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Old August 5, 2010, 10:17 AM   #51
TJH3781
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P11 = DAO; cannot be cocked.
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Old August 5, 2010, 10:56 AM   #52
Tabdog
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I did not have a round in the barrel,

So I had to cock it to get a round
ready to fire.

OK, so I did not say it right,

sue me,

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Old August 29, 2010, 10:54 PM   #53
Eagle0711
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I have carried daily for 30 years as a private citizen. I have never pulled a gun on anyone. Can you imagine what the other person could do? He could dare you to shoot him and taunt you. If you shoot, you go to prison unless you are on firm legal ground. If you don't he makes a fool out of you. Think it over real well. Just because you can doesn't mean you have to. Taking someones life is a big deal, just make sure your'e ready to live with it. Best ,Lyle
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Old August 31, 2010, 07:06 AM   #54
LordTio3
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Can you imagine what the other person could do? He could dare you to shoot him and taunt you. If you shoot, you go to prison unless you are on firm legal ground. If you don't he makes a fool out of you.
Would you rather be branded a fool by an idiot, or a murderer by a jury of your peers? Not really a difficult question if you ask me.

That being said, your question is based on flawed assumptions. If you have had probable cause to rightfully and legally brandish your firearm with the intent to establish a threat of lethal force, then you are legally justified in using legal force. You don't pull your gun on an unarmed person unless they are a real threat to you.

So, including this information in your scenario, you have established that the person is either armed and dangerous, or otherwise poses an honest and articulable threat to you. You have established this and have drawn your weapon with him now at gunpoint.

Personally, I could not care less what he says, who he insults, how loud he is, or what language he's using as long as he complies with my demands which can be as simple as, "Don't come any closer and put that weapon down." If he doesn't have a gun as well, you have him by the balls and he knows it. Anything he says afterwords is petty and unimportant. It would be like yelling insults and threats at a Secret Service Agent. Yah, you might get in a good quip, but he has the right to detain you for 48 hours without cause. Which end would you rather be on? Personally I'd rather be behind the trigger.

If he does anything at that point to increase the already present threat to you, you are legally justified in shooting him, because he's an absolute idiot who either wants to die, or is honestly willing to bet his life that a stranger that he knows nothing about doesn't have it in him to pull the trigger. Don't give him the chance of being right. Protect yourself.

JMHO,
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Old September 11, 2010, 02:22 PM   #55
Don P
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I pulled my gun, pulled the trigger, and the flag poped out of the barrel that read BANG!
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Old September 11, 2010, 04:51 PM   #56
Amin Parker
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Iv been there too many times.

I have been in countless armed encounters and have shot 8 people, 2 died on the scene. All these actions i have been charged and i was found to have acted in self defence.

I have learned the following very quickly. You pull your gun and stare at the bad guy you making a big mistake as a private citizen with no back up. Bad guys can be smart, in South Africa you will lose your gun and your life in a matter of seconds because the only thing they are thinking about at that point is to take your gun. They feel that if you have not pulled the trigger yet you have no balls and will probably not.

Learn to draw and fire fast. Give them verbal warnings if the situation allows. If you feel that you are in danger and you need to take control or face injury or death, draw and shoot immediately. Stop them in their tracks.

Under gun point they will tell you all kind of things and the bad guy or his friends will come close until you are in a very bad situation tactically. His " friend" will tell you to put the gun away and that he will take him home or make some excuse like being drunk etc and when you least expect it you will be in a struggle to hold onto your gun.

I have made that mistake but fortunately managed to win but it could go very wrong easily.

Run away or pull the trigger. There is nothing in between. Bad guys only freeze while at gun point in the movies
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Old September 11, 2010, 04:51 PM   #57
TylerD45ACP
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And the guy on the other end crapped his pants. :barf:
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Old September 11, 2010, 04:58 PM   #58
ebsterdog
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to pull or not to pull,

This is an interesting discussion. I noticed that you made no mention of the perpetrator being armed. I've personally never given thought to pulling a gun on an unarmed person, nor do I think anyone should. Aren't we guilty of bringing a gun to a fist fight if we do?
I had a similar encounter with an unarmed, unstable person at a filling station years ago while armed. The guy decided that I needed to be beat up for taking his fuel pump. No amount of verbal persuasion could change his mind and before I knew it, the fight was on. Thankfully I was able to hold my own until he was tired enough to stop throwing punches and curse me instead (by the way, the sticks and stones thing really is true).I got back in my car, found another filling station, the wounds healed in a week or so and life went on.
Making the decision to pull my weapon in a confrontation means not doing so will put my life in immediate danger (life, not reputation). This is the definition of self defense with a handgun as I understand it. Please provide more details about your experience and share your thoughts, I'd like to see it from your point of view.
thanks, eb
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Old September 11, 2010, 05:05 PM   #59
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Self preservation comes before ALL else. Thats the bottom line.
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Old September 11, 2010, 05:14 PM   #60
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One time I was driving and 2 gentlemen pulled up alongside me, obviously peeved at me. For what, I don't know, but I am a fairly aggressive driver. Anyway, they started pulling over into my lane, trying to run me off the road. At best, I would have gone into the curb, at worst, head on into oncoming traffic. Then the cars in their lane braked but my lane was still going, so I got ahead of them.

They soon came back alongside me and started coming into my lane again. I pulled my .45 and extended my arm in their direction whlie keeping the pistol below the window so they couldn't see it yet. I glanced in front to make sure no idiots were stopping for no apparent reason, then back at the guys. The passenger had apparently read my body language and figured I was about to pop a pistol up, pointed at them (which I was) and I saw him grab the driver's shirt and yell at him. He hit the brakes and I kept going.

Just another day's commute in Houston.
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Old September 11, 2010, 05:35 PM   #61
TylerD45ACP
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Good Move. I probably would have done something similar. What kind of 45, my personal fav the 1911?
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Old September 11, 2010, 05:37 PM   #62
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Of course!
Para P13 loaded with Hydra-Shoks.
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Old September 11, 2010, 05:44 PM   #63
TylerD45ACP
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Nice. I prefer single stacks myself but Para's are awesome. A P12 is what got me into 1911's at 9yrs. old. I have a S&W fullize 45ACP that is awesome. Im looking to get a smaller carry 1911 though(Colt Defender/STI Ranger II?). If those guys tried anthing by the way they would be swiss cheese lol how close, were they on your right or left?
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Old September 11, 2010, 07:46 PM   #64
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They were on the right, the passenger's side. I'd have shown them the weapon first, given them about 2 seconds to back off, before I put one in the driver's chest. That would likely have discouraged him. I couldn't have missed, our vehicles were almost touching.

I have 4 or 5 1911's, the smallest being a P10 for Summer concealed carry.
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Old September 11, 2010, 09:19 PM   #65
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Cool. I thought they were on the right for some reason. Im guessing your a righty because most are. You did the right thing getting it ready for action with the piece. Im sure you knew what you had to do and would have blasted the driver, that would hopefully deter the other guy, maybe hit him . I think that was a nice move especially in a moving vechile it makes it difficult. 230gr. Hydra's? Any load 185 and above are the ones to go with. Really light for special purpose.
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Old September 11, 2010, 10:29 PM   #66
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Last time I pulled a gun I hesitated because I thought he might be a KID and he was going out the window. To shoot would have been in his back. Actually, he was 41. His partner at a blind corner of my living room put a 38 (158 gr.RNL) in my lower gut. Never again will I hesitate, even if he's wearing dypers.
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Old September 11, 2010, 11:14 PM   #67
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Quote:
One time I was driving and 2 gentlemen pulled up alongside me, obviously peeved at me. For what, I don't know, but I am a fairly aggressive driver.
Houston, we have a problem.

It is doubtful that a random person is purposely going to make a concerted effort to "run another random person off the road". It's pretty obvious something was done to provoke their reaction and I'm guessing if someone did to you as you had done to them, you would chase them down.

A fire arm is supposed to be a " get me out of this bad situation I've found my self being forced into " and not a " I've done something to provoke someone and now I need a escape route "
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Old September 13, 2010, 01:57 PM   #68
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I'd have shown them the weapon first, given them about 2 seconds to back off, before I put one in the driver's chest. That would likely have discouraged him.
Bubba is waiting for you........in a nice warm cozy cell.

Cant belive some of ther stuff posted here. Cartoon network down again?
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Old September 13, 2010, 08:18 PM   #69
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WANT A LCR 22LR, as I stated, I really don't know what I did to provoke them, maybe cut them off in traffic or whatever, but it doesn't matter. Nothing I did to them could justify them attempting to run me off the road, which is assault with a deadly weapon, using the vehicle as the weapon.

markj, I don't know what part you don't understand, the part about their ADW or my ability to hit a target that was about 6 feet away.
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Old September 14, 2010, 07:29 PM   #70
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Today was my 1st of 3 days of an armed security officer safety class & the majority of today's debates all had to do with "what if" when guns get involved. The lesson I took from the class (taught by a former cop, security officer company owner, navy man & 15 years as an instructor) was that more often than not, pulling our guns out will get us in trouble with the law. We weren't all that impressed with the course book because it was in direct contrast with some things we all thought to be true, perhaps to LEGALLY cover our 6. Basically, it boiled down to if you can't get away & call 911, you can pull your gun out.
Funny how walking around Iraq with a gun in hand all the time changes one's perception of "When can I go for my gun?"
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Old September 15, 2010, 03:43 PM   #71
markj
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I'd have shown them the weapon first, given them about 2 seconds to back off, before I put one in the driver's chest. That would likely have discouraged him.
That part. Do that and you will more than likly go to jail. What part of that dont you understand? Cant just go shooting someone in the car next to you just cause you thought he was a threat.
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Old September 15, 2010, 05:05 PM   #72
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I didn't "think" he was a threat. He was. He was very deliberately trying to run me into oncoming traffic, while looking at me and cussing. In fact, he tried it twice. There simply wasn't any question. It wasn't some idiot yaking on a cell phone and weaving across lanes.

Speed limit along there is 40, with a lot of traffic going faster = 80 to 90 mph closing speed. I wasn't going to let him push me into that. If you want to if put in the same situation, go ahead.

You'll notice (since you quoted it) that I intended to show him the weapon first, thus giving him a chance to back off. If he insisted on going ahead after that point, then he was obviously very determined to do me bodily harm.

Last edited by TimberWolf7.62; September 15, 2010 at 05:12 PM.
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Old September 15, 2010, 05:24 PM   #73
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Nothing I did to them could justify them attempting to run me off the road, which is assault with a deadly weapon, using the vehicle as the weapon.
That's probably not how their criminal action would be classified.

Quote:
I didn't "think" he was a threat. He was. He was very deliberately trying to run me into oncoming traffic, while looking at me and cussing. In fact, he tried it twice. There simply wasn't any question.
If you had fired, you would next be in the position of having to provide at least some evidence on each of the following points:
  1. The person had the ability, the opportunity, and the specific intention to kill you or cause you serious bodily harm at that moment, and
  2. To save yourself from death or serious injury, you had no alternative but to fire your gun.

Failing on any one of the above would result in criminal conviction and make you liable for damages caused by the moving car of the man you had injured.

It would be an uphill battle at best, and you can bet that there would be contradictory testimony and that the forensic evidence would be unlikely to help you.

There is VIP training available on what to do in such a situation, and it involves using the car, not a gun. It is extremely expensive, and may not be available to everyone.
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Old September 16, 2010, 08:01 AM   #74
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True enough, but then some or all of that would be true in almost any shooting.

Also keep in mind that Texas law is fairly forgiving when it comes to shooting someone - you can shoot to keep someone from stealing your property, for example: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...n/7199891.html
The above is not an isolated case and more than likely will not result in charges.

Last edited by TimberWolf7.62; September 16, 2010 at 08:09 AM.
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Old September 16, 2010, 09:14 AM   #75
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Maybe police stories don’t count, but I came close taking out a perp and it was a scary incident.

Years ago, I was working an A line, midnight to 8 AM when I got behind a car with out of state plates driving at 30 MPH in a 55 MPH zone on a state road. I ran the plate and it came back a hit. “File one”, stolen vehicle.

I called for backup and lit him up. He pulled over, got out of the car and refused to comply with my orders to show me his hands. He appeared to be concealing something, so I broke the shotgun loose. As a cop, your first instincts tell you he has a gun.

I dispensed with further “PPP” or proper police procedures and I said, “If you flinch, you’re dead.” I had a bead on him and I extended the barrel beyond the spot light so he could see his fate.

He finally complied and threw the object into the front seat of the vehicle and put his hands in the air. When backup arrived, we took him down. Turns out, he was wanted for felony assault in his home state and he was driving the victim’s car. All he had was a pellet gun. He wasn’t all that bright, but he knew the difference between a pellet gun and a shotgun.
Good thing, because he was about 6 lbs of finger pressure from eternity
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