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Old July 13, 2010, 07:50 PM   #1
Shane Tuttle
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Drawing Your Firearm: Prudent Action?

In this thread, a member mentioned if you draw your firearm, you have no business doing so unless you pull the trigger as well.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416256

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I believe there are times when drawing your gun in low ready is a very effective tactic. Also, there may be changes in dynamics of the situation from the time you draw your firearm to the moment before pulling the trigger that could place you on the wrong side of justice. Bear in mind, I never asked for clarification of the member's statement and I'm only going by the post provided.

What say you?
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Old July 13, 2010, 07:57 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
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I say that you are absolutely, indisputably correct. The premise that "draw = fire" is foolishness.

There are an infinite number of scenarios that would have you draw and not shoot. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that you would more often than not, NOT be shooting after drawing.

There are few situations that would justify a draw/shoot mentality. One being that you are already under direct physical assault. Even then, if Mr. BG realizes that you're about to draw a gun and attempts to flee, you may STILL be drawing the gun without firing.
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Old July 13, 2010, 08:02 PM   #3
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I don't agree that pull=shoot. But, I think that pull=be ready to shoot. As was said, the situation in which you would draw is a volatile and dynamic one. Producing a weapon could lead the BG to stop all aggression. But it might not, and in that instance if you don't shoot, it could be you that gets put into the ground.
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Old July 13, 2010, 08:10 PM   #4
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I think if you draw you should be ready to shoot, but that doesn't mean that you should shoot.

For example, if the person coming at you stops when you draw your weapon, and that stops the threat, then you shouldn't shoot.
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Old July 13, 2010, 08:44 PM   #5
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I know it's seemingly remedial knowledge on the matter when burdening yourself with the responsibility to carry. But I had this innate need to start this up to garner a fresh set of opinions on the matter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
There are an infinite number of scenarios that would have you draw and not shoot. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that you would more often than not, NOT be shooting after drawing.
That's my mindset as well, Brian.
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Old July 13, 2010, 09:35 PM   #6
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I too have given this a lot of thought. My take is that if you draw you had damn well be ready to fire. You don't necessarily have to if the situation de-escalates. I would hope that it would.

However, you should never have the mindset that "I just have to draw and the BG will back off." I think that is a good way to have your firearm taken away from you and used on you. Seconds count. Don't waste one or two thinking "oh ****!"
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Old July 13, 2010, 09:41 PM   #7
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Pull-ready. A lot can happen as you draw, even if it only takes you 1.2 seconds.

There are no absolutes, and no always/never. Saying you'd "never draw without shooting" or "always shoot when you draw" is inherently flawed.
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Old July 13, 2010, 09:42 PM   #8
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On city streets here in the good Ole US of A, I would heartily disagree. As a matter of fact, I'd go so far as to say that anyone who has this mindset of pull=fire is but one bad situation away from being a convict who will never have the right to own a firearm again. They should be disarmed immediately IMHO.

I pray to God no one is out there actually teaching their kids or other people that to pull your weapon equals an instant trigger pull. Thank GOD our police were never taught that.
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Old July 13, 2010, 09:54 PM   #9
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I'm with the majority. If I had no other foreseeable options available to me and felt it absolutely necessary to have weapon in hand, then so be it. But I would like to add...

Quote:
Also, there may be changes in dynamics of the situation from the time you draw your firearm to the moment before pulling the trigger that could place you on the wrong side of justice
There is a lot of discussion about the hows and methods to stop the Bad Guy in a confrontation but there is so little devoted to stopping yourself. There is no bell or buzzer, no referee, nothing but your judgment or maybe your ego. The difference between being one of the Good Guys and one of the Bad Guys could be as insignificant as a line drawn in sand.
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Old July 13, 2010, 10:14 PM   #10
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As some of you may have read the thread I started earlier this week, I had an encounter last week with an aggressive dog. I withdrew my side arm from the chest pocket of my waders but I never shot let alone pointed it at the dog or any one. While There was about as much potential for the situation to deteriorate as I have seen in a while it never deteriorated to the point where I felt shooting was imminent. But with dogs like that I never give them the benefit of the doubt, I was going to be ready.
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Old July 14, 2010, 06:41 AM   #11
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If it comes to this, my first option is to draw - my last option is to shoot.

There ARE times you should draw and immediately shoot. There are times when you should draw and watch what happens. I won't go into all the myriad of different scenarios that would determine this, each situation is different and has its own set of ROE. Only the circumstances, the mindset of the "victim", and the perceived mindset of the BG determine which action is appropriate.

I WILL say, if you are one who believes you should blindly pull the trigger whenever you draw, I hope you have a good lawyer.
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Old July 14, 2010, 06:55 AM   #12
shafter
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If someone's coming at me with a knife but drops it as soon as he sees my gun why should I shoot him?

Hopefully someone can back me up on this but I think I remember reading that guns are used 2.5 million times per year in self defense. Only a small percentage of those instances result in shots being fired. I think its great if you can stop the threat without shooting someone.
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Old July 14, 2010, 07:14 AM   #13
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If it is so bad that I have to draw, then the next thing is a shot and then more shots. I don't think you draw until there is no other option but shooting. Keep in mind, anyone can be disarmed if they hesitate.
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Old July 14, 2010, 07:46 AM   #14
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I agree with what the OP said. How can anyone affirmatively say that if they draw their firearm they will shoot. That's "cowboy shooting".

You don't know what you are going to do until you are actually faced with the situation of drawing your gun. Too many things can happen to accurately predict exactly what you are going to do. We're people, not robots and a gun is only a tool.

What I am talking about is different than "flashing" a pistol as a warning, or hesitation is shooting when an attacker has already begun attacking. I think most of us know that, from the time you even consider pulling out your firearm, your brain needs to constantly be assessing and reassessing the situation.
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Old July 14, 2010, 08:25 AM   #15
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Tuttle, I agree with you a hundred percent. I've never understood the mindset some people have, that you have to shoot somebody once your gun's out.

Me, I consider a CCW weapon to be primarily a deterrent, because this is how it is most effective. I would only ever shoot/kill someone if I thought it was absolutely necessary, and even then it would definitely be something that I couldn't ever forget. Point being, in any confrontation, I hope that I'll be doing my best to keep the other person alive.

Only reason to shoot-to-kill is if the other person appears to be going for a gun or other weapon on his person. Then, all bets are off.
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Old July 14, 2010, 09:32 AM   #16
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I will concur with the majority opinion, for two reasons:

(1) Drawing increased your readiness and decreases your response time when it becomes necessary to shoot. It is therefore a reasonable tactical move to make when you are aware that a situation is developing that could lead to a defensive shooting.

(2) As has been noted many times in this and other threads, the mere presentation of a firearm changes the mind of many people with bad intentions, negating the need for firing.

At the same time, we need to remember that there is a certain amount of time that elapses between the decision to cease fire and the end of the physical activity of firing, just as there is a lag time between the decision to start firing and the first bullet leaving the barrel. IIRC, a study by the Force Institute not long ago showed that LEOs that were given a clear signal to cease rapid fire fired an average of between two and three more shots before the hand caught up to the brain. That is something that has to be considered in critiquing shootings and the shooters' responses.
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Old July 14, 2010, 10:00 AM   #17
Glenn E. Meyer
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The OP is quite correct. The statement that if you draw, you must shoot is just another one of those gun/internet world cliches we get from folks who posture and chest thump. Sorry to be so blunt.
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Old July 14, 2010, 12:59 PM   #18
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I don't know. I am sitting here trying to think of a time that drawing without shooting would be a good idea. As a civilian I can think that one situation that would warrant drawing your weapon is a mass shooting like VT and westroads mall. You know there is a shooter but you aren't sure where. Drawing in that situation and waiting for a threat to present itself before doing anything more is a good idea. So, though I agree that you should have a DANG good reason for drawing your weapon, you don't always need to be pulling the trigger.
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Old July 14, 2010, 01:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
If it is so bad that I have to draw, then the next thing is a shot and then more shots. I don't think you draw until there is no other option but shooting. Keep in mind, anyone can be disarmed if they hesitate.
Keep in mind what Ayoob said - (paraphrasing) Many people wait so long before drawing that the only option left is to shoot. They don't give the BG time to change his mind.
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Old July 14, 2010, 01:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
The OP is quite correct. The statement that if you draw, you must shoot is just another one of those gun/internet world cliches we get from folks who posture and chest thump. Sorry to be so blunt.
May be blunt, but also accurate.

Lots of things could happen after drawing, but before shooting, to make shooting unnecessary/inappropriate/unwise.
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Old July 14, 2010, 01:30 PM   #21
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Agreed - the threat of deadly force is a valid part of the "use of force" continuum, but if you're of the mindset that exposing/drawing your weapon is a commitment to shoot, then you've robbed yourself of that step in the continuum and are forcing yourself all the way to the end of the continuum (use of deadly force.)

After all, if the police can (and do) use the threat of deadly force as a tool to de-escalate or obtain compliance, why can't we?
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Old July 14, 2010, 01:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
if you are one who believes you should blindly pull the trigger whenever you dr
Now he clearly didn't say anything close to that in the other thread. Maybe most misunderstood his meaning. I didn't take his words as an absolute but rather as a mindset. Anything can happen in that loooong two seconds it takes to draw and if the threat ceases then the correct action is to stay the shot.

If we're not careful, some may set a bad precedent for themselves by learning to use drawing as a means to control situations that a gun is not called for. If you draw you better (be ready and willing to) shoot.

There's a slight fundamental difference of mindset. Who here has actually scuffled with someone while wearing a gun and never did draw? I have. I believe some would use a gun to avoid a scuffle knowing full well that its an intimidation thing and not being ready and willing to shoot him. I believe that is what he meant.
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Old July 14, 2010, 02:05 PM   #23
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Beacuse we are not LEO'ers.

Here in California I believe the use of deadly force is allowed if one is in immenent fear of deadly force, or serious injury. If a weapon is pulled and a person present feels threatened by that action, I think a call to police would result in brandishing charges.

If you see four gang-banger types approaching you, does that mean you draw, because they frighten you, so as to convince them they need change their course of travel ? Hmmmmm use of your gun to elicite a particular action by another ? This does not sound good to me.

If you actually are being attacked, where you have been shown that you are in fear of your life, or serious personal injury, do you really have the luxury of hesitating on drawing your gun ? That decision making process sequence can take 1 second easily. How far can an attacker approach in that 1 second ?

I do not support use of a gun to intimidate another, even if one is acting out in fear.
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Old July 14, 2010, 03:20 PM   #24
Glenn E. Meyer
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Opinions are wonderful.

How about this. There are about a million or so defensive gun usages in the country, according to research by criminologists.

About 95% have no shots fired.

So, that's that. The day was saved with no shots fired. One can post zombie, meth head, biker, gang attacks all you want but it seems that guns are displayed and deterrent effects predominate.
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Old July 14, 2010, 04:57 PM   #25
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I'll do anything I can to prevent being shot/stabbed/run over and anything I can to prevent shooting someone else. Having my defensive firearm drawn and ready allows me to exercise these options. Anything less would be unfair to my family and community.
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