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Old July 19, 2010, 09:44 PM   #1
tmtomh
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Glock Pistol Into A Carbine?

I for one would like to see Glock build a carbine platform being a Glock owner from the early 90's. Knowing there are other options out there, still for me, a Glock carbine would be a nice piece for the ol' gun safe.

Consider a custom made 16 inch barrel in the slide and a shoulder stock attached to have a very simple and reliable carbine...Pick your caliber and sighting options...What more could a Glock owner want!

I understand that you would have to keep it as a carbine, because if not, you would be breaking the law if the carbine was changed back to a pistol configuration, and then you would have a SBR without the BATF Tax Stamp. That is why your shoulder stock would have to fit your carbine Glock only just to be safe. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

So would someone please with the gunsmithing knowledge be willing to share their opinion as to if a Glock pistol can withstand the pressures of a carbine length barrel, and if there is a barrel maker out there who can build a barrel to the specs that can do the job? Any and all info would be appreciated!
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Old July 20, 2010, 07:59 AM   #2
The Great Mahoo
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It would be nice to see Glock make a carbine the same way Hi Point and Beretta do. I don't have much use for one, but I'm all for options.

In the mean time, you might want to check out MechTech. A bit pricey for me, but a good way to turn your sidearm into a main-arm in a hurry. I'd consider getting a compact unit with telescoping stock, but can buy a levergun to use, which lets me keep my pistol on my hip as a back up, for around the same price.

Still, not a terrible idea.
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Old July 20, 2010, 08:39 AM   #3
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I like the Mech tech concept, but I agree, it seems like a pricey conversion.

I do like the magazine interchangability and direct ordering though.
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Old July 20, 2010, 08:42 AM   #4
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Thanks Mahoo...

I have known about the MechTech, Hi Point and Beretta for a long time. The Beretta is the only thing out there in a pistol carbine that even comes close in quality, price and style that I would trust my life to. But the 9mm and .40 S&W are not that strong of a caliber. I am thinking more along the lines of a Glock 10mm carbine. If I had the money, the H&K MP10 would be my dream pistol caliber carbine, but the price is way out of my budget.

I already have carbines in the .223 caliber, I am just trying to get what I really want, even if I have to have one made to add to the collection. And being a big 10mm fan, it would be a hoot to shoot and I could go head up against most carbines up to 150 yards with the 10mm caliber, not to mention the knock down power at even closer ranges with the larger bullet.
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Old July 20, 2010, 09:06 AM   #5
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Lone Wolf Distributors.....

Lone wolf makes AR lowers that use Glock magazines. Their current offering uses Glock 9mm .40 S&W/.357 Sig magazines. They are planning a 10mm/.45acp version early next year.

I recently built a 9mm carbine with a Glock fed Lone Wolf lower and a Rock river upper. It's accurate enough, but needs a little breaking in yet.
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Old July 20, 2010, 09:14 AM   #6
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If I'm not mistaken, once you intall your pistol lower on a MechTech upper, you have, in fact, created a rifle/carbine out of your pistol and removing said lower to make it a pistol again constitutes illegal construction of an SBR. (At least that's the way it was explained to me.)
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Old July 20, 2010, 09:25 AM   #7
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gyvel...

My understanding is the same as yours, Fwiw. When you make a rifle from a pistol, you can not go back unless you first get a sbr tax stamp first.
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Old July 20, 2010, 09:28 AM   #8
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Here is one I found, http://www.impactguns.com/store/GC001.html

Not sure what laws come with it though...
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Old July 20, 2010, 09:37 AM   #9
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Hera arms: SBR

Drummer101 links to the Hera arms sbr. You need the appropriate 5320.1 to "assemble" that firearm to put in your collection. Even when they introduce the 16" version, you will be stuck without the ability to switch back to a pistol unless you register as a sbr first. So you may as well just get the SBR, provided it's legal in your home state.

Last edited by rjrivero; July 20, 2010 at 02:54 PM.
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Old July 20, 2010, 09:44 AM   #10
tmtomh
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Thanks Drummer101,

I have seen ther HERA kit...I also like the EMA Roni G1 kit...All I need is that 16 inch barrel to make that carbine. EMA says they are coming out with more calibers soon on their website.
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Old July 20, 2010, 09:56 AM   #11
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Who can manufacture a 16 inch custom barrel?

Believe me everyone...I have scoured the Internet looking at all the options and have made several calls to most of the so called "Custom Barrel Makers" out there.

But most of them make barrels and sell them as custom after just a few adjustments to them...BS!

To me, custom made means manufacturing a product to every spec the customer wants...So far...No luck!

I am willing to talk to a competent machinest who has a metal lathe in his basement if he can make me a barrel!
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Old July 20, 2010, 10:08 AM   #12
rjrivero
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My understanding...

In researching the HERA arms option, www.impulsegunbarrels.com makes the barrels for the Hera arms conversions. Good luck with your project.
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Old July 20, 2010, 10:44 AM   #13
tmtomh
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There you go!

Here is a BIG THANK YOU to RJRIVERO! Your The Man! I have never ran across that website.


Below is what I was "shooting" for!



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Old July 20, 2010, 10:51 AM   #14
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You could register your Glock as an SBR for these
http://www.hera-arms.com/gcc.php
http://www.ematactical.com/viewProdu...=269&catID=376

I had the opportunity to look at the RONI clamshell set up and it was a well made item. The guy selling them had them housing some Glock G18's which was cool. Then he told me the price of $650.00 and I almost fell down. I was thinking more in the ballpark of $300-400.
I have a MechTech set up for my Glock G22 and I've been very pleased. It's a blast to shoot and it's very accurate.

Last edited by flight954; July 20, 2010 at 02:46 PM.
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Old July 20, 2010, 12:41 PM   #15
The Great Mahoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gyvel
If I'm not mistaken, once you intall your pistol lower on a MechTech upper, you have, in fact, created a rifle/carbine out of your pistol and removing said lower to make it a pistol again constitutes illegal construction of an SBR. (At least that's the way it was explained to me.)
In all honesty, I had completely forgotten about this. Even more reason that these won't be joining my collection any time soon. Not unless I can happen across a random 1911 lower at a steal of a price, in which case I would consider this adding a rifle to my collection, rather than giving up a functioning pistol.

The ammo commonality and weapon grip/trigger are nice advantages for these carbines, but the $350-600 for the conversion, on top of the price of the gun you are going to take the lower from, makes this just out of the question for most users.
If I could leave the upper/conversion in my vehicle or pack, giving me the opertunity to turn my carry gun into a long-gun, without needing extra ammo for it and such... that is the appeal of these units to me. But with the SBR condition of it, you just can't opt to do it on a whim. Too bad, as I like the flexibility of such a unit (even if unnecissary for the most part).

Nope, I'll just stick with conventional rifles and pistols staying seperate.
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Old July 20, 2010, 01:20 PM   #16
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Go with the Hi-Point, you can't get any better than 100% and you'll save a lot of moolah.




Last edited by spacecoast; July 20, 2010 at 01:30 PM.
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Old July 20, 2010, 01:54 PM   #17
flight954
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Quote:
:
Originally Posted by gyvel
If I'm not mistaken, once you intall your pistol lower on a MechTech upper, you have, in fact, created a rifle/carbine out of your pistol and removing said lower to make it a pistol again constitutes illegal construction of an SBR. (At least that's the way it was explained to me.)

In all honesty, I had completely forgotten about this. Even more reason that these won't be joining my collection any time soon. Not unless I can happen across a random 1911 lower at a steal of a price, in which case I would consider this adding a rifle to my collection, rather than giving up a functioning pistol.

The ammo commonality and weapon grip/trigger are nice advantages for these carbines, but the $350-600 for the conversion, on top of the price of the gun you are going to take the lower from, makes this just out of the question for most users.
If I could leave the upper/conversion in my vehicle or pack, giving me the opertunity to turn my carry gun into a long-gun, without needing extra ammo for it and such... that is the appeal of these units to me. But with the SBR condition of it, you just can't opt to do it on a whim. Too bad, as I like the flexibility of such a unit (even if unnecissary for the most part).

Nope, I'll just stick with conventional rifles and pistols staying seperate.
It only becomes an SBR if the MechTech barrel is shorter than 16". The MechTech carbine is not a NFA item. I guess you could say it's a pistol carbine. All the BATFE is concerned about is the barrel length and function(full auto or selectfire). An example is putting a CAR/16" length AR15 upper on an AR15 pistol only lower.
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Old July 20, 2010, 02:02 PM   #18
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NFA rules apply to putting a shoulder stock on a pistol. If you install a 16" barrelled slide assembly along with a stock it is no longer a pistol.
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Old July 20, 2010, 02:36 PM   #19
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Interesting conversation.....

All this conversion stuff had my head spinning. I decided to call Mech tech and discuss my concerns with them regarding the NFA stuff in relation to their uppers.

I asked them if I had to register my handgun as a SBR in order to be able to put one of their carbine kits on my Glock Frame. They said NO. I asked them about the legality of putting the Glock back to it's original configuration. Their reply was THIS:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mech Tech via phone.
What you have is a Pistol. It was manufactured, or imported, and the appropriate tax has been paid by the manufacturer or importer. You are allowed to put any barrel you want to on your pistol. You can make it longer, or shorter, or even change calibers.

"Adding a shoulder stock to a pistol is a fine, AS LONG AS THE BARREL IS at least 16" when you put the stock on it.

Therefore, any end user can convert a pistol to a 16" carbine using any kit they want to AND BACK. No NFA registration, no ATF concerns."
I talked to ATF's NFA branch. He looked up the ruling and emailed it to me. The ATF position is this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by atf Ruling
The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. § 921 (a)(7), defines the term “pistol” as: A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).



Additionally, § 921 (a)(7) defines the term “rifle” in part as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder....



Further, the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a), defines the term “firearm” to include: ...(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length…[and] (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length....



Research by FTB indicates that the CCU consists of one of three shoulder-stock variants and a replacement barrel of 16-1/4 inches. (Please consult our enclosure of two pages containing data and images obtained from the Mech Tech Systems, Inc., web site.) The conversion unit is designed to work with either a 1911-type pistol or a Glock-patterned pistol, converting either into a “rifle” configuration. The conversion kit itself is simply a collection of firearm parts not regulated under the GCA or NFA.



As you can see from the citations noted above, there is no definition of a “weapon made from a pistol.” Thus, converting a pistol into a rifle using the CCU would not be a violation of the GCA or NFA. However, there is a definition of a “weapon made from a rifle.” Therefore, when you convert a pistol into a rifle, it can not then be converted back. Doing so would constitute the making of an NFA-class firearm that would require prior approval by ATF and appropriate registration.
So, even though Mech Tech's telephone advice says it's okay, THEY'RE WRONG. Ask them for the ATF RULING, and you'll get crickets. Call the ATF directly, and they send this ruling. This is a ONE WAY CONVERSION, unless you file a Form 1 for your GLOCK/1911 to make it a SBR.

Buyer Beware, and remember, ALL NFA RULES APPLY.

Last edited by rjrivero; July 20, 2010 at 02:49 PM.
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Old July 20, 2010, 02:36 PM   #20
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Quote:
NFA rules apply to putting a shoulder stock on a pistol. If you install a 16" barrelled slide assembly along with a stock it is no longer a pistol.
From MechTechs site.

FAQ’s
Q) Do I need an FFL (Federal Firearms License) to purchase this product? A) No. The CCU is not a firearm and will not fire without a pistol lower in place. The CCU is simply an accessory such as a scope or grips. For State and local laws you are advised to become aware of them relative to where you live. As far as Mech-Tech is aware, the CCU in and of itself is legal in all States. We do know that in the case of California the combination of the CCU and a pistol lower becomes illegal under current law. If and when Mech-Tech becomes aware of any other special circumstances such as California, we will publish this information. Again, the customer has the responsibility to determine the legality of the combination in their circumstance.

With the above quote taken into consideration and with the length of time MechTech has been selling these units, why are the MechTech units still available to the general public with zero interference from the BATFE?
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Old July 20, 2010, 02:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flight954
With the above quote taken into consideration and with the length of time MechTech has been selling these units, why are the MechTech units still available to the general public with zero interference from the BATFE?
Yeah, the guy I talked to touted "10 years and 30,000 units sold." They argued that if the ATF had a problem with their kits, then why would they still be in buisness?

Circular logic.

The truth is that they aren't selling anything illegal. Their kits CAN be used to turn a pistol into a rifle. However, once you turn that pistol into a rifle, you CAN NOT turn it back into a pistol. See the ATF ruling quoted above.

Don't believe me? I don't blame you. Keyboard commandos need to be verified.

ATF NFA branch: 304-616-4500
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Old July 20, 2010, 02:50 PM   #22
flight954
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This has been a very informative thread. Thanks rjrivero for the heads up with a call to the BATFE and a little clarity on this subject.
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Old July 20, 2010, 02:53 PM   #23
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Most welcome....

You're most welcome. I'm happy to be of help. It was driving me nutz, because I really like the HERA kit. The problem is, by the time you're done building it, you've made a SBR. Not a bad thing, in and of itself. Provided you're allowed to do so in your home state and you have $200 to pay your Tax Stamp.
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Old July 20, 2010, 03:32 PM   #24
rjrivero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmtomh
Here is a BIG THANK YOU to RJRIVERO! Your The Man! I have never ran across that website.


Below is what I was "shooting" for!
You're most welcome. Just remember, once you put that barrel and shoulder stock on it, you've made a rifle out of a pistol. You can't change it back into a pistol again unless you Register it in the NFA registry first.
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Old July 20, 2010, 04:56 PM   #25
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Quote:
Go with the Hi-Point, you can't get any better than 100% and you'll save a lot of moolah.
Normally I'd agree, but I'd go with a Kel-Tec Sub-2000 that takes Glock mags...

Quote:
You're most welcome. Just remember, once you put that barrel and shoulder stock on it, you've made a rifle out of a pistol. You can't change it back into a pistol again unless you Register it in the NFA registry first.
Actually, the ATF got slapped by the courts for that one...I'll look around for the case...
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