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Old July 14, 2010, 05:11 PM   #26
Hkmp5sd
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There is a fine line between drawing your weapon in a self-defense situation and brandishing, espcially if there are witnesses around. An old training video used to make the statement that there are two blanks on a police report, essentially "victim/reportee" and "assailant/suspect." The video shows the lawful displaying of the weapon to ward off an attack, but the BG turns around and calls the police, reporting someone pulled a gun on him. Who do the cops believe? The gist of the story is if you draw, go ahead and report it to the police. Be the first one to get your name on the report and your story told. It may save you some grief.
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Old July 14, 2010, 05:18 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HKmp5sd
There is a fine line between drawing your weapon in a self-defense situation and brandishing, espcially if there are witnesses around. An old training video used to make the statement that there are two blanks on a police report, essentially "victim/reportee" and "assailant/suspect." The video shows the lawful displaying of the weapon, but the BG turns around and calls the police, reporting someone pulled a gun on him. Who do the cops believe? The gist of the story is if you draw, go ahead and report it to the police. Be the first one to get your name on the report and your story told. It may save you some grief.
Not so in Florida. I pointed my pistol at a man, he called the police and after just a few minutes they asked me if I wanted to press charges against him. Man did he have a surprised look on his face. He believed the same as you. BTW, I never called the police. I just waited for their arrival.
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Old July 14, 2010, 05:19 PM   #28
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If it is so bad that I have to draw, then the next thing is a shot and then more shots. I don't think you draw until there is no other option but shooting. Keep in mind, anyone can be disarmed if they hesitate.
So was I justified??? I was playing basketball with my brother in law when a large (10-15 guys) group of ghetto youth walked over to start trouble. As they approached they made it clear in an very unfriendly way that we were not welcome to play there. As they continued to close the distance I pulled my pistol and held it at my side and made a peaceful exit. Had I waited until they began beating us to a pulp I would have been forced to shoot that is if I was even able to shoot at this point.

I wasn't justified, at the time I pulled my gun, to fire. I believe however that I could articulate in court why I was in fear for my life. I am just as justified in preparing to defend my with a firearm as I am in actually defending myself if I am in fear of death or great bodily injury.

BTW just because you have skinned leather doesn't mean you must point it or even display it.
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Old July 14, 2010, 05:19 PM   #29
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The OP is quite correct. The statement that if you draw, you must shoot is just another one of those gun/internet world cliches we get from folks who posture and chest thump. Sorry to be so blunt.
Sorry, I haven't chest thumped or postured in a number of yrs. I just don't believe anyone should know that you have a gun until they have been shot. I don't think you should draw until it is obvious you have no other choice. And, as I said before, anyone can be disarmed if you are standing there trying to hold someone at gunpoint or scare them off (a number of people have zero fear of guns).
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Old July 14, 2010, 05:26 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ranburr
(a number of people have zero fear of guns)
No one I've ever met. That must be a rare bird indeed.
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Old July 14, 2010, 05:26 PM   #31
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Sorry, I haven't chest thumped or postured in a number of yrs. I just don't believe anyone should know that you have a gun until they have been shot. I don't think you should draw until it is obvious you have no other choice. And, as I said before, anyone can be disarmed if you are standing there trying to hold someone at gunpoint or scare them off (a number of people have zero fear of guns).
If you were right Ranburr (and you are not) then I would have shot some teen aged kids and or died trying to. Had they continued to advance faster than I could retreat they would have been shot. Display saved the day for them and me.
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Old July 14, 2010, 05:30 PM   #32
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Not so in Florida.
One incident that worked out well for you. Not a blanket ending for every incident. I'm sure there was something that made the LEO believe you over the other guy. Totally up to the individual whether or not to report it.
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Old July 14, 2010, 06:01 PM   #33
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Florida, like most states, has a "necessary self defense" exception to the no-brandishing rule. Contrary to internet public opinion, you don't have to shoot someone just because you drew a firearm. You must, however, be prepared to articulate how your use of force was justified under the circumstances--and prepared to defend it in court, if it goes that far. TANSTAAFL!

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Old July 14, 2010, 06:32 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Hook686
...I believe the use of deadly force is allowed if one is in immenent fear of deadly force, or serious injury....
And one may be in such a situation, but upon drawing his gun, the situation can immediately change so he is no longer in reasonable fear of an immediate, potentially lethal attack. And if the situation thus changes, he must not shoot.

So your back is to the wall and someone is advancing towards you in a menacing fashion with a knife in his hand. You draw your gun, and he immediately drops his knife, turns and runs away. Are you going to shoot him? Drawing your gun was justified, shooting the assailant when he breaks off the threat is not.

And BTW, if you do draw your gun, and the assailant splits, call it in and make a reports immediately. Usually the first guy to report is, at least initially, perceived as the victim. That's how you want to be perceived.
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Old July 14, 2010, 07:20 PM   #35
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I'm glad you chimed in, pax. Reading the post in that thread started by threegun had be think about what you said in your book. That was a motivating factor in starting this up and revisit the subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranburr
Sorry, I haven't chest thumped or postured in a number of yrs. I just don't believe anyone should know that you have a gun until they have been shot. I don't think you should draw until it is obvious you have no other choice. And, as I said before, anyone can be disarmed if you are standing there trying to hold someone at gunpoint or scare them off (a number of people have zero fear of guns).
To be clear where I'm thinking:
1. I don't think you're chest-thumping because you're one of the few here that disagrees. You presented your opinion with a thoughtful response and I see nothing wrong in doing so.
2. You say you shouldn't draw until you have "no other choice". Are you saying you have no other choice but to stop or be killed or succum to grave injury? If so, I must present some potentially loaded questions. Do you believe one of the best ways to prevent being caught in a compromising position is to avoid being there to begin? Do you believe drawing your firearm to low-ready is the same as brandishing a firearm? Do you believe drawing a firearm to low-ready the moment before your life is in imminent danger is not a sound tactic if the possibility of losing it to the would-be attacker is low?

My point is there are many times drawing a firearm to low-ready (NOT aiming at the possible would-be attacker) is useful to DETER a situation when properly executed. Are you still saying you should NEVER draw your gun unless you are 100% certain it will be fired?
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Old July 14, 2010, 07:24 PM   #36
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Drawing Your Firearm: Prudent Action?

It may not always be prudent, yet I was taught, 50+ years ago, you never pointed a weapon at someone you were not prepared to shoot, and you never shot anyone you were not prepared to kill.
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Old July 14, 2010, 07:27 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by old bear
...I was taught,...you never pointed a weapon at someone you were not prepared to shoot...
Being prepared to shoot is one thing. Actually shooting, if the situation has changed, is another.
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Old July 14, 2010, 07:39 PM   #38
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Being prepared to shoot is one thing. Actually shooting, if the situation has changed, is another.
You are 100% correct
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Old July 14, 2010, 07:41 PM   #39
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Being prepared to shoot is one thing. Actually shooting, if the situation has changed, is another.
And that's a really good point, that a lot of people in this thread have stated in different ways. This might even be a case of vigorous and vehement agreement, for the most part!

Legally speaking, I suspect a person's a lot more likely to get into trouble by shooting too late (eg, after the bad guy has thrown down his firearm, or fainted unconscious, or started to run away) than by drawing too early (eg, brandishing). But I'm not a lawyer -- you are. What's your experience on that? Is my impression generally correct?

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Old July 14, 2010, 07:56 PM   #40
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I think this notion of drawing equals a must shoot is a morf of the passionate drilling done by instructor for decades that you better be prepared to shoot if you pull. Some of the students I teach say the same thing.
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Old July 14, 2010, 08:30 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax
Legally speaking, I suspect a person's a lot more likely to get into trouble by shooting too late (eg, after the bad guy has thrown down his firearm, or fainted unconscious, or started to run away) than by drawing too early (eg, brandishing). But I'm not a lawyer...
I'm no lawyer either, but I can guarantee which of those things that I'd RATHER be charged with!

Drawing sooner rather than later would seem to make firing less likely. Anything I can do to avoid shooting someone is a good thing.
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Old July 14, 2010, 08:37 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
...Legally speaking, I suspect a person's a lot more likely to get into trouble by shooting too late (eg, after the bad guy has thrown down his firearm, or fainted unconscious, or started to run away) than by drawing too early (eg, brandishing). But I'm not a lawyer -- you are. What's your experience on that? Is my impression generally correct?...
I'd agree. Although I don't have any direct experience, certainly that's consistent with some of the discussions I've had with Massad Ayoob and what he's said about his experiences.

Mas, IIRC, was involved in at least one case in which the defender fired late, as the assailant was breaking off the attack. The defense was able to prevail by putting on expert testimony about reaction times and the time lag involved in trying to stop and reverse an action in progress. But whenever a legal defense needs to be based on that sort of reasonably esoteric information, there's a risk that a jury won't be able to process the concepts.

On the other hand, if you draw your gun and don't fire, at least no one has been shot. At worst someone has been scared. So, with no blood on the sidewalk and no holes in any protoplasm, you'll probably be okay if you can do a decent job of articulating why (1) in the same situation a reasonable and prudent person would have concluded that lethal force was necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable, immediate death or grave bodily injury to an innocent; (2) you reasonably determined it was necessary to draw your gun to defend yourseld, or an innocent third party; and (3) the situation changed so that there was no longer a reason to shoot.

All things considered, the latter should be a much easier sell than trying to explain why you used high speed lead projectiles to punch holes in the living flesh of someone who had given up or otherwise was no longer a threat.
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Old July 14, 2010, 08:40 PM   #43
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When I click on the link that the OP posted, I get a thread of someone selling a Sig. Am I the only one?

I concur with the idea of pulling sooner vice later when warranted.
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Old July 14, 2010, 08:53 PM   #44
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Thanks for bringing that to my attention, stargazer. Long story short, I didn't copy/paste the correct thread.
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Old July 14, 2010, 08:55 PM   #45
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Quote:
you better be prepared to shoot if you pull
100% correct.

If you carry a weapon (of any kind) you must be willing and prepared to use it.

If you draw your weapon (firearm in this case), you must be prepared to shoot.

If you fire your weapon, you must accept the fact that you may kill another person.

Being prepared to do a certain action, and thinking you that you MUST do that action, are entirely different.

If the threat stops after I draw, I am happy.
If the threat stops after I aim at the aggresor.......... not quite as happy, but still a good outcome.
If it stops after one shot........its a crapy deal all around, but the attack has stopped so I don't need to shoot any further.
If I need to empty my gun into the attacker to stop the threat, I will, but just because I had to draw my weapon, dosen't mean this last out come, is the only acceptable outcome.
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Old July 14, 2010, 09:15 PM   #46
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So I am guessing the draw for affect types practice the NRA first two rules of gun safety. Of course you don't want to accidentally shoot someone you were going to shoot.
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Old July 14, 2010, 09:19 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by X Shooter
So I am guessing the draw for affect types practice the NRA first two rules of gun safety.

I assume that you mean that to be sarcastic, but in fact the answer is yes.

You don't point a gun at someone because you MIGHT need to pull the trigger in a second or two.

If you don't need to shoot RIGHT NOW but you do feel the need to draw your gun then the gun is drawn and held at a safe position, at your side, or low ready, situation dependent but is NOT pointed at ANY individual.

Now, the INSTANT that the situation warrants actually pulling the trigger the safety rules in regards to the aggressor are out the window. You may very well still point it at the person without pulling the trigger but you had better not be pointing it at them unless you COULD LEGALLY pull the trigger.
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Old July 14, 2010, 11:54 PM   #48
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draw or display?

If you show your weapon, it will change the dynamics of the entire situation, whether it is in your hand or not.

From the decision to show that you are armed, a person had better be utterly ready to "throw down" and fire. Until then, it's a whole different situation.

For my part, I don't believe in rules, and every second of every encounter is bound to be a whole different universe from the one before.

This reminds me of the silly thing I read in Dune, where the traditional sandworm tooth dirk had to taste blood if it was drawn, before it was put back in the sheath.
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Old July 15, 2010, 12:01 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by X_shooter
So I am guessing the draw for affect types practice the NRA first two rules of gun safety. Of course you don't want to accidentally shoot someone you were going to shoot.
Actually, in practical training (as in IPSC and IDPA) we go by the Jeff Cooper/Gunsite Four Rules:
  1. All guns are always loaded.
  2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until your sights are on target and the decision has been made to shoot.
  4. Know your target and what's behind it.

And yes, we train observing those rules and follow them at all times.
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Old July 15, 2010, 03:16 AM   #50
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So your back is to the wall and someone is advancing towards you in a menacing fashion with a knife in his hand. You draw your gun, and he immediately drops his knife, turns and runs away. Are you going to shoot him? Drawing your gun was justified, shooting the assailant when he breaks off the threat is not.
Let's see, BG is advancing on you with knife. You pull your gun (at what distance ?). Then you hesitate (how long ? 1/2 second ?) Then you check to see if he dropped his knife, turned and ran. How long this analysis take ? (another 1/2 second ?) OK now 1 second has passed. The advancing bad guy has not dropped his knife and fled, but is now has covered how much ground ? (20 feet ?) Hmmm I think you are history.
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