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Old July 21, 2010, 08:30 AM   #1
LordofWar
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Friend kidnapped last night

A friend who had gone out with his wife & kid for dinner last night was kidnapped. Four guys took him & left his family on the road. Late at night they called for ransom asking for PKR 2.5 Million ($30,000 USD).

Police was notified and deal was struck with the kidnappers. We went to the designated place (a remote gas station on the city's outskirts) with the ransom. Friends brother went in with the ransom and we stayed behind. Before the exchange was about to take place the kidnappers felt something fishy and took off. We along with the police had blocked all routes and their car was rammed and it climb a mud hill. The friend jumped out of the car but was shot by the abducters. As soon as our friend jumped out of the car the police asked his name and he shouted it and they took him to safety. The kidnappers shot back at the police but the police answered back with 400+ rounds of 7.62x25, 9mm, 7.62x39 & 7.62x51 automatic fire.

Two died on spot and one managed to run away as it was dark but was later found dead close by.

Friend was shot twice with 7.62x25mm in his right shoulder and in the leg. He's undergoing surgery right now but he is safe.

When he was abducted he was carrying a handgun but didnt use it as there were four of them and he feared for his wife & child.

Will upload pictures etc tomorrow. The car with in excess of 400 .30 calibre rounds is a sight!

http://pakistancriminalrecords.com/2...d-2-abductors/
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Old July 21, 2010, 08:51 AM   #2
teeroux
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Unusual situation on the firing line, but if you don't ask a question or start a disscussion into the tactics of a specific event the mods are gonna close this.

Anyway he is alive and they are dead, can't ask for a whole lot more in a situation like that.
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Old July 21, 2010, 08:55 AM   #3
Mosinnagant
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400 plus rounds of .30cal

It is very much over kill to use 400 plus rounds of .30cal ammo.............
But as long as it gets the job done I suppose...................
But it is a good thing your friend is safe.
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Old July 21, 2010, 09:04 AM   #4
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HOLY...CR*P! Glad to hear he is alive, sorry to hear about the injuries, and good to know the bad guys are all dead!
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Old July 21, 2010, 09:59 AM   #5
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Glad to hear he will be fine. So, firearm related question, to keep it going, what was he carrying, and was it possible to get his wife armed as well, to help even the odds?
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Old July 21, 2010, 11:10 AM   #6
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I think the "tactic" of using some much overwhelming firepower helps to send a message to criminals. Shows that the cops aren't playing around about serious crime in a warzone.
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Old July 21, 2010, 11:44 AM   #7
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You folks that are commenting on "overkill" may not have noticed that this was Pakistan. In that area of the world, it would not be surprising to find every person in that car packing multiple fully automatic weapons, some explosives, maybe even an RPG or similar device. They are, as you would note, criminals, and the weapons of that sort are very easily obtained.

The idea of getting the victim free and then opening up on the vehicle seems to me to be the only safe way to stop what would have most likely been heavily armed kidnappers/assassins from either escaping, or creating a movable war zone on urban streets.

It wasn't that long ago that even in the USA, you found such tactics being used to stop the most dangerous criminals.

I honestly see no practical difference between a firestorm of small arms fire into the car, and a single sniper round to the head, except that the sniper round was impossible to achieve, and the automatic weapons fire was the best way to guarantee lethal hits.

Maybe the objection is actually more about killing these guys after they dumped the hostage and attempted flight, but even so, they still shot back.
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Old July 21, 2010, 11:57 AM   #8
OldMarksman
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Quote:
It is very much over kill to use 400 plus rounds of .30cal ammo.............
Impossible to judge, IMHO.

As briandg points out, this didn't happen in Shaker Heights.

No Miranda, probably no insistence of minimal force.

Reminds one of the end of Bonnie and Clyde, but in this case, the police were actually fired upon.
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Old July 21, 2010, 12:06 PM   #9
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Kinda like what happened to Bonnie and Clyde.
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Old July 21, 2010, 12:15 PM   #10
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was the 7.62x25 from tok's or cz52's??
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Old July 21, 2010, 12:57 PM   #11
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anyone recall that incident where the SWAT team (i think it was SWAT) shot and armed criminal over 60 times... and when they were tried the prosecutor asked the SWAT team leader why he shot the guy over 60 times and he answered "because we ran out of bullets"??

that's what this reminds me of

More objectively, however, I don't see any problem with using that volume of fire to suppress and kill the guys shooting at you.
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Old July 21, 2010, 01:27 PM   #12
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Hope your friend's shoulder isn't too torn up, bad place to get hit. This is about tactics. bad guys "had the drop" on him and he had his family. Sometimes if you have it you shouldn't use it. Good job on the cops filling the vehicle with extra weight, no time to play around and HOPE the bad guys don't shoot back.
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Old July 21, 2010, 01:35 PM   #13
TylerD45ACP
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Yea definitley, hit those kidnappers up with all the firepower you can. Remember they almost took a Father away from his Wife and Child for good. I am very glad your friend is "ok" and hope that he has a speedy recovery. By the way, I don't know how he restrained himself not to use his firearm which was probably smart because of his wife and child. However, I think I would have started firing anyway and try to thwart it, which probably wouldn't of ended well because of 4 armed men but I could not allow myself to be kidnapped I would have to fire.
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Old July 21, 2010, 01:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
DanTheMan: ..shot and armed criminal over 60 times..
http://crime.about.com/b/2006/10/02/...t-68-times.htm

A Florida gunman, who shot and killed an officer and his police dog, was shot at 110 times and hit 68 times when SWAT team members found him the following day hiding in the woods under a tree trunk and he refused to show his hands. Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd said the fugitive would have been shot more, but the SWAT team ran out of bullets. Angilo Freeland (pictured), 27, a suspected drug dealer, fled from police after he was pulled over in a routine traffic stop by Deputy Douglas Speirs. The deputy called for back-up and Deputy Vernon Matthew Williams answered the call with his police dog.

As they followed the suspect into the woods there was a "burst of gunfire" and Deputy Williams and his dog were killed and Speirs was wounded in the leg. An autopsy report revealed that Williams, 39, was shot eight times. He was shot once a close range behind his right year and again in his right temple.

After a massive manhunt for the fugitive through the night, a SWAT team surrounded Freeland in a thickly wooded area hiding under a fallen tree. When he failed to show the officers both hands and they spotted a handgun in one of his hands, they opened fire. Freeland's autopsy showed that he was shot 68 times. An investigation of the scene revealed that police fired 110 rounds.

"That's all the bullets we had, or we would have shot him more," Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd told reporters.
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Old July 21, 2010, 03:04 PM   #15
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Question?

Does this scenario happen enough over there, Sub-continent, to require the use of body-guard and escort type employment? If so what are the requirements or schools the employers prefer?
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Old July 21, 2010, 03:06 PM   #16
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kaylorinhi Does this scenario happen enough over there, Sub-continent, to require the use of body-guard and escort type employment? If so what are the requirements or schools the employers prefer?
Check out Triple Canopy for a good example of what I believe you are asking about. Specifically their Protective Services.

http://www.triplecanopy.com/triplecanopy/en/home/
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Old July 21, 2010, 03:18 PM   #17
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Reminds one of the end of Bonnie and Clyde, but in this case, the police were actually fired upon.
They probably did fire on the posse, but a warp in space-time caused all evidence of it to disappear into the future.

I have evidence to support this.

Ten years ago, a local farmer was charged with poaching. he testified in court that he had not fired the shot that killed the deer, and that it just "came out of nowhere."

It actually came out of a tiny wormhole opened into space time by the fusillade of heavy metals.
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Old July 21, 2010, 08:50 PM   #18
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Genuinely curious. What types of weapons were used that chambered 7.62x25? Police or Bad Guys.

Quote:
It is very much over kill to use 400 plus rounds of .30cal ammo
Remember, the OP said it was dark. Under darkness, when the other side is still shooting you shoot back until they aren't shooting anymore.
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Old July 21, 2010, 09:57 PM   #19
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In that area of the world, it would not be surprising to find every person in that car packing multiple fully automatic weapons, some explosives, maybe even an RPG or similar device. They are, as you would note, criminals, and the weapons of that sort are very easily obtained.
That's quite a nice little picture you've painted there buddy. Ever lived in Pakistan? Or interacted with the people around here? Or I don't know, did a survey on the criminals around here?

Thought so ...

Criminals with RPG's and explosives? Sorry buddy, doesn't happen.

Quote:
Genuinely curious. What types of weapons were used that chambered 7.62x25? Police or Bad Guys.
They were TT-30 variants. Some made locally, some foreign (China mostly) made. No such thing as a CZ-52 around here. Very rare but if you put up an order, a skilled gunsmith would make you one in 3 days. Yes, from scratch.
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Old July 21, 2010, 10:33 PM   #20
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Interesting. How popular is the 7.62x25 over there? Is it popular because it's cheap and available or is it popular for some other reason?
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Old July 21, 2010, 10:46 PM   #21
Anthrax
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Crosshair;

The 7.62x25 is the most popular handgun round over here. Personally, I'm not much of a fan but apparently the influx of Tok started when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. After they left, the gunsmiths along the Afghan border started mass producing the Tokarev simply because previously, the more popular handgun rounds were .22lr, .38 and .32. All of them were obviously less potent than the Tokarev and the 7.62x25 round brought along a semi-auto handgun format with it. Therefore, you got a powerful round with 8 shot magazines. Something very different than the .32 and .38 service revolvers.

Its been popular ever since. You get a TT-30 variant around here for as less as 50$ and as high as 200-300$. The ammo is quite cheap as well. But the 9mm is now the standard handgun round for the LEA's and Military here and even the people are shifting to the 9mm.

I own a Tokarev variant too, btw. It's a Type-54 made by China for their military. Comes with an external safety.
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Old July 22, 2010, 02:14 AM   #22
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LOW,
I just read that story on the news paper. Didn't possibly know that the businessman was your friend. I am glad he is safe now.

IMO, The kidnapping was not random. The family that guy belongs to is a well known name with multiple businesses etc. The kidnapping must have been planned thoroughly. One better keep a low profile here as kidnappings have been sky rocketed in last 2-3 years.

The guy was armed. I can safely assume he was not trained even with the level of training an average CCW holder in USA has. So what made him not to use his firearm : the lack of training or the fear for his family? LOW might tell us about it.

@Anthrax. Buddy, Can't really agree with you on RPG part. Ever been to Lyari in Karachi?
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Old July 22, 2010, 08:06 AM   #23
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Wow. Glad to hear your friend is safe. He really should consider an armored car if he is the high profile business type. While they are expensive, his safety and his family's safety should be more than enough to justify the investment.

I'm sure your friend made the right decision when he decided not to resist. One on four odds is pretty bad. If he pulled his handgun, there is a good chance they would have all been killed. Even if his wife was armed (as suggested by armoredman), it would have been a stupid decision to resist against 4 armed attackers. Do most kidnappings result in the abductee being returned safely once the ransom is paid? If so, compliance is the best option and then let the cops follow the bad guys once the person is safe.
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Old July 22, 2010, 08:29 AM   #24
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LordofWar: I'm glad to hear that your friend was rescued and returned to his family. You live in a difficult place, and I hope you and yours can remain safe.

I hate to sound like a ghoul.....but, what kind of damage did the 7.62x25 do to your friend's shoulder and leg? We hear much about the Tok round being ineffective due to it's size and penetration. I'd like to hear about his injuries and the Tok's effect on tissue.

Thank you in advance....stay safe....
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Old July 22, 2010, 11:44 AM   #25
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LordofWar, where did the kidnappers approach your friend and his family? Was he driving or walking? Was it a "bad" neighbourhood (for PK)?
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