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Old July 17, 2010, 12:38 PM   #51
Edward429451
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Oh, then I would agree with Peet that retreat would be the better option in his single very narrowly defined scenario.

But in my world things have NEVER been so narrowly defined or clear cut so I speak from a more realistic (to me) expectation of circumstances in a broader sense than you speak.
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Old July 17, 2010, 12:42 PM   #52
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
....in my world things have NEVER been so narrowly defined or clear cut so I speak from a more realistic (to me) expectation of circumstances in a broader sense than you speak.

I fully agree that in the real world it is somewhat unlikely that you will have, one, the option to retreat, two, clear and concise knowledge of that option, and three, the mental wherewithal during what is admittedly a lethal force situation, to make the instant decision to take that option.

No doubt.

However, I also think that part of your awareness of your surroundings is to try to be aware of ways of escape should a situation arise. I also think that part of your home defense plan should include ways of keeping your family safe and waiting for police.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; July 17, 2010 at 12:48 PM. Reason: more
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Old July 17, 2010, 12:44 PM   #53
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I think the armed citizen should make every effort to avoid trouble, but when trouble comes to you I don't feel that there is any moral obligation to run away.

What I think people fail to consider is that the criminal assault is not only an assault on your property. The mugger doesn't simply take your wallet. The burglar doesn't quiet away in the night with only your DVD player while you cower in the corner. These are assaults on your liberty, and have a detrimental effect on your sense of safety.

"The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for?" ~William J. Bennett

Link: On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs. By LtCol Dave Grossman
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Old July 17, 2010, 12:47 PM   #54
Maromero
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Quote:
I believe that if you can retreat with complete safety to yourself and others (when and how this happens you can decide in your own mind) then you are morally obligated to do so.

Shooting someone is a last resort.

LAST resort.

Last means that it is final, there are no other options after it. That means that if retreat is an option then it comes BEFORE shooting.


Besides the moral implications, there are legal, financial, social and mental reasons to do everything possible to avoid shooting someone.
Pete. To me the decision is not based on moral grounds but on a practical one. If I have a viable and safe option for me and my family I will take it but not because I care for the agresor/intruder. I couldn't care less. The safety of my family comes first. No shootout is safer than a shootout. No confrontation is safer than a confrontation. Even if you rightfully kill someone in self defense the consecuences are horrible emotionally and economically.
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Old July 17, 2010, 12:49 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Steel
"The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for?"

~William J. Bennett
In no particular order...

What is worth defending?
- My family
- My country
- My rights
- My faith
- My life

What is worth dying for?
- My family
- My country
- My rights
- My faith

What is worth living for?
- My family
- My country
- My rights
- My faith

Take notice that my "stuff" is nowhere on that list. For good reason; no matter what the circumstance, objects of possession are not worth a human life. Period. And no, I don't give a damn what Texas law says; to me it's an issue of morality, not legality.
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Old July 17, 2010, 12:52 PM   #56
jhenry
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There is a time to stand and fight, even at the loss of my life, and there is a time to get out of the way. For me it is a tactical decision and not a moral one. I have no need to thump my chest or growl. I have a need to protect my family and survive. The goblin's safety and welfare simply do not enter into my thought process. When that person, or persons, decided to become a threat to my life and limb, or my family's life and limb, they have given up any right to safety and well being. I don't care about them. I will stop them however I can with whatever I have at the time.

I'll deal with the consequences later. I have a good lawyer in J. Noble Dagget.
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Old July 17, 2010, 12:54 PM   #57
Mike Irwin
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You know, I'm getting a little more than ticked at people throwing around accusations of trollism simply because someone asks a question that someone else doesn't like.

It seems to be a growing tendency here at TFL.

If you think someone is trolling the board, you REPORT that individual and the moderators will make the determination, based on the content of the thread.

But if you start slinging accusations of trollism around in your messages, you're putting your own posting privileges at TFL in danger.

Do I make myself clear?
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Old July 17, 2010, 12:57 PM   #58
JohnKSa
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The question as it is posed is hopelessly general.

We've got several parallel discussions going as a result. Some discussing the situation where retreat is completely safe, some discussing retreat when it endangers the defender, some discussing retreat in one's own home, some discussing retreat on an international scale, retreat from attackers, retreat from evil in principle, retreat from dictators and their morally bankrupt policies, etc., etc.

AND, we've even got one minor attempt to spin up a sub-discussion on whether deadly force should be used to kill or to stop.

I'm gonna lock this one.

But before I do there I feel obligated to point out a seriously flawed interpretation of TX law found on this thread:
Quote:
After reading that excerpt, it seems pretty clear that if I see somebody stealing my hubcaps off of my car, it, I can shoot him in the back with my 12 gauge, and take them back.
ABSOLUTELY NOT!

First of all, based just on the excerpt, you will be committing murder unless the theft occurs during the nighttime. Taking hubcaps is simple theft.

Second, the excerpt clearly points out that deadly force can only be used if the owner "reasonably believes" there's no other option that won't expose the owner to "a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury".

Third, that excerpt is not a quote from the actual TX statutes. There's more to it than that. The TX statutes are online if anyone wants to verify exactly what they say.
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