be on the same grounds that I might help out any neighbor who needed help.)

If I were shot by somebody who was guilty of malice or reckless disregard, and I was not absolutely sure that the criminal process would prevent them from doing it again to somebody else, I'd likely sue for a huge sum, and use that as leverage to demand a settlement that agreed to the perp giving up guns, not living in any location where guns were kept, or whatever else seemed necessary to protect people. I'd also include measures to aid enforcement of the agreement if the perp broke it. <ggrrr!>
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Old July 25, 2010, 02:25 PM   #32
ScottRiqui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usaign
...Im certain the prosecutor would find a way to deal with the guy who pops off 19 rounds and certainly there would be litigation against him. Thats the acceptable way to deal with the matter.
Well, the prosecutor will handle the criminal side of things if any charges are warranted, but are you seriously claiming you wouldn't at least try to recover your medical and rehabilitation costs from the shooter, by lawsuit if necessary? If so, that's not "sucking it up and driving on". Forum rules don't allow me to say what I really think it is.
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Old July 25, 2010, 02:31 PM   #33
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due to my job i would be out of work minimum till the skin is completely healed.

joint damage can, and lung damage will, completely disqualify me from my job.

which would cancel the limited health and disability insurance i have.

if its due to negligence of the shooter(wildly firing, excessive over penetration, etc...) ill definately sue, unless he covers the costs.

if his shot that hits me also saved my life, or i was just unfortunate enough to be in the exact and only position to take the round, i probably would not.
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Old July 25, 2010, 02:39 PM   #34
usaign
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Quite honestly, a lawsuit would take years to get through and you may not ever recover anything through that medium. No attorney works for free and they will charge you for all of their work...probably require a retainer. A trial attorney requires at least 700-1000 an hour for being in a courtroom which is why most of these things are settled up front. Then there is the process of collection on a settlement which is a whole other battle. Then there are the mental and emotional toll of the litigation process.

I would not expect to get any money out of anyone in regards to a lawsuit unless the person is part of a larger agency/company or has homeowner's insurance.

Most of the claims from 9/11 were settled by the 9/11 fund and that is because litigation would have been costly and untimely. Those who did file lawsuits did not have a trial until many years after. Some are still in the court system...some of the people who filed lawsuits as a result of 9/11 passed on before the suits even got to court.
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Old July 25, 2010, 02:45 PM   #35
Tennessee Gentleman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgcoastie
No, I wont. I am covered 100%. I am insured by TriCare & the U.S. Government, I don't really have to worry about healthcare, at least for the foreseeable future.
I too am covered by Tricare (retired) and you should know that they will DEFINITELY sue someone who negligently injures you. I know this from personal experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usaign
Life isnt fair my friend. Sometimes you are left holding the bag on certain things, but you just have to suck it up.
Which is exactly what I would tell the shooter who injured me as I sued him/her.

Look, if you are going to shoot another even in justifiable self defense and you injure an innocent third party then you are financially responsible for their injuries. That is our system and our way. If you cannot deal with that reality then you should not carry a gun.

Massad Ayoob published a story about a guy who was robbed (I think a photography shop?) and was shot then followed the guy outside and shot him while he was carjacking a lady and accidentally shot the lady. She sued and I have no problem with it. The guy was lucky to have gotten off since the thief was running away from him but I think he killed the guy.

If somebody (good guy or not) shot my wife or son in the act of defending themselves from another person I would sue them. They would have to suck it up. Not my family.
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Old July 25, 2010, 02:53 PM   #36
ScottRiqui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRiqui
I think one of the companies that advertises in the NRA magazines offers insurance against lawsuits resulting from the lawful use of a firearm. Can't remember the name, though.
Quote:
Interesting. If you remember the name let me know please, I'm curious what the premium would be.
This is the first hit that came up in a Google search for "NRA civil suit insurance" - There may be other companies that provide similar coverage. Their premiums are $165 or $254 per year, depending on the limits you choose. These prices also include their "Excess Personal Liability" coverage that covers you while hunting, trapping or shooting in competition or at a shooting range.

Even the higher limit ($250k) probably won't be enough to cover a judgement against you in the case of a civil suit where you're found liable, but it should be enough to cover your expenses if you're found not liable.

Last edited by ScottRiqui; July 25, 2010 at 03:04 PM.
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Old July 25, 2010, 03:30 PM   #37
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usaign
...Sometimes you are left holding the bag on certain things, but you just have to suck it up...
And that is fundamentally true.

There are a number of factors that need to be thoroughly evaluated and weighed when making a decision about whether or not to sue anyone for anything:
  • Liability -- are the facts and law such that there is a basis upon which to hold the defendant legally responsible. Legal liability doesn't necessarily attach to every bad outcome.
  • The magnitude of your losses -- can you otherwise bear them without undue, personal financial hardship.
  • Cost -- litigation is expensive. Is there a real likelihood that there will be enough money at the end of the line to warrant the expenses of litigation (attorney fees, filing fees, copying expenses, expert witness fees, private investigators, court reporters during discovery, etc.).
  • Does the defendant have any money -- unless the defendant has sufficient money or assets (like insurance) from which to pay any judgment, it's a waste of time suing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usaign
...A trial attorney requires at least 700-1000 an hour for being in a courtroom ....
A little on the high side. IME good trial attorneys are around $400 to $600 an hour -- but it has been a few years since I've had occasion to review any bills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usaign
...Then there is the process of collection on a settlement which is a whole other battle....
Collecting on a settlement should never be a problem. The suit doesn't get dismissed until the settlement check has been received, negotiated and the funds deposited in your lawyer's trust account. Collecting on a judgment, however, is another matter entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRiqui
...Even the higher limit ($250k) probably won't be enough to cover a judgement against you in the case of a civil suit where you're found liable, but it should be enough to cover your expenses if you're found not liable.
A primary reason to carry liability insurance is to assure there are funds available to cover you defense costs.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; July 25, 2010 at 03:36 PM.
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Old July 25, 2010, 03:33 PM   #38
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My inclination is not to sue, but it's impossible to determine without complete information on the circumstances.
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Old July 25, 2010, 04:09 PM   #39
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Quote:
I too am covered by Tricare (retired) and you should know that they will DEFINITELY sue someone who negligently injures you. I know this from personal experience.
That's their business. Tricare suing doesn't mean that I'm suing. Just means that my health expenses are covered and they can use whatever legal resources they deem necessary to accomplish that.
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Old July 25, 2010, 04:26 PM   #40
Tennessee Gentleman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgcoastie
Tricare suing doesn't mean that I'm suing.
Nevertheless they are being sued due to your using that system for your injuries. If you are injured by this shooter and can't speak or write due to your injuries and your parents or spouse sue on your behalf to pay your medical bills is that the same? If you know Tricare will collect from that shooter maybe you shouldn't use their care? Of course that is ridiculous as it is to say "well just suck it up" when you are negligently injured by another.
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Old July 25, 2010, 04:55 PM   #41
jgcoastie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Gentleman
If you know Tricare will collect from that shooter maybe you shouldn't use their care?
1) I do not presume to know what Tricare will or will not do. I assume they may try to recoup some funds from the guy, but unless he is significantly wealthy they will not waste their time. They don't stand a better chance of extracting money from an empty wallet than I do.

2) I do not have an option when it comes to choosing my health care provider; it comes with the Active Duty Military portion of my life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Gentleman
Of course that is ridiculous as it is to say "well just suck it up" when you are negligently injured by another.
I don't believe I said anything of the sort....
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Old July 25, 2010, 05:09 PM   #42
.22lr
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Silly question

What makes the shooter the "good guy"? If i have been injured by someone's negligence, then I will be compensated for that injury and any impacts to my life it may cause.

Its not my fault that I was struck by an errant bullet. That responsibility lies with the shooter. If I am the shooter, that responsibility lies with me.

Life isn't fair. Deadly force incidents are not clean. Every bullet you fire has a lawyer attached. Something to consider.

And, i really can't see viewing the guy who shot me at the "good guy". He's the jerk who wasn't sure of his target and what was beyond it... me.


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Old July 25, 2010, 05:11 PM   #43
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Getting shot in the process of saving me is one thing. Getting shot when I am not even involved in the situation is something completely different.
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Old July 25, 2010, 05:25 PM   #44
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Quote:
I do not presume to know what Tricare will or will not do. I assume they may try to recoup some funds from the guy, but unless he is significantly wealthy they will not waste their time. They don't stand a better chance of extracting money from an empty wallet than I do.
Hopefully you don't have any lasting debilitating injuries. Even if the shooter were Bill Gates, TRICARE isn't going to attempt to recover *anything* beyond your immediate treatment and enough aftercare to last until you're medically retired and collecting your pitiful monthly disability payments. After that, you're the VA's problem.

TRICARE doesn't give a rat's rump about your lost earnings or anything that happens after the hospital bill's paid - hope you don't, either.
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Old July 25, 2010, 05:29 PM   #45
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Lincoln was wrong

I took my CCW class yesterday, great class by a cop and a lawyer. I've never sued anyone and would likely require a pretty stiff case to actually consider it.

The gist from the class regarding your firing and hitting someone (we're in AZ), keep your mouth shut, assume you're going to get sued, keep your mouth shut, and also assume you will go to jail until it gets worked out, and keep your mouth shut. He then noted that on the civil side, it's pretty easy to avoid paying any money to a successful plaintiff, even if you loose the case. (Obviously assumes a lawyer).

Take Bernie Goetz as an example from 2 decades ago: $43M award against him, he declared bankruptcy, and is still living in NY. Even though a federal judge said bankruptcy couldn't discharge the award, he's paid nothing, and likely never will.

When asked several years ago about how much he had paid to one of the guys he shot he said "I don't think I've paid a penny on that", 20 years after the fact. Unless there's an offer of compensation, it may be a waste of your time and harbor future ill will.

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Old July 25, 2010, 05:43 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgcoastie
I do not presume to know what Tricare will or will not do.
I've just told you what they will do. They will try to collect and they have means at their disposal to do such much better that you or I. Of course collection can be difficult but the OP didn't specify whether the shooter was wealthy or not so speculation there is not helpful.

BTW I wouldn't be so all fired reliant on Tricare either. As someone who has been on it for over 30 years I will tell you there is a WHOLE lot they will not cover or only partially cover. If you don't sue to get the difference you could yourself be bankrupt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgcoastie
I don't believe I said anything of the sort....
Didn't say you did say that
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Old July 25, 2010, 05:47 PM   #47
usaign
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Let me put it this way. There is nothing you will be able to do to make yourself completely "whole" again after an incident. You can sue, you can jump up and down and turn blue. A lawsuit is an unknown factor where the outcome is uncertain and often untimely...very untimely where you are waiting a few years for the outcome.

It doesnt matter if your bills are paid by insurance or through a lawsuit or not paid at all. You will never be "whole" again. The best thing to do is not get into the situation in the first place, but if you do get into such a situation, then you have to man up. I can guarantee you if you are shot, the last thing you will be thinking about is the money. Maybe your family might be thinking $$$, but you will just be glad that you made it through and can still breathe.

If I lived to talk about being shot, then frankly I would not care if the hospital or doctors ever got paid or who paid the bills. I would be glad to be alive.
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Old July 25, 2010, 06:03 PM   #48
Tennessee Gentleman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usaign
It doesnt matter if your bills are paid by insurance or through a lawsuit or not paid at all. You will never be "whole" again...
Maybe but that is not the question that was asked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usaign
If I lived to talk about being shot, then frankly I would not care if the hospital or doctors ever got paid or who paid the bills. I would be glad to be alive.
Couldn't disagree more. There are fates far worse than death and I have seen those. You'll care when you are bankrupt who pays those bills and yes you might get screwed anyway but if I could get money from the person whose negligence caused my injury I sure would and the fact that he/she was defending themselves would make no never mind to me.
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Old July 25, 2010, 06:19 PM   #49
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Quote:
What makes the shooter the "good guy"? If i have been injured by someone's negligence, then I will be compensated for that injury and any impacts to my life it may cause.
That speaks volumes right there. I sit in a crowded restaurant and think to myself, my gun is not going to help here, there is too much risk of hitting the wrong person with a stray bullet that I am responsible for if it leaves me gun. If I am at McDonalds and a creep starts executing people, well enough said, what choice do you have, you will be next. But an armed robbery with dozens of people potentially in the line of fire, just open your wallet deep and wide my friends if you hit an innocent bystander in such a situation.

Would they hold a police officer liable if they killed innocent people while apprehending someone for robbery? You betcha. It should be a sobering thought to consider who might be injured and remember that a .357 round can go through several walls before it stops. It really begins to narrow when and where you can consider using the weapon in self defense. You have a right to defend your life but not at the danger of someone else that is equally innocent. I have been a little taken back by some of the cavalier responses to this thread.
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Old July 25, 2010, 06:33 PM   #50
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Let's say you are mamed for life by the good guy's shot and can never earn a living again. And you have a family to support.

Now we are talking survival. So you think about that before saying you won't sue.

As for me, yes the circumstances will matter, but I hope I'm only nicked.

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