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Old July 14, 2010, 03:47 PM   #26
Microgunner
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Originally Posted by threegun
Microgunner, Does BookerT remind you of someone? Initials DA.
No Duh! If it ain't him it's his first cousin.
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Old July 14, 2010, 03:54 PM   #27
threegun
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No Duh! If it ain't him it's his first cousin
Check out the dates Micro.......wow what a coincidence LOL.
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Old July 16, 2010, 12:12 PM   #28
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In my former life as a police officer, armed suspects who were confronted either surrendered or fled. I never fired on a suspect, and the only time I directly received incoming fire was during a vehicle pursuit with suspect shooting over his shoulder while driving.

Here are couple examples that come to mind:

1. Man with gun call. Arrive to find suspect in the street with a Smith & Wesson Model 39 stuck in his front waist band. Suspect was slow to respond to verbal commands, but finally surrendered. Subsequent questioning revealed he was depressed and considering suicide by cop, but was afraid to draw.

2. Disorderly conduct call, suspect waving a brick around and yelling out in the street. Suspect dropped the brick as I arrived, but witnesses in the area alerted me to the suspect being armed with a knife as I exited my car. Suspect was challenged at gun point to drop the knife and immediately complied.

3. Shots fired call. Partner and I responded to a nearby flop house, and suspect located just inside an open garage door. Shiny metal flash in his hand, which was lowered to his side. Quickly identified the weapon as a 12-inch butcher knife and not a firearm. Suspect was challenged at gunpoint, and after some brief posturing he dropped the knife.


I've always been able to avoid, evade, or de-escalate trouble when off-duty or as a regular citizen. Awareness is the first weapon in my arsenal.
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Old July 16, 2010, 05:34 PM   #29
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I've never been in that situation, but I remember an incident clearly from when I was a kid. We lived in San Antonio but were in Houston visiting family, and my dad always carried when we took roadtrips.

We were at a 4 way stop with 4 Stop signs. Just our truck and a truck full of Hispanic guys that looked like construction workers (the pickup bed probably had about 4 guys in it). No other cars around. We stopped, waited, and started to go. They come up, approach, and roll through their Stop sign. My dad loves the horn, so he lets them have it. They stop in the middle of the intersection and everyone glares at us. My dad waits, I'm frozen with fear in the passenger seat, and one of the guys stands up like he's going to jump out of the bed of the truck.

In a heartbeat, my dad reaches in front of me, opens the glove compartment, and has his Colt Python .357 magnum out, and is holding it casually on the steering wheel. They drove away, and that was that. Funny thing is, my dad doesn't even remember it, I guess it was in the early or mid 80's or so. I started calling him Frank Castle after that lol. He didn't know who that was, so I said, "he's like Mack Bolan". He thought that was funny.
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Old July 16, 2010, 05:54 PM   #30
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Awareness is the first weapon in my arsenal.
Well said!
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Old July 17, 2010, 09:31 AM   #31
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I work as a Alarm Response Officer and work with local PDs our company SOP is that if you pull you weapon let the PD know, most of the time they say ok and thats it, unless they are there with you and and you have a burg in custody, then they write up a report, sn of weapon blue card no and all that BS, other than that nothing else. But if you are ccw and you pull your piece its best to call PD and report it so they cant say a man pulled a gun on me and you get in Deep S--t !!!!!
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Old July 17, 2010, 10:15 AM   #32
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But if you are ccw and you pull your piece its best to call PD and report it so they cant say a man pulled a gun on me and you get in Deep S--t !!!!!
Why couldn't they say "a man pulled a gun on me"?
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Old July 19, 2010, 06:26 AM   #33
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Why couldn't they say "a man pulled a gun on me"?
I think his intended response was,

'If you pull your weapon and brandish it as a civilian, it would be prudent of you to notify the police. It would look much better for your side of the story if you would have already explained the situation in-depth and your throught process if/when the other party calls the police to say that some guy pulled a gun on him for 'no particular reason'. In the latter case, you are under immediate scrutiny and must explain yourself to get out of the hot water that you're currently in, rather than having already bypassed said alarm-state.'

Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Old July 19, 2010, 11:34 AM   #34
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I agree that it is better to be the first reporter at least I feel like it is. Still I didn't called the PO PO when it happened to me.

Microgunners case does prove that law enforcement can be open minded even if we decide not to call.
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Old July 21, 2010, 10:15 AM   #35
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I have had to use a firearm and I will never get over it.

I posted a horrible experience I had when two intruders fired on me and I was shot and had to kill both in my living room. I am a Texas attorney and know the law as far as the statutes and common law exceptions to carrying a loaded gun. We have people in the rural parts of our state who carry a loaded rifle and shot-gun in their gun racks in plain sight. My state legislature passed a law concerning self-defense and the use of firearms to defend yourself and your property. It's called the "castle doctrine" and allows you to use deadly force to defend your person, in the home, even if the intruder is unarmed and fleeing. It has been extended by judicial interpretation to defense of your car-as an extension of your home. In addition, you can use deadly force to defend your property. We have a myriad of cases where someone has a barn or warehouse and is regularly burglarized. You can actually lay in wait and ambush someone who is stealing personal property. Since this law has passed, two skip tracers, or as they are called in the television series "Dog the Bounty Hunter" bounty hunters, or as we attorney's call them bond agents, have been killed trying to apprehend someone who has an active warrant from failure to appear. In both cases the bond agents ran up on the fugitive without warning, failed to identify themselves and were killed. Both were no-billed by the grand jury. We have had more than 10 persons killed attempting to repossess motor vehicles and none of the shooters were indicted. The message from the District Attorney in the most populous county in Texas [Houston, Harris County] was, if your a repo man, you better be quicker, or don't hook up to someone's pick-up in the middle of the night. Now I stated earlier and I will again, even if I am armed ( I have a concealed weapons permit ) and I am confronted by a mugger, even after my home was broken into while my wife and young son were home with me, I am giving you my wallet. Additionally, had I not had the burglars fire through my bedroom door, they could have carried off my flatscreen and DVD player, while I took cover in my bedroom with my Remington Marine 870 tactical 12 gauge. However, when one of them fired through my door after I yelled "I'm armed and on the phone with the police, you better get what you got and leave." I knew I had to enter that room and do what I had to do. My wife and son were on the master bedroom closet floor not 60 feet away and I had to stop those men from entering my bedroom. I did not want to shoot anyone. I regret to this day I had to go into the bedroom and kill two strangers. I do not remember shooting, chambering other rounds, and cutting on and off my tactical light, I did not know I was shot by a 40 cal Taurus semi-auto until the Police arrived and I was in the closet with my wife and child. And I saw first-hand what 12 gauge 00 Buck, chambered in 3 inch magnum does to human flesh and bone. My home was destroyed and my insurance spent $60,000 in repair and replacement. I spend two weeks in the hospital and my wife had to clean up the mess. We had to buy new furniture, sheetrock in five rooms, replace carpeting and my bedroom door. Still, I would not kill anyone over a TV or DVD player. My ONLY concern was my wife and son. I had a CWP before the event and still carry. I do not brandish the firearm ever and would never pull it out unless I had no other choice. If the aggressor retreated, he would do so in peace. As I have stated before, I am "situationally aware" and would not allow myself in my present surroundings to be in a situation where talking could not defuse the situation. I will and have retreated from confrontation. I have nothing to prove and carrying a weapon is a responsibility and does not embolden me. I was a professional boxer until I met my wife and have the option to use non-lethal force and have done so when talking fails. But I will say this again, if I pull my firearm or raise my shotgun in defense of myself or my family, and you pose a continuing threat, I will kill you. I will agonize and doubt myself as before. But I will not hesitate. I have never had to raise a weapon before that night, thank God. When I do, I do not point it at you to "scare" you, or make you rethink your situation, I do so because I am going to shoot you and I intend to kill you. Agree or disagree. Change the hypo all you want, there are infinite situations, degrees of threat, attack, retreat, duty for you to retreat, etc.... If I pull my weapon, I intend to kill you. Pistols are not made for fun and relaxation. I have other firearms that are infinately more fun to shoot and hunt with. My pistols are made to kill other human beings. I have practiced for that purpose, and will fire it if I pull it.....period. I am an avid firearms collector and can promise you, 9 out of 10 people, given a choice, want to fire my AK and AR platforms. I collect bolt action rifles. I have many rare and expensive shotguns. However I only have six pistols. A pair of stainless steel Colt .357 Pythons which were a gift from my father when I graduated from law school, my wife's 40 cal Glock, a Colt 1911, my concealed weapon of choice a Barretta 9mm, and my father's trooper pistol from his State Trooper career. I'm done.
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Old July 21, 2010, 03:31 PM   #36
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My pistols are made to kill other human beings. I have practiced for that purpose, and will fire it if I pull it.....period.
So if the bad guy sees you smoking leather with your pistol and drops his gun while screaming like a little girl you still gonna fire???
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Old July 21, 2010, 06:26 PM   #37
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As LEO had multiple opportunities in shoot don't shoot scenarios always error on don't shoot side due to agencies that were famous for hanging cops out to dry in shootings. When I worked narcotics not much gun play because everyone expected the other guy to be strapped.
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Old July 21, 2010, 06:35 PM   #38
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So you pulled your gun on someone what happened next???

They gave me their wallet and watches, as instructed. Then I ran off.
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Old July 21, 2010, 10:27 PM   #39
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If you are going to pull your gun out of your holster, you damn well better pull the trigger (unless you are a trained LEO). Otherwise, you have no business extracting metal from leather.
Oh come on now, that just ain't so. I am a trained LEO, well trained at that. I was also a firearms' instructor for about 13-14 years. are you telling me that if I was not a trained LEO, and heard someone break into my home, in the middle of the dark of night, that I would have no business to arm myself with pistol in hand (as in out of its holster) and that if I had pulled it out and then saw a prowler/intruder I had better 'damn well pull the trigger' even if the guy saw me put up his hands and said I surrender? Absolutes about what you must do just don't work each and every time.

As for me having drawn my gun from my holster I have done it many - many times while on entries and during other arrest situations.

I have also done it on the spur of the moment during life or death situations. One time I fired and missed, had broken glass in my eyes, but the bad guys fled.

Another time pulled it on a guy coming at me with a knife, even though he was drunk, he stopped.

Another time, I stuck a gun barrel into a bad guy's mouth. A bystander jumped me and pulled my arm down because he thought I was going to kill the bad guy. Maybe -maybe not, I was pretty badly beaten and very woozy from several hits to my head with a club. He and 3 or 4 other of his buddies had been in the process of beating me bloody until I was able to get a gun out of my car. It was in the car because I had stopped for a beer. never even had more than a sip and these jokers started harassing me so I left the bar. They followed and jumped me. He and the main other guy were arrested and went to trial. He was acquitted the main guy convicted.

Another time I fired a warning shot that actually parted the guys hair. Net effect, he and about 15 to 20 other guys who were about to try to beat me to death fled back into Mexico. Had they not - well I would have had one shot less but still would have had 5 and a couple of complete reloads. Would not likely do that again, next time I would probably shoot the guy under the exact same circumstances but I was young and a green-horn at the time.

Another time, I shot the guy, he had no chance to react other than to turn and flee. Shot into his thigh, came out of the leg, through the ball-sack, out of the ball-sack, into his other thigh and down the bone toward the knee where, as far as I know, it is still lodged if the dirtbag is still alive. That was about 22 or 23 years ago and I figure someone probably killed him by now or that he has OD'd by now.

A couple to a few other times, but those are enough to illustrate, no you do not need to pull the trigger each time your gun clears leather. Sometimes the threat stops once you draw or display the weapon. The thing is you had best be continuously assessing the situation and then determining how to act based on your assessments and knowledge to know if you should fire once the weapon is in hand and ready to be fired. That way, should you ever actually have to shoot someone, you will be more likely to have been justified than to have simply fired a shot as a reaction of you having drawn your weapon. Don't ever believe that the threat cannot be stopped without the need to fire a shot. That is a good way to get yourself tried for murder.

All the best,
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Old July 28, 2010, 02:23 AM   #40
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Thank you hammerstrike for sharing your story.

I just became a CCW holder and i carry when i go anywhere. I'm a home owner, and myself have a family (Wife and a little boy).

I have a Full sized XDM .40 cal that is my carry weapon at this time. When I carry i have both 16 round magazines loaded with hollow points. At home it remains in my Office ready to go (But hidden). Also in the office closet is a loaded magazine for my GSG-5 and the GSG-5 itself.

In my Bedroom, within arms reach of my side of the bed, Is my 12 gauge Mossberg 500T loaded with Remmington home defense shells.

I always wonder what I would do if someone broke into my home. I would be armed with my 12 gauge when i encountered them..If i see a weapon or an attempt to grab a weapon. I will fire. If I see no weapon, no attempt to grab a weapon and they are submissive/run, I will allow them to leave and then make the appropriate calls to police.

As for a story pulling a weapon on someone..I do not have a story (yet) and hopefully it will remain that way. However i was recently told a story by a friend of mine who carries...and i will share his: This is located in Florida.

He was at his apt. and it was late one evening. He stepped out front and saw a girl leaning on his car and ******* in the parking lot (He has a very nice car). He proceeds to yell at the girl, "Hey Hoe, Get the F**k off my car." She yells some comments back and then 5 guys get out of a car nearby and surround my friend. a few of them removed their belts and wrapped them around their hands (Remember this). He had his jacket on, with his XD .40 Compact on his side. One of the guys got in his face and started shoving him. Firmly with one hand out holding the attacker away he kept repeating "Please step back, You dont want to do this". My friends other hand was on his weapon, aimed at the attacker. The attacker kept pressing forward and my friend backed slowly to his apt door with the 5 men following him up the stairs to his door step. He went to retreat into his apartment, and one of the men Held his door open, and stepped into his apartment. At this point, my friend drew his weapon to a low ready position and stated "One more step, and I will shoot you." The attacked looked at the gun, then my friend and said "You think im afraid of a BB gun?", To which my friend Replied, "One more step, and you are going to find out what it is". The attacker retreated, my friend closed/locked his door, and proceeded to call the PD and inform them of what happened incase they decided to call the police and say my friend had brandished a weapon. The police said the moment the attacker(s) removed their belts and wrapped them around their nuckles he could have drawn/fired, and again would have been justified when the individual held the door open and stepped into his apt.


just because you might be JUSTIFIED to pull your weapon and USE it, Doesn't mean you HAVE to.
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Old July 28, 2010, 05:58 AM   #41
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just because you might be JUSTIFIED to pull your weapon and USE it, Doesn't mean you HAVE to.
Still more proof that you don't have to shoot every time you draw. Try to be justified, certainly be ready to use it if no other option remains, but by all means don't shoot when you pull if they quit.
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Old July 30, 2010, 01:12 AM   #42
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Hammerstrike, thank you for that horrendous story (horrendous because you had to, and have to continue to live with it). Thanks to you though, your family is safe because of what you did. I pray that something like that never happens to you again, and I also pray that you don't live each day second guessing or having nightmares or worrying about those two people. Your child and wife are safe and alive thanks to you. God bless them and you for keeping them alive.
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Old July 30, 2010, 09:31 AM   #43
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Hammerstrike, do Texas Attorneys use paragraphs? I would like to read your post. Not have my eyeballs explode.
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Old July 30, 2010, 10:09 AM   #44
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So, if the 5 attackers did not previously know or have the intellect to deduce where he lived from where he was coming from, he lead 5 admittedly violent and aggressive assailants INTO his HOME before ever drawing his weapon or establishing a solid threat of lethal force?

Boy, I hope they don't hang out there often/hold a grudge/attack him in his sleep/rob, vandalize, assault, or murder him in his own home at a later date/jump him with a weapon more lethal than a leather belt/attack his family when he's not home/etc...

If 5 assailants threaten you and begin to surround you, you arm yourself. If you don't, you're stupid. Even if you don't happen to have a gun or knife on you as you should; you should look quickly for a rock/bottle, take off YOUR belt/jacket, pick up ANYTHING you can use to bludgeon, throw, cut, or stab. Outnumbered 5 to 1 I'm not taking any chances and I sure wouldn't let myself get surrounded by them before I did anything to indicate my intent to defend myself other than continue to question their conviction to my impending assault.

I also don't exactly understand this line:
Quote:
Firmly with one hand out holding the attacker away he kept repeating "Please step back, You don't want to do this". My friends other hand was on his weapon, aimed at the attacker.
How would he have a "holstered" weapon "aimed at the attacker"?

In this case, your friend is a shining example of the adage, "it's better to be lucky than good." These 5 guys that were surrounding him could have probably taken him out at any time before he could draw his weapon and get a shot off. Surely before he could get 5 off that all hit them individually directly in the head; most likely from beyond his peripheral before he even noticed it (if that was their intent). Too many tactical mistakes here to count make this a shining example of what NOT to do. For future reference, this doesn't exactly paint your friend in a favorable light other than his extreme moral apprehension to threaten or take a life- (which is admirable in it's own sense)- at a marked increase in the threat to his own life.

JMHO,
~LT
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Old July 30, 2010, 10:39 AM   #45
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I won't retell my story as the thread I started about it got about 3 pages of idiots crying about how I had screwed up by not taking the lives of two drunk kids.

Quote:
There are NO ABSOLUTES in any given threat scenario that tell me you shoot when you draw no matter what. And there are plenty of incidents of the weapon presentation ending a dangerous situation peacefully.
Yep.
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Old July 30, 2010, 12:47 PM   #46
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LordTeo, I was thinking the same thing when I read that story...I love the part about holding back the other guy with one hand....thats hilarious....anyways, this is a great thread...
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Old July 30, 2010, 01:46 PM   #47
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Only once, man stole my neighbor’s car and less than 10 hours later was in a gas station less than 3 blocks (residential aria) from where it was stolen.
I never actually pointed the gun at him, I only showed it to him and walked him into the gas station and asked the owner to call police. He became very agreeable with my demands.
The only person that gave me any trouble was the man’s sister, but another person in the store that could have made a football tackle helped me hold the man in the store.
The sister left without the car. Some of the things she called me was very unlady like.
One of the neighbor’s boys later asked what I would have done if he would have started running. I disappointed them by saying “wave goodbye.”
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Old August 5, 2010, 07:46 AM   #48
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One of the neighbor’s boys later asked what I would have done if he would have started running. I disappointed them by saying “wave goodbye.”
Disappointed by the proper decision. Its funny how emotion plays into situations at times.

I have a DVR camera system at my home. Someone had tossed a large lime rock from our landscape at our house causing minor damage to the porch floor and paint. It turned out to be a group of youths who had also moved my neighbors garbage can to my front yard and one of them entered my property and checked my truck door to see if it was open. We were on vacation. My wife was very "emotional" LoL and wanted to lay in wait to ambush them.

Someone invades or steals your property and or damages it and it is very emotional. Cooler heads and restraint is a must when bringing firearms into the picture.
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Old August 5, 2010, 08:29 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by threegun
Cooler heads and restraint is a must when bringing firearms into the picture.
After working with you for what now, 16 years, I can say, with great comfort BTW, you'll be the first to clear leather / plastic when the situation gets ticklish. I prefer to partner with someone who doesn't need to mull it over first. So I don't know about all this restraint talk. LOL.
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Old August 5, 2010, 09:11 AM   #50
Tabdog
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An old guy comes to my door. He wants to use my phone to
call the cops. He said this big guy cut his phone line and the
line of a young lady that he was stalking. The old man was
trying to help the girl out and the bad guy was out to get
his way. I new the old guy and did not want to see him get
hurt.

As he called the cops, I pocketed a 9mm KelTec P11.

We went out side. When we got out there, the young lady
came out.

Then, from the dark bushes, out comes this huge guy, about
280 pounds and at least 6'5". He looked 10' tall to me.

He started cussing at the old guy.

Then he started at the old like he was going to hunt him!!!

I pulled my pistol and cocked it.

That sound stopped the guy dead in his tracks.

I never actually pointed it at him because he stopped.

He then cussed and pointed his finger at the old guy and said
he was going to get him!!!

He walked across the street and mounted a big Harley and
thundered off.

The police showed up and we could still hear that loud Harley
in the distance.

I got out of there. I did not have a permit at that time.

Sense then, I have been attacked while metal detecting. I did
not have a weapon, but I defended myself with my digger. But
I was bruised and out of commission for a while. If I had had
even a 22, I could have kept myself from being hurt. he was
just a junky lookin for a fix.

That changed my opinion about carrying a weapon.

I also realize I am not Dirty Harry. There may be a time that a
person will need lots of stopping power, but in my every day
life, a 32 auto will do just fine 99.9% of the time. Running
works more often than that.

Considering I am 61 and only needed it twice, (real bad), I see
little need to weight myself down with a slab of iron.

I carry most of the time now. I keep a bigger gun in my car.

I keep a 12 gauge Remington pump at home, as well as a revolver
and more if I need it.

Take care,

Tabdog
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