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Old July 15, 2010, 05:11 PM   #1
usaign
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The Ultimate Combat Shotgun - The AA-12...does any army now use it?

I just saw the new Predator movie and the main character's weapon is the AA-12. It is an auto-shotgun with a 32 round drum that can fire off 5 shells in 1 second with NO RECOIL. The gun itself requires NO CLEANING and is 100% reliable under ALL CONDITIONS.

In reading on the internet, there are new 19mm HE/Frag/AP rounds that have been developed for it with a range of 200 meters.

http://www.defensereview.com/auto-as...weapon-system/

So my question is does any country's army use the AA-12? The big downfall is weight. 16 lbs fully loaded vs an M16 which is 8 lbs fully loaded. Each drum of ammo weighs in at 4.5 lbs where as 1 magazine of M16 ammo weighs in at 1 lb.

I cant see the AA-12 being used as a patrol weapon because of the weight.
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Old July 15, 2010, 05:36 PM   #2
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i dont know if any country uses it right now but i agree with you, it is too heavy. a shotgun is an extremely specialized weapon. The US military for the most part only uses them for door breaching (as a breaching tool, not as a weapon)

the idea of carrying around a 16 pound shotgun does not make a ton of sense. I would rather have another m249 in a squad.

as to the explosive rounds, they dont really do anything you cant already do with a 203, and the 203 is much lighter.
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Old July 15, 2010, 06:25 PM   #3
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I didn't think 32 round drum existed... I thought it was 8 or 20 rounds only. The explosive round is called a FRAG-12.

Also, since the change of responsibility in Iraq, shotguns are becoming more common due to the ability to use less-lethal ammunition. I had to carry it a couple of times, but generally I lucked out and kept my M4.
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Old July 15, 2010, 09:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
The gun itself requires NO CLEANING and is 100% reliable under ALL CONDITIONS.
For some reason I doubt this. Shotguns will run a long time without needing much cleaning, but at some point you do need to remove the crud. Furthermore, "ALL" is a big word. I'm certain there's some conditions where the gun will choke, even if it's the simple "right when you need it the most" application of Murphy.
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Old July 15, 2010, 09:54 PM   #5
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For some reason I doubt this. Shotguns will run a long time without needing much cleaning, but at some point you do need to remove the crud.
"No cleaning" is what the manufacturer says. The designer says it needs to be cleaned after 10,000 rounds.
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Old July 15, 2010, 11:16 PM   #6
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Yep, they offer it with a 32 round drum.

In the Predator movie, Royce has a spare drum he wears on his lower back. I doubt you would be able to reload quickly with a spare drum. You run out of ammo so you fumble around with both drums. Probably, you would empty the drum and then switch to box-like magazines for faster reloading dumping the drum on the ground. Thats what they did with the Thompson from the books I read.

I researched further and there was a similar weapon that sold to some Asian countries which is the USAS-12:

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh16-e.htm

I also found a remote turrent system that uses the AA-12, but this doesnt make much sense. If you feel the need to use the turret system to defend the vehicle, then you will probably need a lot more ammo then the two drums can carry. They should have modified the aa-12s for extra capacity somehow...at least 100 round capacity for each.

http://www.defensereview.com/hammer-...nned-vehicles/
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Old July 16, 2010, 01:19 AM   #7
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This post makes me laff...

FUTURE WEAPONS anyone?

Auto shotties aren't exactly new.
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Old July 16, 2010, 05:35 AM   #8
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The impression I get is that militaries generally aren't terribly interested in shotguns as much as other weapons systems, and that use tends to be limited to more door breaching and riot control, which more ordinary shotguns work well enough for.

The other part is that as far as weapons go, the AA-12 in it's current incarnation is basically brand new.
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Old July 16, 2010, 06:51 AM   #9
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I wish all of our enemies carried shotguns. They'd be flopping and twitching in the sand hundreds of meters before they were close enough to engage.

As a combat weapon, shotguns have very limited uses. If I ever had to rely on a shotgun as my weapon it would not be one with an enormous, bulky drum. The idea of a super shotgun is right out of video games and adolescent zombie fantasies.

No matter what the sales pitch is, "...5 shells in 1 second with NO RECOIL. The gun itself requires NO CLEANING and is 100% reliable under ALL CONDITIONS" is a BS.

The capabilities of a weapon in a movie or video game often has nothing to do with reality.

Last edited by ISC; July 16, 2010 at 06:57 AM.
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Old July 19, 2010, 02:46 PM   #10
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The 19mm Armor Piercing/High Explosive round seems to make sense. The M203 wouldnt be able to have the same effect because its a low speed round . Basically, you fire the 19mm round at a wall, it pierces the wall and then it explodes. Therefore, that would be perfect for situations where someone is barricaded in a house.

3-4 of these rounds shot at once within a second into a wall would certainly dazzle and confuse the people inside if not seriously injure or kill them.

Lets say the target was a vehicle then this would certainly be a very effective weapon with the 19mm AP/HE round. The round pierces through the vehicle and then explodes inside. If you shoot it at the engine, then it only explodes when inside the engine compartment doing the maximum damage.

Now lets also take into consideration the steel slugs that are widely available for shotguns. Imagine 5 slugs fired within a second. That would be perfect for stopping vehicles or truly defeating targets hidden inside.

So I think this weapon would be good for a sentry tasked with stopping vehicles at a gate or someone who is clearing houses.
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Old July 19, 2010, 09:40 PM   #11
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Do you have stock in the company or something?

You seem real determined to convince people it's not a novelty item. The new movie "Predators" is another (assumedly crappy) sequel in the franchise. Can the people in Hollywood not just make a cool movie (the original) and leave it alone?
Imagine the casting meeting for Predator II

Who should do the sequel?

Danny Glover!

The comic relief from Lethal Weapon.....?

Yeah, he's totally WAY TOUGHER than Carl Weathers, Arnold Schwarzenegger, (REAL-life USN SEAL) Jesse Ventura and a bunch of other
guys!

What about Chuck Norris or Sylvester Stallone instead?

Absolutely NOT. Trust me. Danny Glover is THE guy for the role.

Well......okay.....but you HAVE to do that Black&Decker sawblade fight we talked about, after watching This Old House while getting stoned.

Deal!

Nobody wants to lug around a goofy AA12 or similar shotgun in combat. Of course there's no recoil! A simple .22lr rifle doesn't either. (That's what happens when you fire a round that is so relatively light compared to the firing
platform.)

However, if you just MUST have an auto-loading shotgun then buy a Saiga-12. It's based on the AK platform. If you dispute the DECADES proven reliability of that design...... I give up.

It's a movie. It's not real.

-EdInk

P.S. Those video games on X-box aren't bases on actual ballastics and reality either. Just because "You can take a grenade to the face...like a REAL man!" when playing Medal of Honor; doesn't mean you should try it at home.
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Old July 19, 2010, 09:44 PM   #12
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BTW an M249 (that weighs less and has higher capacity) will stop a car and clear a room better and faster than an AA12.

I think? Perhaps a veteran would like to verify?

Thank You.
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Old July 19, 2010, 10:43 PM   #13
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Ed, the M249 wouldn't be able to clear more effectively than an AA-12. A shotgun is an ideal weapon for clearing.
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Old July 19, 2010, 11:44 PM   #14
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I was talking about "clearing a bunch of guys through a wall" like the T infatuated OP suggested.
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Old July 20, 2010, 01:50 AM   #15
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If I were going to be shooting a bunch of guys through a wall, I think I'd want an HK21, belt fed 7.62x51.
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Old July 20, 2010, 02:26 AM   #16
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ADB, i think this is focusing on US armament... so a 240B/G or a M60 incarnation would be on spot.
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Old July 20, 2010, 06:09 AM   #17
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The only people that like HK21's have never shot anything else to compare it to(or never shot one ) lol ....a belt fed G3 isnt my idea of a ultimate anything.(and I've been to the HK class on it)
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Old July 20, 2010, 07:00 AM   #18
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I lost a small percentage of my IQ by reading this thread.
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Old July 20, 2010, 08:19 PM   #19
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I think it would be fun to shoot...

I like it a lot but I don't really see where it would be that useful in a military situation
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Old July 21, 2010, 09:04 AM   #20
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2 words....

Duck hunt


Level 10 does not stand a chance
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Old July 21, 2010, 01:02 PM   #21
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neither does your tv...
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Old July 21, 2010, 02:26 PM   #22
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The AA12 seems to be the answer to a question no one in the real world is asking.

With one full mag, the weight approaches 15 lbs. That's the equivalent of an M4 and 100 rounds. My hunch is the M4 is a bit faster to handle also.

Much as I like shotguns, for the military a good rifle is almost always the better choice....
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Old July 23, 2010, 05:26 PM   #23
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Doesn't the military have a buckshot round for those 40mm revolving grenade launchers? It'd make more sense than a 15+lb 12ga. shotgun...and you could use HE grenades for room-clearing.....
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Old July 23, 2010, 07:06 PM   #24
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If anyone is interested, the AA 12 shotgun was featured on the show "locked 'n Loaded." It was the last shotgun featured on the epsiode "shotguns". Pretty cool!!!

-George
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Old July 23, 2010, 07:23 PM   #25
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Its a beastly gun, to say the least.
I just picked up a legal clone. Saiga 12.
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