The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 20, 2010, 12:14 PM   #1
DanThaMan1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 395
Light Recoil 12 ga Ammunition

Does anyone know how shells like these work?

I recall reading somewhere that reduced recoil shells have identical terminal ballistics to regular kickers. I simply don't see how this is possible while keeping Newton's third lawn in mind: If the reaction is less forceful (recoil less extreme), then the action (force of shot) must also be less forceful.

Do they use powder which burns differently? Do they simply use less powder? Does it have something to do with the load being fired?

And lastly, the reason I am asking all of these questions about this type of ammo is because I would love to use it as a HD load, but I am fearful that I am losing some of the 12 ga's power by switching to them. What does TFL recommend?
__________________
Amateurs think equipment,
Students think techniques,
Experts think tactics.
DanThaMan1776 is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 12:57 PM   #2
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Quote:
Muzzle Velocity: 1145 fps
(from Midway)

They go slower, so they have less recoil
oneounceload is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 01:06 PM   #3
DanThaMan1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 395
How much difference does roughly 200 fps have on buckshot terminally?
__________________
Amateurs think equipment,
Students think techniques,
Experts think tactics.
DanThaMan1776 is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 05:17 PM   #4
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 5,119
There's a definite and measurable energy loss with the reduced velocity.
But, at the distances in a home defense situation, it's doubtful there is any real world difference.
The ability to do quick follow up shots, due to more manageable recoil, should make up for any energy losses.
g.willikers is offline  
Old July 22, 2010, 05:35 PM   #5
Old Guard Dog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: SE PA
Posts: 101
I load 2 1/4" shells with a reduced charge, with 1 oz of 00 buck or #4 buck. They run 900 fps, and are only effective for HD ranges. They lose energy pretty fast past 25 or 30'. BUT, the noise is less, the recoil is low, and you can get an extra one in the magazine. Depends on what you want to do with the load.
Old Guard Dog is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 06:54 AM   #6
2afreedom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 29, 2007
Location: Southern by the Grace of God
Posts: 222
You lose a little velocity with the reduced recoil rounds but at across the room distances I don't think it will make much difference in effectiveness. Another advantage to reduced recoil rounds is they seem to hold a tighter pattern. A good reduced recoil buckshot is the Federal brand; at home defense ranges it will pretty much make one big hole in the target.
2afreedom is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 07:46 AM   #7
Esteban32696
Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Location: Fl.
Posts: 80
I have shot some & like them fine. I trust them as well.
Esteban32696 is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 07:55 AM   #8
popeyespappy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2008
Posts: 337
The Federal low recoil is what is sitting in my 870.
popeyespappy is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 08:25 AM   #9
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 5,354
Low recoil 00 buck is the way to go for SD .Like any ammo make sure it works in your gun !!
On a recent tv show there was a Federal engineer who explained the development of their 'snow goose load'. Yes they make a round specifically for snow geese. They carefully adjust the burning rate of the powder , the power [brissance] of the primer and the shot charge to get exactly the properties they want ! You won't be able to match that by handloading I'll bet !
__________________
And Watson , bring your revolver !
mete is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 08:52 AM   #10
rantingredneck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,728
Quote:
They go slower, so they have less recoil
Yep, and some of them also have 8 pellets instead of 9.
__________________
NRA Member
NC Hunter's Education Instructor

PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)
rantingredneck is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 09:04 AM   #11
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Recoil is a function of velocity of the payload, weight of the gun, and the mass of the ejecta (wad, powder, shot). Increase the weight of the gun, or reduce the other two, and recoil goes down
oneounceload is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 12:50 PM   #12
zippy13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by OP
Do they use powder which burns differently? Do they simply use less powder? Does it have something to do with the load being fired?
Yes, sometimes and yes.

My friend, oneounceload, is over simplifying the explanation just a little. Most folks look at recoil numbers in just the same way because it's easier to quantify without the complex data from the internal ballistics (what happens before the load clears the muzzle).

Given an equal amount of energy to be resisted by the shooter, the perceived recoil (kick) can be reduced in two ways: (1) extend the reaction area over a greater portion of the shooter's body (lowering the total unit stress), and (2) extend the duration of the even (buffering -- lowering the instantaneous unit stress). The first factor explains why a proper fitting gun is so important, and the second factor explains why elastic recoil pads work. The human body is much more sensitive to slight changes recoil unit stress than we generally realize.

It's easiest to look at the action/reaction numbers in terms of the instant the ejecta clears the muzzle. In reality, the recoil event starts when the primer ignites. Two different powders may deliver the load out of the muzzle at the same velocity; but, their different burning rates achieve the velocity quite differently. Higher pressure loads accelerate the payload to muzzle velocity quicker than low pressure loads. So, they result in a shorter internal ballistic event. The powder charge that takes the longest to accelerate the load to muzzle velocity will give the lowest kick from the internal ballistics portion of the recoil event. [There's other factors from the internal ballistics that have lessor effects on the event, different powder charges contribute slightly different masses to the ejecta and different jet effects.] Rest assured, the ammunition manufacturers are well aware of the internal ballistics's contribution to recoil when making lite ammo.

If you are in doubt and you're a reloader, try an experiment using the same components, except for differing powders: Select two different powder charges with the same muzzle velocity from the data tables. One with (or close to) the highest pressure and the other with (or close to) the lowest pressure. Then do a blind test to see if you can differentiate between the loads based on their kick. The recoil energy from the ejecta will be constant; however the kick from the brief moment that the load is in the barrel will differ. Some may notice a significant difference, others may not.
zippy13 is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 03:30 PM   #13
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Zippy's explanation is a good one, but he is also mixing in actual and perceived, and that is where many get confused..........there are 2 recoils......the real one that is the ACTUAL recoil, a calculation of what I mentioned above, and then there is the PERCEIVED or FELT recoil - this version is the one that fit, recoil pads, stock dimensions, and other factors that most folks think about and talk about mention. It may or may not reduce the ACTUAL, but a good fit, use of a gas action, good recoil pad, etc, will reduce the perceived/felt recoil. High actual recoil, even if your gun fits and you seem to not feel it,......will result in surgery down the road because recoil damage, like hearing damage, is a cumulative situation. It IS a serious situation that many dismiss, especially the folks shooting the hardest shells - slugs and buckshot - and it is not to be dismissed lightly.
oneounceload is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 04:32 PM   #14
zippy13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 6,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneounceload
High actual recoil, even if your gun fits and you seem to not feel it,......will result in surgery down the road because recoil damage, like hearing damage, is a cumulative situation. It IS a serious situation that many dismiss, especially the folks shooting the hardest shells - slugs and buckshot - and it is not to be dismissed lightly.
Amen!
Another reason to use a heavier O/U or SxS instead of a stick gun and not to use a hotter load that the target requires. The more you shoot the more important this becomes. If the truth be known, I suspect there's a lot more hearing lost and damaged shoulders than we're aware of.
zippy13 is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 04:43 PM   #15
rantingredneck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,728
Quote:
I suspect there's a lot more hearing lost and damaged shoulders than we're aware of.
"Whassat you say there? Can't hear ya! I'd turn my hearing aid up but my arm's in a sling and I can't reach up and adjust it!"

Yeah, guilty on both counts here...........
__________________
NRA Member
NC Hunter's Education Instructor

PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)
rantingredneck is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 05:45 PM   #16
Rampant_Colt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 1,478
I'm currently using W-W reduced recoil 00 buckshot and Fiocchi RR 00 buck, and i highly doubt the bad guy would be able to tell the difference between getting hit with a 1350 FPS or 1150 FPS 9-pellet 00 buckshot load. The best part about using low-recoil BUCKSHOT is faster follow-up shots, and a bit less noise
__________________
member of an elite paramilitary organization: Eagle Scouts
Rampant_Colt is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 07:03 PM   #17
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
There's a lot of folks who think that shooting buckshot and slugs over and over is some sort of right of passage, and that if you can't handle the recoil, you're some sort of less of a man....get grip....recoil damage is a SERIOUS issue, it is for real, it is NOT to be taken lightly and it WILL lead to surgery and other maladies down the road. Add in some light gun, like a pump, and heavy loads, and you'll be having yourC4, 5 or 6 fused, along with rotator cuff, pinched nerves in the shoulder, etc, being dealt with.......I know, I'm dealing with it now..............this is FOR REAL young folks, it is NOT a joke and the long term effects are forever............

Shoot the HEAVIEST gun with the LIGHTEST loads...ALL the time and save the macho BS for something else, and save your body for growing old........you'll thank me after I'm dead and gone
oneounceload is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 11:04 PM   #18
LanceOregon
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,774
A standard 12 gauge 2 3/4" Buckshot load actually imparts more recoil to your body than a .375 H&H Magnum Elephant hunting rifle, if fired from a pump action shotgun. A good gas operated semiauto will soften the recoil significantly. But shoot such ammo out of a pump action a lot, and it will indeed be very hard on you. I certainly would not want to do it.

So I would say definitely go with the reduced recoil loads. Although I feel that the Federal brand Personal Defense load is superior to the one that the OP refers to, as it has copper plated buckshot, while the one originally referenced does not. Copper plated Buckshot are harder, and this has two advantages:

1) Less deformation of the buckshot, leading to tighter, more effective patterns, and

2) The additional hardness will also help them to penetrated deeper as well.

So I would recommend this load instead:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=121561

The cost is only 70 cents more for a box of 5 shells. I think that getting the copper plated buckshot is well worth spending the additional 7 dimes.

Even better yet, in my opinion, would be to NOT get Federal's Personal Defense 12 gauge load with 9 00 Buckshot, and INSTEAD get the equivalent Personal Defense loading that has 34 #4 Buckshot in it. That load will produce a far denser pattern, that will be much more devastating at typical self-defense ranges.

Here is a link to it:

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/prod...ucts_id=118316



.

Last edited by LanceOregon; July 31, 2010 at 11:12 PM.
LanceOregon is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 11:52 PM   #19
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
How do they work? Well, the FliteControl wad controls the pattern. The choke has no effect, since the plated shot leaves the muzzle in the wad. Immediately after exit, the petals (more like little fins) open up AT THE REAR of the wad and the shot is released--but not before it's travelled down range somewhat. This is different from a standard wad where the petals peel back as soon as they hit the air and release the shot immediately.

From my Scattergun Tech's, one a Cyl bore, the other Imp Cyl, the "pattern" at 10 yds. is one big hole. At fifteen yds. the pattern is 4" in diameter. At 25 yds., I measured about 7X9".

My testing was done with Federal Tac 00 buck when the FliteControl wad was new. It was designed to tighten up patterns in all those police cyl. bores out there. It certainly does. Recoil is similar to a trap load. The reduced recoil buck has worked very well for LE on the street, with the lighter recoil being better for faster follow up shots, or recoil shy recruits.

On the left is standard Fed Tac. On the right is FliteControl. The petals you see open are, I believe, to release pressure on the packed shot. The "fins" are at the rear of the wad and hard to see.

I disagree strongly with LanceOregons assessment that #4 buck is a better choice than 00 buck. LE all over the country is quite happy with 00 buck low recoil, and usually use #4 to cut down on penetration during entry. I've seen #4 bounce off plywood at a light angle.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FliteControl-IV.jpg (18.0 KB, 23 views)

Last edited by Nnobby45; August 1, 2010 at 12:25 AM.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old August 1, 2010, 04:42 AM   #20
LanceOregon
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,774
Quote:
I disagree strongly with LanceOregons assessment that #4 buck is a better choice than 00 buck. LE all over the country is quite happy with 00 buck low recoil, and usually use #4 to cut down on penetration during entry.
Nnobby45:

The glaring flaw in your argument here is that DanThaMan1776 is not a member of Law Enforcement. If he was, I would have recommended 00 buckshot to him.

For civilian usage, lower penetration is a very good thing.

.
LanceOregon is offline  
Old August 1, 2010, 05:36 PM   #21
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
The glaring flaw in your argument here is that DanThaMan1776 is not a member of Law Enforcement. If he was, I would have recommended 00 buckshot to him.
Don't know what LE vs. civilian has to do with the effeciency of low recoil 00 buck--- which is produced for the civilian market as well as LE. Seems the intended use for both is the same.

One's called Tactical. One isn't. Both have plated shot with FliteControl wad and are ballistically identical.

Yes, I know, for indoor use there are some who'd go to smaller shot to reduce penetration while also reducing effectiveness--but that's another issue.


Possible useful info for those still on the thread.

BUCK from 18" cyl bore using ProChrono digital.
Fed. Tac. low recoil---------- 1160fps
Win Ranger------------------ 1107 (lead)
Fed Classic 00----------------- 1300 (approx)

NOTE: Hornady TAP also uses the FliteControl wad, but with 00 lead buck. Same tight patterns, but 2 rds. out of 8 failed to release shot and went into tgt. with the wad. That's with cyl. bore. With IC bbl, no issues. (pressure issue at muzzle?)
I'm sure the lead wants to stick together more so than the Fed's. plated.

I read where Fed. was designing a tactical version where the buck was designed not to release. That'd be quite the "bowling pin" effect upon impact.


SLUGS
Fed. Tac--------------------------------------1236
Ranger---------------------------------------1193
Fed. Classic----------------------------------1495
Rottweil Brenneke 1 0z.---------------------1372 (kinda in between low recoil and standard)
I hope the added info is at least interesting, if not useful.

Last edited by Nnobby45; August 1, 2010 at 11:49 PM.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old August 2, 2010, 12:03 AM   #22
LanceOregon
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,774
Quote:
which is produced for the civilian market as well as LE. Seems the intended use for both is the same.
But civilian shooters are much more restricted in the kinds of scenarios that they can legally shoot under. They are not enforcers of the law, nor protectors of the peace, like law enforcement officers are.

Because of this, they do not have the same requirements for the ammo that they use, compared to the needs of law enforcement.

.
LanceOregon is offline  
Old August 2, 2010, 12:35 AM   #23
Rampant_Colt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 1,478
Fiocchi has some excellent nickle-plated 00 reduced recoil, full-power 00, and 27-pellet #4 buckshot in ten round boxes available for $5.50-5.75 a box.. It's unbuffered, but excellent for smaller homes or apartment/condo dwellings where distances aren't that far
Rampant_Colt is offline  
Old August 2, 2010, 03:56 PM   #24
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
But civilian shooters are much more restricted in the kinds of scenarios that they can legally shoot under. They are not enforcers of the law, nor protectors of the peace, like law enforcement officers are.

Because of this, they do not have the same requirements for the ammo that they use, compared to the needs of law enforcement.
LOL, OK, contact Federal and let them know. Seems as if those silly people aren't making a distinction between Criminals shot by LE and those necessarily shot by citizens defending their lives. Obviously there are two different species of feral man---each requiring different ballistic standards. How could they not see that?
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old August 2, 2010, 06:50 PM   #25
LanceOregon
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,774
Quote:
LOL, OK, contact Federal and let them know. Seems as if those silly people aren't making a distinction between Criminals shot by LE and those necessarily shot by citizens defending their lives. Obviously there are two different species of feral man---each requiring different ballistic standards. How could they not see that?
Then why is Federal selling so many #4 Buckshot loads? Your argument here makes no sense at all.

I am not talking about differences existing in the TARGET. I am talking about differences in the SHOOTING SCENARIOS. Law Enforcement needs ammo with greater penetration because they often face situations that can benefit from having it.

Civilians don't go around chasing criminals and shooting them inside cars, for example. Nor do civilians go up against criminals that have barricaded themselves. Nor do civilians shoot at fleeing felons who may be quartering away from them, and thus need greater penetration to reach vital organs.

Civilians are typically going to be shooting at short ranges, at someone that is in the act of immediately threatening them. If you go around and shoot people fleeing from you on foot, fleeing in an automobile, or concealed behind a barrier, you are most likely going to jail.

You simply don't have the same rights and authority that members of Law Enforcement have. Your legal right to shoot is severely restricted by state law.

Sure, 00 Buckshot will be able to go through Auto Safety Glass and still be able to penetrate well. But if a civilian shot someone in such a scenario, they would be arrested for being a vigilante.

.
LanceOregon is offline  
Reply

Tags
defense , federal , recoil , reduced , shells

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13481 seconds with 8 queries