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Old July 15, 2010, 04:35 AM   #51
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hook686
Let's see, BG is advancing on you with knife. You pull your gun (at what distance ?). Then you hesitate (how long ? 1/2 second ?)...
Wow, you really want to shoot someone.

Anyway, there need be no hesitation. In the slightly more that one second it takes me to present my gun, the guy with the knife remembers an appointment elsewhere. By the time my gun is almost on target, he's turned and is running away.
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Old July 15, 2010, 06:51 AM   #52
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In the slightly more that one second it takes me to present my gun, the guy with the knife remembers an appointment elsewhere. By the time my gun is almost on target, he's turned and is running away.
Frank, you are assuming that the person you are dealing with is a normal thinking person. I can tell you for a fact that a number of groups truly will not turn and run because they have no fear of a gun. When they see a regular person brandishing a gun, they think "I'm going to take this guy out and get a new gun at the same time". I have had two encounters with people like this. Both times they tried to enter my home late at night clearly saw me and a .45 coming up on them. Both times they came towards me, both times the were put down by my Boerboel before I could get a shot off. First case was a Katrina guy who had been shot in the past, second case was two Tango Blast members, one of whom had been shot before. All of them told the police that they had no fear of me or guns but "please, please sir keep that dog off". Gunshot wounds are a badge of honor for many idiots.
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Old July 15, 2010, 07:08 AM   #53
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Just because you draw your weapon, doesnt mean you have to shoot. If when you draw your weapon, and are lucky enough that the BG drops his and runs away, thats a good day. If you pull the trigger when he runs you will most likely go to jail for shooting an un-armed fleeing subject. Now if he drops his weapon and still charges you, you have a situation that is in the grey area. "If you are going to carry be prepared to use it" that is what I tell my students. Even if you get the drop on the perp, and you have your gun on them, doesnt mean that their going to stop the attack. You might even provoke them further, and force you to shoot. If you are going to shoot, aim and shoot center mass. You wont have time to aim for a pelvis area unless they are literally on top of you and thats the only shot you can get off to get them off of you. And dont think just because you carry a big ole .45 or
.44 that the attacker will stop instantly in their tracks. Sorry it doesnt always work that way. If the attacker gets ahold of your weapon they can and will use it on you. A little something to ponder!

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Old July 15, 2010, 08:57 AM   #54
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Originally posted by Tuttle8:
I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement.
Thank GOD!!

I didn't see anyone who disagreed with the guy who posted that nonsense. It was a completely absurd reply.
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Old July 15, 2010, 09:03 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hook686
Let's see, BG is advancing on you with knife. You pull your gun (at what distance ?). Then you hesitate (how long ? 1/2 second ?) Then you check to see if he dropped his knife, turned and ran. How long this analysis take ? (another 1/2 second ?) OK now 1 second has passed. The advancing bad guy has not dropped his knife and fled, but is now has covered how much ground ? (20 feet ?) Hmmm I think you are history.

No one is saying that you don't shoot if you're in "instant" peril. You don't "wait to see".

There are approximately 897,965,538,167,835 scenarios wherein you would draw and instantly fire.

There are approximately 538,761,835,569,798,631 scenarios wherein we would draw and NOT shoot immediately.

It is impossible to cover them all and it's not the point of this thread. The point is that "draw" does not "equal" fire.

It's not about being "ready" or "prepared" to fire, as in "Don't carry a gun unless you're prepared to use it." That is assumed.

It's about whether or not drawing your gun essentially REQUIRES pulling the trigger. That notion, would be silly were it not so dangerous.
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Old July 15, 2010, 09:23 AM   #56
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Again, as I said earlier - if there are a million DGUs a year - why are they successful with 95% of them having no shots fired?
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Old July 15, 2010, 10:28 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ranburr
...you are assuming that the person you are dealing with is a normal thinking person..
And you are assuming that he is not.

You (and Hook686) missed the point. I was just illustrating that it's possible that a situation will change. At first, the situation is such that you are justified in drawing your gun. But then the situation changes such that you would not be justified in shooting. There are limitless ways this could happen in real life.

But the question before us was, in effect, "If you draw your gun, must you shoot?" And the answer is, unequivocally, "No." If you draw you gun, you need to be prepared to shoot. And if you draw your gun, the situation should have been such shooting would be justified, i. e., you can articulate how a reasonable and prudent person would have concluded that your assailant had the ability to deliver lethal force, had the opportunity to deliver lethal force and was putting you in jeopardy of an immediate death or grave bodily injury.

But situations are dynamic and can change in an instant. And they can change in a such a way that shooting would no longer be justified.

As Glenn has pointed out (twice) in the vast majority of successful defensive gun uses, no shots are fired.

peetzakilla gets it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
...The point is that "draw" does not "equal" fire. ...
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Old July 15, 2010, 10:55 AM   #58
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Quote:
There are approximately 897,965,538,167,835 scenarios wherein you would draw and instantly fire.

There are approximately 538,761,835,569,798,631 scenarios wherein we would draw and NOT shoot immediately.
Pete. Where do you get those numbers, ah? Good thing you say they are approximates.
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Old July 15, 2010, 10:58 AM   #59
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Pete. Where do you get those numbers, ah? Good thing you say they are approximates.

Bah! My keyboard doesn't have a side-ways "8".... I thought those figures would get the point across!
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Old July 15, 2010, 11:01 AM   #60
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Pete. Where do you get those numbers, ah? Good thing you say they are approximates.
He obviously has a hotline to Mr. Spock.
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Old July 15, 2010, 11:10 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by peetzakilla
Quote:
I'm no lawyer either, but I can guarantee which of those things that I'd RATHER be charged with!

Drawing sooner rather than later would seem to make firing less likely. Anything I can do to avoid shooting someone is a good thing.
That's the one I would rather defend.
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Old July 16, 2010, 12:41 AM   #62
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Quote:
You (and Hook686) missed the point. I was just illustrating that it's possible that a situation will change. At first, the situation is such that you are justified in drawing your gun. But then the situation changes such that you would not be justified in shooting. There are limitless ways this could happen in real life.
I figure you and I see this comepletely different. You seem to think that the BG threatening lethal, or serious injury, force is at sufficient distance to allow you the luxury to evaluate changed actions, as opposed to simple reactions.

Tell me if a BG is at 50 feet, waving a knife and yelling he is going to cut your heart out. Are you justied in pulling your gun ? Hmmmm I'm thinking here in California, Marin County, you might end up in prison if you do.

How about at 40 feet ? 30 feet ? 20 feet ? At 20 feet I figure you are history if you hesitate. Here in California I bet the jury would 'Hang you out to dry' at 30 feet, or greater. It all depends upon the jury, and the attornies I'm thinking.

Bottom line I think your scenario has no rational, logical, factual answer. If you believe you are good enough, quick enough and accurate enough to wait until you have a 'legitimate' lethal threat situation, and still have time to analyze and chamge decisions for action, then more power to you.

Let us simply agree to disagree. I won't draw on the guy across the creek, or street, waving a bat, or knife, yelling how he is going to waste me. Now if he comes across to my side still yelling and swinging then I guess I don't have any choices. You go ahead and hesitate.

My view is it comes down to the jury, the DA, and the lawyers in your jurisdiction, not what anyone of us really think is right, or wrong. What are your possible costs if you do draw a gun and have enough time to see if the BG is going to change his mind ?
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Old July 16, 2010, 01:02 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hook686
I figure you and I see this comepletely different. You seem to think that the BG threatening lethal, or serious injury, force is at sufficient distance to allow you the luxury to evaluate changed actions, as opposed to simple reactions...
I guess we do. My opinion is based on the training I've had at Gunsite, with Louis Awerbuck, with Massad Ayood and with others. What is your opinion based on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hook686
...I think your scenario has no rational, logical, factual answer. ...
As Glenn has pointed out in posts 24 and 56, shots are fired in only about 5% of successful defensive gun uses; so obviously, you're wrong.
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Old July 16, 2010, 01:07 AM   #64
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i've trained so much to fire when i draw that it's engrained in my head. if you're a cop then yea it's "freeze FBI!" and you're basically trying to scare the guy. it's just become a necessity for me to make it muscle memory.
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Old July 16, 2010, 01:37 AM   #65
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I guess we do. My opinion is based on the training I've had at Gunsite, with Louis Awerbuck, with Massad Ayood and with others. What is your opinion based on?
I think it it is a little ridiculous to start bringing up my school is better than yours. If you want to go that route, how about: CSAT, Suarez Intl, Southnarc, Tac Pro, Hackathorn, and others.
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Old July 16, 2010, 01:47 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by ranburr
I think it it is a little ridiculous to start bringing up my school is better than yours....
So Randy, are you now going to contend, as Hook686 has, that, in effect, if you draw your gun you will fire it? Are you going to do so even though all the data says, as Glenn has pointed out, that shots are not fired in the vast majority of successful defensive gun uses. You obviously have the background to know better.

And since some folks seem to still doubt that it's possible to appropriately draw one's gun in self defense and still not fire it, here's a thread on another board describing just such a situation: http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=419100.
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Old July 16, 2010, 02:07 AM   #67
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So Randy, are you now going to contend, as Hook686 has, that, in effect, if you draw your gun you will fire it?
99% of the time yes. As I stated, I am not drawing my gun unless I have no other option. Meaning, I can't leave (escape blocked), I am somewhere that I won't leave (home), I must do so to protect my property (Sony TV = no shoot; family heirloom that can't be replaced = shoot). The 1% is described by the two times my dog took care of things. In those cases 150lbs of angry Boerboel was doing more than sufficient damage (I actually thought one guy was dead). And, I couldn't shoot in those cases without hitting my dog. Incidentally, if you want a dog that is "Johnny on the spot" when he needs to be and a rub my belly/let the neighborhood kids ride me like a horse dog, I suggest you look into Boerboels.
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Old July 16, 2010, 02:39 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ranburr
99% of the time yes. As I stated, I am not drawing my gun unless I have no other option. Meaning, I can't leave (escape blocked), I am somewhere that I won't leave (home), I must do so to protect my property (Sony TV = no shoot; family heirloom that can't be replaced = shoot). The 1% is described by the two times my dog took care of things. ...
Too bad. I guess you don't understand this stuff as well as I thought you did.
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Old July 16, 2010, 02:50 AM   #69
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Frank, let me ask your expert advice. If you can't get away from a bad situation what do you do? If someone is in your house what do you do? Now this last one I understand why you may differ from me due to the state you live in. What do you do when your property is being stolen? I think many people are missing my point here. I am not pulling my gun until I feel I have absolutely no other choice. I will admit that I have been heavily influenced by a number of the classes I have attended. I think everyone should attend Southnarc's courses. They are very eye opening in just how quickly someone can be on you and disabling your pistol or disarming you before you can get a shot off. Once again, I don't care who you are, you can have your gun taken away from you.
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Old July 16, 2010, 05:37 AM   #70
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Quote:
Let's see, BG is advancing on you with knife. You pull your gun (at what distance ?). Then you hesitate (how long ? 1/2 second ?) Then you check to see if he dropped his knife, turned and ran. How long this analysis take ? (another 1/2 second ?) OK now 1 second has passed. The advancing bad guy has not dropped his knife and fled, but is now has covered how much ground ? (20 feet ?) Hmmm I think you are history.
It is entirely possible to disengage after the draw and before dropping the hammer.

I had a situation years ago that forced me to respond. I have posted it before but it is very relevant here. I manage a pawnshop. We open carry in this shop. One day Microgunner and myself were passing time and talking guns (as usual). Our front door buzzer indicated someone coming in. I look to my right and see this man wearing a trench coat walk in (mind you that this is Fla and it wasn't cold). He begins to make a b line for microgunner completely oblivious to my presence. About halfway through the store and to Micro's position he reaches under the left breast of his coat (were shoulder holstered firearms are kept) and begins to pull a firearm from it. My reaction was instantaneous. From the moment he reached under his coat I began to draw my firearm (my draw was about 1/2 second back then from a snapped holster). As I raised my Glock 20 and began to climb his legs toward the firing position his gun appeared from beneath the coat. I remember how big it appeared to me. As I began to press the trigger while still climbing this guys body I suddenly realized that the firearm being pulled was in fact a crossman bb/pellet/dart gun made to resemble a 1911. I released the trigger and microgunner proceeded to ream this guy a new arse and tossed him from the store.

Microgunner said that the guy said he wanted to pawn the bb gun as he pulled AND THEN POINTED IT at him. I didn't hear or don't really remember hearing anything. I got tunnel vision also.

The point is I made several decisions in the span of 1/2 second. I even remember telling myself to find the front sight and commenting or thinking in my head how skinny this guy was and how easy it would be to miss and how microgunner was going to be shot if I did.

There is no doubt in my mind that as you draw and without delay of any kind, you can make the decision to ceasefire. Had I not recognized the gun as a BBgun the nano second it was exposed I would have fired once the G20 had leveled on the Bad Guys shoulder. I saw the large charging toggles as it began to clear the coat but before it was completely exposed or pointed at micro and was able to stop.

In the knife scenario quoted above if the bad guy complied before you pulled the trigger then stop pulling the trigger. If he doesn't then don't stop its really not rocket science. This nonsense about 1/2 second this 1/2 second that is pure BS. You will be surprised at how many decisions you can make in that draw time.
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Old July 16, 2010, 05:56 AM   #71
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Frank, let me ask your expert advice. If you can't get away from a bad situation what do you do? If someone is in your house what do you do? Now this last one I understand why you may differ from me due to the state you live in. What do you do when your property is being stolen? I think many people are missing my point here. I am not pulling my gun until I feel I have absolutely no other choice. I will admit that I have been heavily influenced by a number of the classes I have attended. I think everyone should attend Southnarc's courses. They are very eye opening in just how quickly someone can be on you and disabling your pistol or disarming you before you can get a shot off. Once again, I don't care who you are, you can have your gun taken away from you.
I'm not frank but I will tell you what I would do. Someone in my house (burglar I assume) is going to be met at gunpoint. What happens next depends upon the situation.

Ranburr, How would you have handled this? Wait for justification and you are surrounded by 10-15 guys beating your head into a mush ball

Quote:
So was I justified??? I was playing basketball with my brother in law when a large (10-15 guys) group of ghetto youth walked over to start trouble. As they approached they made it clear in an very unfriendly way that we were not welcome to play there. As they continued to close the distance I pulled my pistol and held it at my side and made a peaceful exit. Had I waited until they began beating us to a pulp I would have been forced to shoot that is if I was even able to shoot at this point.
I think the reasonable answer would be to do as I did and give the bad guys a chance to understand what they are going up against while also giving yourself a chance to ready your firearm for duty.

Whoever influenced you that pulling your weapon should only be done at the very last minute did you a disservice. They just got you killed or forced you to kill had my situation happened to you. If you can't see this then there is nothing else we can say here to correct you.

Please don't take this as a beat down on you.
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Old July 16, 2010, 06:40 AM   #72
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It all depends upon the jury, and the attornies I'm thinking.
Actually, should it go that far, it depends on the law, the evidence presented by you and by the state including witness testimony, the jury instructions, and on the jury and the attorneys.

If the witnesses testify (and/or for that matter, the forensic evidence indicates) that, upon your presentation of a weapon, the attacker made it clear that he was no longer interested in harming you and you shot anyway, your defense is going to have to depend entirely upon a discussion of reaction time and the details of the evidence and testimony as they relate to timing. If the net result is that the jury believes that you could not have stopped what started out as a justified shot in time, you will be OK; otherwise no. That phraseology probably needs work for accuracy to take into account burden of proof, but the idea should be clear enough.

You may prevail, and you may not.

As Fiddletown pointed out in Post 42,
Quote:
Mas, IIRC, was involved in at least one case in which the defender fired late, as the assailant was breaking off the attack. The defense was able to prevail by putting on expert testimony about reaction times and the time lag involved in trying to stop and reverse an action in progress. But whenever a legal defense needs to be based on that sort of reasonably esoteric information, there's a risk that a jury won't be able to process the concepts.
Not a good time to have trained oneself to shoot automatically, for those who have for some reason done so.

My experience has been limited to indoor situations, and while I've never had to fire I've never had to draw from concealment.

If one believes that he will fire 99% percent of the time if he draws, and if real experience indicates that the mere presentation of a weapon resolves conflicts in 95% of the instances, one is either (1) expecting to always encounter a very rare kind of violent attacker, (2) expecting to stretch his defense of justifiability to or beyond the limit at great risk to the outcome, (3) waiting too long to draw at great risk to his own safety, or (4) some combination of the foregoing.

It's a dilemma for anyone. If evasion and avoidance don't work in the face of a serious imminent threat, one may have to draw a deadly weapon. I believe it is incumbent upon oneself to be able to do so very quickly, to err on the side of sooner rather than later (in some states, including Texas, that's provided for in the law), and to be well trained to avoid shooting too late.

Again, back to Fiddletown in Post 42:

Quote:
On the other hand, if you draw your gun and don't fire, at least no one has been shot. At worst someone has been scared. So, with no blood on the sidewalk and no holes in any protoplasm, you'll probably be okay if you can do a decent job of articulating why (1) in the same situation a reasonable and prudent person would have concluded that lethal force was necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable, immediate death or grave bodily injury to an innocent; (2) you reasonably determined it was necessary to draw your gun to defend yourseld, or an innocent third party; and (3) the situation changed so that there was no longer a reason to shoot.

All things considered, the latter should be a much easier sell than trying to explain why you used high speed lead projectiles to punch holes in the living flesh of someone who had given up or otherwise was no longer a threat.

Last edited by OldMarksman; July 16, 2010 at 06:55 AM. Reason: Refer to Post 42
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Old July 16, 2010, 08:27 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Hook686
Tell me if a BG is at 50 feet, waving a knife and yelling he is going to cut your heart out. Are you justied in pulling your gun ? Hmmmm I'm thinking here in California, Marin County, you might end up in prison if you do.
This is precisely why I'd never live in California.
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Old July 16, 2010, 08:32 AM   #74
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peetzakilla,
here you go just copy it and you can save it to paste it later.


Michael Grace
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Old July 16, 2010, 08:57 AM   #75
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This [(in California, Marin County, you might end up in prison if you pull your gun on someone who is at 50 feet, waving a knife and yelling he is going to cut your heart out)] is precisely why I'd never live in California.
Do you think it would be different in Florida, or anywhere else, for that matter? How would you convince anyone that drawing your gun because someone was waving an edged weapon at you at a distance of fifty feet was necessary to protect yourself against imminent danger?

Do you think that someone would have the opportunity to harm you seriously with a knife from that distance? Do you think that you would be in jeopardy? Do you think that you would could lawfully draw your weapon if the answer to any of those questions is "no"?

I suggest studying this:

http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/

Here's a relevant excerpt:

Quote:
Although opportunity can be viewed as a subset of ability, it is an equally important criterion. Basically, while your attacker may very well have the ability to cause you harm, it means nothing unless he also has the opportunity to do so—right here and right now. After all, there are probably countless criminals in the world who “could” kill you and might do so, given the chance; but they aren’t standing in front of you at this moment, so they don’t have that opportunity.

The biggest consideration here is range or proximity. Although a man with a gun is considered dangerous at any reasonable distance, a man with a knife standing 300 feet away is not, simply because he cannot stab you from that far away. Yet there is another factor, as well. If he were standing mere yards away, he still probably couldn’t reach you with his knife, but because it would only take him moments to approach you and change that, he would still be considered dangerous. A common police standard is to assume that a knife-wielding assailant is capable of covering 21 feet and striking with the blade in 1.5 seconds. Mull on that time span.
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