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Old July 14, 2010, 01:11 AM   #51
sigxder
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BTW I saw a special on the attempted murder of Ronald Reagan. In the special they made it very clear they almost lost Reagan because they had a hell of a time finding the bullet because of the erratic course it took. No disrespect to the dead but Robert Kennedy was also done in by a .22 with multiple head shots. Nasty but they work.
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Old July 14, 2010, 01:50 AM   #52
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Years back, decades actually, someone wrote that the .22 L.R. round has likely killed more people than any other. Over the years this somehow became, or morphed into, it for sure has killed more than any other round. No one has kept any figures on it. No one actually knows for sure, but it is quite possible that it has.

For two reasons I think; it is the most common round used internationally and particularly here. The other reason being that people underestimate it. It is extremely common to hear of people being shot while "fooling" around with a .22. Cuz it's "just a .22". Another factor involved is that the paraffin lube used on the .22 now and in the past, promotes infections like nobodies business and for many, many years a good many folks died of these infections particularly in places where doctors were scarce and in the years before antibiotics. It often took and takes days to die. Another factor is this....22 handguns are about the cheapest gun out there. It's been that way for years. A good many folks, who know no better, get a .22 cuz it's cheap and go and shoot someone with it.

The .22 is a useful round for many things but is not so good at self defense. Oh in a pinch it'll do. An ice pick can be handy in a fight but most knife fighters would take something heavier and longer with them to a fight. Somehow with the .22 some folks think it'll do ya, but ask yourself this...

Why do no law enforcement agencies anywhere issue it for carry in a standard sidearm for their officers?

Why do no armies anywhere on earth issue it to line troops as their sidearm or in a rifle? After all if the .22 is good for defense in a handgun ain't it even better for that in a rifle? and if so why not give it to all the soldiers?

If, as a former "big game guide" says...
Quote:
I shot many deer and elk each year that had been wounded and was suffering. Most shots were at 10 yards or under. The 22 will completely penatrate an elks skull when shot broadside. Death was instantanious in nearly all cases after one shot.
If the above is true why not recommend that we all hunt elk with a .22?

If only the "well placed shot" can guarantee a stop than why the .45acp? or the .357 Mag? or the .38 Spl.? Why the 30-06? Or the 30-30?

Could it be that there is something to the idea that a larger, heavier round can do more damage?

Just a few questions for those who feel the .22 is as good as anything else in a fight.

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Last edited by tipoc; July 14, 2010 at 01:56 AM.
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Old July 14, 2010, 06:28 AM   #53
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I don't think anyone here is saying a 22 or a 25 is just as good as something larger. We're just saying the small stuff souldn't be dismissed as toys.
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Old July 14, 2010, 06:50 AM   #54
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Worthless?

I have a nine shot, High Standard, .22 relvolver that has become the gun I take plinking the most. There are many reasons for this. One big one is that rimfire ammo is still a bargain to shoot, Another reason is that I am getting pretty good with it.

I am now able to consistently hit soda can size targets at twenty five yards off hand. Trust me, this is a big deal for me. If I use a rest, dirt clods at one hundred yards are easy targets.

Here is my question.

I am out in the desert in the middle of nowhere and some jerk attempts to harm me. I have a .22 revolver with nine shots, am I completely SOL? If I can keep my wits about me, at defensive range, I know I could put all nine shots into someones face. Shouldn't that slow someone down?

I grew up on a small farm. I witnessed many cows drop to a single .22 shot to the noggin. Granted, the range was short and the conditions were perfect, but it is amazing to see a creature the size of a cow drop like a sack of potatos from one tiny bullet. My dad made sure that us kids witnessed this at least once. He wanted to impress upon us that damage that even a small round can do.

It worked.
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Old July 14, 2010, 06:58 AM   #55
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BTW I saw a special on the attempted murder of Ronald Reagan. In the special they made it very clear they almost lost Reagan because they had a hell of a time finding the bullet because of the erratic course it took.
This is nothing particularly unique to a .22, but a comon issue with bullet wounds.

Reagan almost died a second time due to infection.

Quote:
No disrespect to the dead but Robert Kennedy was also done in by a .22 with multiple head shots. Nasty but they work.
Robert Kennedy was shot once in the head and twice in the torso. Supposedly all of the shots were fired at extremely short range.

Quote:
I don't think anyone here is saying a 22 or a 25 is just as good as something larger. We're just saying the small stuff souldn't be dismissed as toys.
Who here is dismissing the calibers as toys?
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Old July 14, 2010, 06:58 AM   #56
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Too many people think that because one round can do the job better the other round can't do the job at all.
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Old July 14, 2010, 10:23 AM   #57
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As already pointed out, I'll take chances with a 25 in my pocket any day over a large cal that can't be packed. Living in Florida and dressing in swim trunks and t-shirts puts a different perspective on comfortable concealment. Sure, fanny packs are seen here but it's a dead giveaway that you are concealing...something I don't want anyone to be thinking. The real question here in Florida about 22 & 25 cals should be how often do you want to carry...most of the time or some of the time?
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Old July 14, 2010, 12:09 PM   #58
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These are mug guns. Go for the head, multiple times.

But a .38spl is still better.
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Old July 14, 2010, 02:09 PM   #59
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Too many people think that because one round can do the job better the other round can't do the job at all.
And too many people think they are going to get more than one shot off in a defensive situation or that their shots will be extremely well place.

Quote:
As already pointed out, I'll take chances with a 25 in my pocket any day over a large cal that can't be packed. Living in Florida and dressing in swim trunks and t-shirts puts a different perspective on comfortable concealment. Sure, fanny packs are seen here but it's a dead giveaway that you are concealing...something I don't want anyone to be thinking.
Here we have the classic difference of "can't" and "won't." You won't carry anything larger because you won't wear a pair of shorts with better pockets or maybe with a decent belt. You won't wear a t-shirt that will properly conceal a larger gun. Obviously, you aren't swimming with a .25 in your pocket so why are you bothering with wearing swim trunks?
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Old July 14, 2010, 03:04 PM   #60
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Quote:
Obviously, you aren't swimming with a .25 in your pocket so why are you bothering with wearing swim trunks?
Because he might get embarassed and/or arrested if he goes swimming without his swim trunks?....



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Old July 14, 2010, 07:06 PM   #61
billcarey
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[QUOTE][Here we have the classic difference of "can't" and "won't." You won't carry anything larger because you won't wear a pair of shorts with better pockets or maybe with a decent belt. You won't wear a t-shirt that will properly conceal a larger gun. Obviously, you aren't swimming with a .25 in your pocket so why are you bothering with wearing swim trunks?
/QUOTE]

You're clueless and obviously don't spend most of you days playing around the waterfront, golfing or being active where carrying a gun is restrictive. When I take my dogs for a walk in the woods behind my house everyday I certainly don't dress up to carry a 357 for it...but the 25 fits nicely in my front pocket. I'm a 62yr old retired guy who lives in a very safe area. Carrying a gun of any caliber is overkill in 99.999% of the places I go everyday...but I conceal a 357 when I feel like it. I hope you have better judgement about pulling a gun on someone than you showed here about me carrying a 25. Frigging clueless.
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Old July 14, 2010, 07:38 PM   #62
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My best friend killed himself with a .25 acp. So they work.
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Old July 14, 2010, 08:56 PM   #63
johnwilliamson062
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I believe the stat is by caliber not cartridge, at least the rendition I saw. There are a whole lot of 22 cal cartridges.
Keep in mind the person may have died hours, days, or even weeks later. Many fatal shots with a 22lr will not slow someone down all that much.
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Old July 14, 2010, 08:57 PM   #64
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Quote:
witnessed many cows drop to a single .22 shot to the noggin. Granted, the range was short and the conditions were perfect
...and there you have it.
In the Real World, the range will be whatever it is...and the conditions will not be perfect.

We are not shooting fish in a barrel here.

The reason "some of us" carry a .45 is exactly that. You cannot count on perfect shot placement, optimal penetration. None of the variables are guaranteed to go your way...so in a worst case scenario, you eliminate as many of the variables as you can.

As has been stated so many times, this comes down to "carry the largest, most powerful caliber you can shoot quickly and accurately"...because that is your best insurance policy.

For me, that is a .45 acp.

YMMV.
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Old July 15, 2010, 12:56 AM   #65
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If I had to carry a .22 or a .25 ACP revolver, I would choose the .22, but when I did have to choose between a .22 semauto, or a .25 ACP semiauto in a back up gun, I chose the .25, because it was dependable, something none of my half dozen .22LR pistols weren't.
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Old July 15, 2010, 06:15 AM   #66
roy reali
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Question Repeat

Please respond to this.

If someone put nine rimfire rounds into someones face at seven yards, how effective should it be. I mentioned a cow in a previous post. A cow's head is slightly harder and a cows brain is slightly smaller then ours. Head butt a cow and and see who wins. Anyway, a projectile that can penetrate the skull of a half ton animal should be able to penetrate the skull of an animal that is one-fourth of that, at least in theory.

If one had to use a .22 handgun for self-defense, which type of projectile would you recommend?
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Old July 15, 2010, 08:31 AM   #67
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A piece of lead of any size hitting someone at 500 feet per sec will do the job.
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Old July 15, 2010, 09:10 AM   #68
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If one had to use a .22 handgun for self-defense, which type of projectile would you recommend?
I recommend any commonplace 40gr round-nose high-velocity round that functions reliably in your gun.

I don't endorse hyper-velocity and high-velocity hollow points because a pistol barrel won't get them moving fast enough to expand consistently, and the bullets are lighter. Since the bullets are already very small, you need every bit of weight for adequate penetration.
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Old July 15, 2010, 10:42 AM   #69
tipoc
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Interesting...there was a shooting out my way with a .22 just the other day...

http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mateo...nclick_check=1

Note that the shooter also went to the hospital.

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Old July 15, 2010, 10:58 AM   #70
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I don't endorse hyper-velocity and high-velocity hollow points because a pistol barrel won't get them moving fast enough to expand consistently, and the bullets are lighter.
That might be so, unfortunately the only 100% reliable cartridge I've shot out of the pocket Beretta is a hyper-velocity.

Sometimes, regardless of effectiveness, I just prefer to carry a .22. Sometimes I prefer to carry a Hi Cap 9mm, or a .38 J frame. I don't plan on trading in my .22 for a pocket .380. Even if I get a Seecamp, or whatever, I will probably carry the .22 sometimes. I like it and I don't live in a war zone.
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Old July 15, 2010, 01:35 PM   #71
billcarey
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I wasn't gong to post this but the big caliber crew is missing the total meaning of effectivness that has nothing to do with one shot stopping power. I have two personal examples and they are 100% true...

A druggy looking street thug walking down the street with a baseball bat asked me for $40 and I said no. He was approx 30' away and starting walking toward me with the bat raised while telling me he was going to F me up. I pulled the 25 out of my back pocket and he retreated (and busted the windshield out of a parked car). I called 911 and he was arrested around the corner about 5 minutes later. The cops told me he was a know criminal and herion addict. I was NOT arrested (Palm Bay, Fl PD).

I had another bazarr situation happen in 1985 with an undercover Brevard County, Florida, Deputy. The short of it is he was dressed like a dirt bag, verbally threatened bodily harm while charging toward me and I drew the 25 out of my back right pocket. I did not shoot but would have in about 2 seconds at point blank. He stopped and identified himself. Then I found out it was a case of mistaken identity. He thought I was a bad guy they had been chasing. He took my name, called it in and took the gun serial # but did NOT arrest me saying my actions were justified. Otherwise I would have been charged with a felony and sent to prison. He did NOT think I was armed because all I was wearing was a pair of shorts...no shoes and no shirt. This episode shook me up and still bothers me but it is what it is.

Both of these situations happened on my DRIVEWAY and were related to a criminal who lived around the block from us. He and his cronies were eventually arrested and left the neighborhood.
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Old July 15, 2010, 01:58 PM   #72
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Real-world experience

I have covered many shootings. Long guns did the job every time. Handguns not so much.

Two I've covered in the last couple of years involved nonfatal handgun shootings to the head (brain injuries)-- .380 ACP and .40 S&W. I covered a homicide in the Saltville, Va. area sometime 2001-2004 where two .25 rounds to the center of mass were fatal. I covered another slaying in Abingdon during that timeframe where the victim had a contact gunshot wound to the head with a Ruger .45 automatic -- no exit wound. Another case I covered this year involved a .357 Mag to the head. The trauma was remarkable, including so-called hydrostatic shock that caused skull fracturing. The JHP round worked as advertised, but came out sideways.
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Old July 15, 2010, 02:29 PM   #73
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I wasn't gong to post this but the big caliber crew is missing the total meaning of effectivness that has nothing to do with one shot stopping power.
Mr. Carey,

You can carry whatever you like. I know that the .22 caliber as a self defense round is less effective than others. Personally I do not advise anyone to rely on it for that purpose if they have an option. In the same size guns (pretty much a Walther TPH is quite small) larger and more effective rounds are available. That does not make me either part of any "big caliber crew" or an advocate of "one shot stopping power."

I strongly advise against folks believing that the appearance of a gun is an automatic deterrent or expecting it to be a deterrent, or in any way planning on it being a deterrent. It may be it also may not be. Plan for the "may not be" part of that.

Expect and plan that even 6 or 7 rounds of a powerful handgun cartridge will not stop a person. If you plan on that you will be less shocked when it happens. No round is a guaranteed stopper.

But some rounds are more likely to stop or stun than others. The .22 l.r. is low on that list.

In the link I posted above a person thought he would stop his neighbors from making noise by intimidating them with a .22. He thought the sight of the gun would scare them into "acceptable behavior". It did not. It angered them. A fight ensued. He shot two of them with the .22. One of the men he shot took the gun away from him and beat him so badly that he went to the hospital. The others held the shooter while the fella who did the beating walked to find a cop.

Folks are regularly shot and stopped with .22s, .25s and .32s but in violent encounters these rounds are much less likely to stop someone (or slow them down enough that a "stopping shot" can be delivered) than with more useful defensive calibers.

Sure a few head shots with a .22 can most certainly stop someone. It'll kill a cow. But the cow is standing still and will likely not be shooting back. As Mr. Wilson of Foster City found out, it's hard to shoot a fella in the head when he's kicking your behind and that's after you've shot him in the belly.

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Last edited by tipoc; July 15, 2010 at 02:43 PM.
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Old July 15, 2010, 03:57 PM   #74
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If the above is true why not recommend that we all hunt elk with a .22?
Read carefully the first sentance in the quoted part, the animals were already shot or sick and suffering. He didnt hunt them with the gun.

Quote:
My best friend killed himself with a .25 acp. So they work.
My brother did this with a .22, been dead awhile now but we still miss him.

A .22 isnt the end all round, but it isnt something to nonchalantly dismiss if aimed at ya.

My friend Mike died from a tiny little spider bite on his ankle.....
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Old July 15, 2010, 05:54 PM   #75
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^^^
And spiders are easier to conceal than a .25
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