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Old July 19, 2010, 04:49 PM   #26
threegun
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I cannot imagine what that trooper must have felt when the gun clicked in his face.
How about when that flame thrower touched off next to his head .
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Old July 19, 2010, 05:11 PM   #27
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No Kidding is right. Thats true the BG does get a shot closer too him then I originally though and the 41 magnum is a serious round. The vid really shows that holy sh*& reaction and once he gets over that how he returns fire.
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Old July 19, 2010, 07:40 PM   #28
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Warrior I: Anyone know what the trooper was using ?
Glock 22, .40 S&W.

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threegun: ..ridicule..
After action analysis isn't ridicule, it is a formal process to generate lessons learned so that situations like this can be avoided. There's no room for preconceived notions, bias, or ego in such discussions.
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Old July 19, 2010, 07:56 PM   #29
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After action analysis isn't ridicule, it is a formal process to generate lessons learned so that situations like this can be avoided. There's no room for preconceived notions, bias, or ego in such discussions.
IMO and the opinion of some others it was. Particularly the way you kinda scolded folks for calling the officers handling of the situation "brilliant". Then list a couple of reasons one of which was not relevant and the other "mistake" possibly saved his life.

I think he delayed or paused way to long......I didn't critique him because I have never had a 41 magnum detonate next to my head with someone trying to kill me. So who in the heck am I to bust his eggs. He won. He's alive the scum bag is dead........just "brilliant".
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Old July 19, 2010, 08:11 PM   #30
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He definitley did react pretty well to the gunshot. This could be because of sheer surprise, but he does fade to the back quarter panel and unholsters his weapon. He then proceeds to barage the car with adrenline fueled gunfire and scored a fatal hit. Id say luck played a major factor but all in all the officer reacted well. I saw what looked like his training kick in after the shot. His fire discipline was bad but thats because of adrenline and he nailed the guy anyway.
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Old July 19, 2010, 09:44 PM   #31
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Again, Hamilton is a small town. This stuff is out of the ordinary there, where as it might be a more regular occurrence in our larger cities. According to their website, they have only 9 patrol officers to keep up 24/7 patrols. Up until the 1950s they only wore a badge and cowboy hat as a uniform upon their civilian clothes.

I think the guy did fine. And on an internet gun forum I don't think it's an action analysis, it's called armchair quarterbacking in my opinion.
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Old July 19, 2010, 10:25 PM   #32
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TylerD: Id say luck played a major factor..
Howso?

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Stiofan: ..on an internet gun forum I don't think it's an action analysis, it's called armchair quarterbacking in my opinion.
Like many things in life, it is what the people involved make of it. Training Manuals and protocol are available in various open sources, and many posters on the forum have extensive LE, military, and protective service experience, whereas others come from academia and others just have a treasure trove of life experience to share.

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threegun: ..the other "mistake" possibly saved his life.
Not sure what you are specifically talking about, but some posters in this thread have mentioned him using the flashlight to swat away the driver's revolver. This is not what happened. After dropping the hammer on a spent cartridge, Davis pulled the revolver back into the cabin after Officer Jessop swung with his right hand. Davis then presented the revolver again and fired a round.

Last edited by booker_t; July 19, 2010 at 10:36 PM.
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Old July 20, 2010, 05:52 AM   #33
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think the guy did fine. And on an internet gun forum I don't think it's an action analysis, it's called armchair quarterbacking in my opinion.
Precisely!

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Not sure what you are specifically talking about,
BookerT.......Have you ever had a revolver pulled and pointed at your face? Have you had a round go off near your head only barrel pointed in your direction? All while knowing that you could die very shortly. I haven't and most of us haven't.

Your post....
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Everyone extolling the officer's "brilliant" action.. while I'm happy with the outcome, generally speaking it was a poorly executed stop.
just smells of the armchair internet quarterback. You make a kinda smug comment in it as if to say you could have done better.

If you indeed were concerned about some inappropriate tactics used by the officer you could have discussed them without injecting the sarcasm to help those LE officers on this board from making the same mistake. Instead you take a slap at those of us who thought he did well and then proclaim his actions as poor.
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Old July 20, 2010, 06:44 AM   #34
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..ever had a revolver pulled and pointed at your face? Have you had a round go off near your head..barrel pointed in your direction? All while knowing that you could die very shortly.
Yes (a Glock not a revolver); yes; and the thought didn't enter my conscious mind until many seconds later.

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..injecting the sarcasm..Instead you take a slap at those of us who thought he did well and then proclaim his actions as poor.
I'm sorry you feel that way, however, I suspect you are projecting ego & emotion onto my comment, giving it meaning that is not there.

Nobody is (or was in the other thread) asserting the incident could have been totally avoided. Intoxicated individuals who are prepared to shoot police are inherently unpredictable and dangerous. Going into the situation, the probability of occurrence could have been reduced by a better approach to the vehicle and driver (that which is commonly trained), while the severity of hazard would have remained the same, reducing the overall risk. That said, Jessop's shooting was quite good, putting every round he fired into the vehicle and striking Davis at least once [edit: exactly once, fatally]. One of the more interesting facets of Jessop's account immediately following was he thought he had fired 7-8 shots, when in reality he nearly emptied the magazine. The perception of time and events by a mind under stress is a fascinating line of study.

Which brings up an interesting point of discussion, which is more important for police work: gun handling and shooting skills, or all the other police tradecraft that is employed every day when interacting with the public? Where should the training time and dollars be spent to yield the greatest benefit, both for the Officers and the taxpayer?

Perhaps you misunderstood my parlance. "Brilliant" was being used in the sense of spectacular, fantastic, superb. Not Isaac Newton.

Finally, personal safety is a personal responsibility. It is the underlying reason the majority of civilians who carry do so, taking control of their own security and not relying on external factors to fall into place. However hard I try, I simply don't find value in comments such as "it's a small town, things like this don't happen there very often." Complacency is just that, it doesn't matter where you are. Things big and small go wrong in my life from time to time, as they likely do in most people's lives, and when they do I always think back asking myself, "what could I have done differently to effect a more favorable outcome?" To answer that question requires absolutely no ego to get in the way, no personal bias, no preconceived notions about the situation or people involved. In the end, I can only control my actions, not those of other people.

Hopefully this incident will be a wake-up call for the other eight Officers to stay sharp every time they approach a vehicle, even in Hamilton.

Last edited by booker_t; July 20, 2010 at 12:50 PM.
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Old July 20, 2010, 10:16 AM   #35
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Let's take this a slightly different direction...

I'm cheering the outcome just like the rest of you. The good guy won. Pulling a gun on anyone, but especially a cop, is asking to be shot.

I believe a LEO has a duty to stop an armed felon, possibly or probably justifying the (was it 14 or 15) round barrage through the back window. While the immediate threat was clearly leaving the area, it is equally clear the driver was a threat to anyone/everyone else. Still the trooper is likely to face a civil suit from the family(if any) of the decedent scumbag. In Montana, that doesn't seem destined to get very far, and i hope it never gets started.

Now, what if that was you? You stop to render aid to a stalled vehicle, say. When you get to the window, man points a large gun at your head, you bat it away, and he fires, missing you while you spin and draw your own gun. He takes off, clearly leaving the area. You don't know if he's going to come back.

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Old July 20, 2010, 10:31 AM   #36
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Daugherty:

In the previous thread discussing this incident (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=407778) most of your questions were answered.

An inquiry justified the shooting. Jury took five hours to make the decision. 14 rounds were fired by Jessop.

http://www.ktvm.com/pages/6804528.ph...tentId=5924692

http://www.kxlf.com/news/hamilton-po...ed-in-inquest/

But it's a fine line, a somewhat similar case ended differently in Washington State:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ooting28m.html

As a civilian, while there is state-to-state variance, if you are in a public area (such as a highway or freeway) and an attacker is driving away from you, firing on that vehicle will likely get you in seriously deep legal fecal matter, both civil and criminal. If the immediate threat has stopped, then you have time to flee and call police.

Last edited by booker_t; July 20, 2010 at 10:39 AM.
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Old July 20, 2010, 12:54 PM   #37
TylerD45ACP
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Booker T

Luck played a major factor because if the BG had a live round in the chamber the officer would no longer have a face. That part was all luck and stupidity on the criminals part thankfully. For some reason, luckily, he had his 41 mag with an empty case over the chamber. No one can say how they would react as Threegun mentioned, and every situation is different. Agree with you on the watch your background when shooting like that, you can get into serious trouble or worse kill someone by accident, like a child.

Last edited by TylerD45ACP; July 20, 2010 at 01:47 PM.
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Old July 20, 2010, 04:15 PM   #38
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Tyler, that's a great point. Had there been occupants Jessop didn't know about, including a child in the back seat, things could have been very, very different. Same for a civilian situation. I hadn't even thought about that!
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Old July 20, 2010, 04:22 PM   #39
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Finally, personal safety is a personal responsibility. It is the underlying reason the majority of civilians who carry do so, taking control of their own security and not relying on external factors to fall into place. However hard I try, I simply don't find value in comments such as "it's a small town, things like this don't happen there very often." Complacency is just that, it doesn't matter where you are. Things big and small go wrong in my life from time to time, as they likely do in most people's lives, and when they do I always think back asking myself, "what could I have done differently to effect a more favorable outcome?" To answer that question requires absolutely no ego to get in the way, no personal bias, no preconceived notions about the situation or people involved. In the end, I can only control my actions, not those of other people.
While I agree with the above quote IMO the things you listed wouldn't have changed the outcome for the better.

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Can you shoot? Do you?
If for some crazy reason I find myself walking up to the window of a strange car and the driver does exactly as in the video, I would fire until I get to cover or the vehicle got far enough away to allow for a safe retreat. If you stand and deliver like the officer did you could be in trouble. If you fire while seeking cover you should be ok.

Frankly I'm shocked it took 5 hours of deliberation for the jury to clear the officer. I don't care who you are if someone does to you what this bad guy did to the officer I would clear you even if you reloaded and began again.
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Old July 20, 2010, 04:25 PM   #40
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Thanks. There are just so many variables that go into a shooting situation it's hard to predict an outcome at all. In an adrenaline fueled charge of gunfire are you thinking about your background? Any of us could do the same I'm sure. Just goes to show how dangerous and crazy these situations are.
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Old July 20, 2010, 05:28 PM   #41
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Frankly I'm shocked it took 5 hours of deliberation for the jury to clear the officer.
Five hours is not a long deliberation, considering a human being was killed (scumbag, chucklehead, ex-convict, wifebeater, regardless, still a human being). The jury was responsible to interpret the applicable laws and consider all the evidence presented at the coroner's inquiry, which was likely quite extensive and ponderous.

While the video clearly shows Jessop was attacked, and the Jurors likely had the same notion that you (and any other sane person) have, I would imagine the sticking point that had to be reconciled within the specific language of the law was that Davis was presumably driving away, not attempting to reposition and continue the attack.

Unlike NFL instant replay, I have no problem with a jury taking as long as it needs to arrive at the correct decision.


A different angle of approach, staying behind Davis' left shoulder, would have provided view of the cabin from an angle that would make it difficult for Davis to point a gun at Jessop, let alone by complete surprise. Likewise, a passenger-side approach would have provided the best view of the cabin, and a clear view of any attempt to draw a gun. Different departments have different protocols, however, and we don't know what they prescribe in Hamilton, Montana.

Having the right hand free and on the gun would have decreased his draw time by literally seconds.

Engaging Davis in conversation once he replied "plenty" to the question of consumption, rather than stepping away while instructing him to step out of the vehicle, also prolonged the time Davis had to retrieve and/or present the revolver.

While none of these things may have prevented the initial shooting, they certainly would have helped Jessop to better control the situation. That's my point, and controlling suspects, especially once they've demonstrated erratic driving and are clearly intoxicated/under the influence, is paramount.

Last edited by booker_t; July 20, 2010 at 05:40 PM.
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Old July 20, 2010, 06:12 PM   #42
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Agree with you on the watch your background when shooting like that, you can get into serious trouble or worse kill someone by accident, like a child.
That would be very bad but worst would be the driver shooting and killing me or my child because I didn't return fire. Sounds awful but it is the reality imposed upon me by him. My first duty is to survive.
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Old July 20, 2010, 06:16 PM   #43
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Five hours is not a long deliberation, considering a human being was killed (scumbag, chucklehead, ex-convict, wifebeater, regardless, still a human being). The jury was responsible to interpret the applicable laws and consider all the evidence presented at the coroner's inquiry, which was likely quite extensive and ponderous.
Thanks for helping me understand the process. I was beginning to think badly of the jury pool.
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Old July 20, 2010, 06:17 PM   #44
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I didn't say to not return fire just something to be considered. I would have shot at him as well but the background is something important to think about.
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Old July 20, 2010, 07:29 PM   #45
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First off, I've seen this before and I think I even commented in another thread on this. Good for the officer than he survived. It was not his day to die.

Let me just add that if it'd been me, there wouldn't have been a laundry in the county that'd be able to clean my underwear!

The surge of adrenaline from the initial attempt probably kept him from experiencing even more fear and disorientation from the concussion wave. That deep boom and the muzzle flash is indicative of the power of the .41 Mag. I know it well.



Did anyone notice that just after he radioed his call sign it appears he was rubbing his left ear? Looked like he was experiencing some ringing or deafness in that ear.

Let the LEOs discuss the minor points of using the A or B pillar approach. From a firearms tactical approach, the flashlight should always be in the weak hand. Always watch the hands because that's what's likely to cause you harm.

My guess is that after the initial conversation, he figured he just had a DUI on his hands. Probably a common occurrance out there.

Re: Child in the car - most officers approach as Jessop did, scanning the back cargo and back seat area for other persons. Still, in that kind of adrenaline rush, he still might've fired several shots before recalling a child was in the car.

Daugherty16 - civilian shooting - Supposing someone "stalled" in the traffic lane and I'm approaching to see if he wants help pushing it to the curb, okay I'll buy that. If that first attempt results in that loud *click* and gunfire as I scramble away, my adrenaline will probably be so high that one of two outcomes is likely -- I don't stop running until I'm behind my own car or I do what Ofcr Jessop did - return fire immediately from the rear of the vehicle. But once he moves off a few car lengths, I stop shooting. Defensible in court? Probably.
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Old July 20, 2010, 07:53 PM   #46
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I didn't say to not return fire just something to be considered. I would have shot at him as well but the background is something important to think about.
I got you. It is very important to think about background under almost every other scenario possible however when a bad guy is tossing lead my way exposed or with no cover its importance is a couple rungs down the ladder so to speak.
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Old July 20, 2010, 07:58 PM   #47
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I think your dead on about the intial "Click" :barf: phase preparing him for the actual 41 mag round. I know a 357 well and its a loud loud catridge I wonder what the 41 would sound like. threegun - yes its is significantly thrown down the ladder with stopping the threat at the top rung. Agree completley on that.
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Old July 21, 2010, 09:27 AM   #48
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I had a 12 gauge loaded with bird shot fired over my head as I knelt to shoot. The muzzle was 1-2 ft behind me and maybe three feet above me. It injured my ear to the extent that I still occasionally get vertigo as a result twenty five years later. A 41 magnum has significantly more pressure. All I can say is I hope his ear recovers well.
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Old July 21, 2010, 12:09 PM   #49
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that is close. What caused that situation to come about if you don't mind me asking. I'm sorry you still have problems because of it.
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Old July 21, 2010, 03:12 PM   #50
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A dove approached us so we ducked. As the bird came within gun range I opened up from the knees. My partner stood and fired. He followed the bird to far in my direction.

Funny thing is I don't recall if we even got the dove.
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