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Old July 12, 2010, 11:59 PM   #26
Rampant_Colt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieDaGreat
im thinking alot of you guys are mis under estimating the .22 lr... the .22 is notorious to bounce around inside the body when it hits bones... there been cases were a bullet enters a leg and gets pulled out in a different part of the body.... me personally i rather carry my 9mm with sd rounds but the .22 is known to do wat its supposed to do...
Got any facts to back that claim? ..Is it similiar to how a .22LR bounces around the brain like a pinball because it doesn't have enough energy to penetrate both sides of the skull?
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Old July 13, 2010, 12:50 AM   #27
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Had a small auto stuck in my gut by the guy sitting at the next bar stool.

I didn't feel like scoffing at his choice of cartridge.

As with any tool if used appropriately it does its job.
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Old July 13, 2010, 06:38 AM   #28
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Sure the 22 can kill but can it stop the assailant RIGHT NOW?
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Old July 13, 2010, 06:57 AM   #29
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The .22 LR or .25 ACP in your pocket is a LOT more effective than the .45 ACP at home in the dresser drawer.
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Old July 13, 2010, 06:57 AM   #30
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The 22lr has a nasty habit of being easily deflected.For example Pres Reagan was shot with one It went into the chest cavity , hit a rib and bounced back and punctured his lung.Autopsies of those shot with a 22 are difficult because the bullet , after entering , can be almost anywhere.
There is nothing unique about the characteristic of being deflected off of bone and ending up somewhere else other than on the original entry trajectory. It happens with every caliber. If a twig can deflect a .308 sniper's shot, then nobody should be surprised that a bone could deflect a .22 lr inside the body (and any other round).

People seem to like to mention this deflection issue as if the deflection of a bullet somehow makes it more lethal. People talk about .22 lr rounds bouncing around inside the chest cavity and inside the cranium. In terms of the chest cavity and body, "bouncing" around can just as easily result in being deflected away from vital structures as being deflected into vital structures. In fact, if you are aiming at a vital zone, then deflection can be the absolutely worst thing that can happen to your shot.

So how about all this bouncing around? One almost gets the impression that a .22 lr round gains momentum with deflection as if a deflected round travels further and can hit more organs than a round that isn't deflected. Nothing could be further from the truth. Deflection is detrimental to the bullet's penetrative abilities as energy is tranferred from the bullet to the bone when the bone changes the trajectory of the bullet.

The bullet that hit Reagan was indeed deflected, but it only had 6" of travel inside the body (3 before and 3 after deflection). Had the entry trajectory been different, the round very well may have been deflected out of the body as easily as into the body.
http://encyclopedia.gwu.edu/gwencycl...eagan_Shooting

Note that the .22 lr round that hit Brady did not bounce around inside the skull.
http://cytowic.net/Selected_Articles/Brady/brady.html

A .22 lr round may indeed deflect off of bones. This can and does happen with all calibers. However, the notion of "bouncing around," is just silly. While possible, it would be the rarer exception for a round to "bounce" more than once off of bones, but "bouncing around" implies that it happens and apparently with quite some regularity. That simply isn't the case with .22 lr or any other caliber.

As for the effectiveness of the .22 lr througout history, causing deaths does not indicate effictiveness. Nasopharyngitis kills nearly 1000 people a year (known) and has been around probably as long as people have. However, the long history of deaths is meaningless in regard to it being effective. In the US alone, nasopharyngitis results in 75-100 million doctor's visits. Sure, it can be lethal, but lethality is extremely rare. .22 lr can be lethal as well, but a lot more people walk (not carried) into emergency rooms with .22 lr gunshot rooms than probably any other caliber. Reagan did.
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Old July 13, 2010, 07:12 AM   #31
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I don't have a link to the story, . . . but a couple decades ago, . . . and I think the guy was an Arnold Swartzy body builder, . . . in Columbus, Ohio, . . . there was an attempted robbery where the robber didn't make out too well.

I remember for sure that the robber shot the guy either 2 or 3 times, and it was in the back, . . . with a .25 auto.

The guy got mad then, . . . took the .25 from the robber, . . . and seriously deformed his face with the butt of the gun.

We all laughed about it as the robber went to the hospital with some serious if not life threatening injuries (and stayed a while), . . . and the guy he shot had the .25 bullets picked out of his back in the ER, . . . treated and released.

That was when I lost all my hankering for a .25 forever.

May God bless,
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Old July 13, 2010, 07:12 AM   #32
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Have we covered all the cliches yet? Let's see....

- "Shot placement is key"...check
- "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"...check
- "A .22 in your pocket beats a .45 left at home"...check

Hmmm...I don't see "It's better than a pointy stick" yet.

Am I missing anything else?
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Old July 13, 2010, 07:25 AM   #33
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I spoke to a new neighbor the other day about her work as a nurse in the local city hospital. I asked her about some of the worst stuff she saw and surprisingly it was when she dealt with a woman with gunshot wound to the head. She said the bullet was lodged in this woman's forehead w/o penetrating so I assumed it must be a .25 round. They proceeded cutting off her clothing against the protests of the patient, and low and behold wads of cash were coming out everywhere. I don't know of any other round that is so ineffective.
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Old July 13, 2010, 02:48 PM   #34
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There must be some reason for all the .25 stories about inadequate penetration. The only thing I can figure out is that people were using older guns with corroded/shot out barrels, or they are lying. My personal observations over many years are that the .25 auto, fired from a gun in good repair, has excellent penetration.
Many (possibly all) handgun calibers have been known to fail to penetrate a skull. These failures are the exception, rather than the norm.
The fact is that macho guys, "experts," instructors, cops, etc. have been telling people that .22s and .25s (and .32s) just don't work. The problem is that these calibers have been working for over 100 years anyway. While they aren't the best things for defense, they are still some of the smallest guns made. To this day, no one has made a .32 or .380 as small as a Browning .25 or a Bernardelli .25/.22. It's impossible to do so.
Most handgun calibers are not "instant one-shot stoppers," so the ultra small guns are still viable. Nothing short of a central nervous system shot can instantly incapacitate consistently.
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Old July 13, 2010, 03:23 PM   #35
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I haven't read many of the replies. My take on the ideal concealed carry pistol is: 1) You have to have one. 2) It must be affordable. 3) It must be concealable. For many folks that comes down to a .25 or .22.
I'll add: Any gun to be useful must be in the hands of someone who actually shoots and practices with it occasionally. A .22 is far and away more affordable to shoot and infinitely more likely to be practiced with.
And, the biggie in my theory: (drum roll please) No one, even dumb bad guys, wants to be shot with anything regardless of caliber. Most defensive scenarios involve the potential victim defending himself by simply producing a gun and the attacker flees. I believe the mere presence of a gun in the hands of someone willing to use it for legitimate defense is a very effective deterrent. Yes, I'm sure many will disagree with me, that's OK, I respect the other opinions. Three times in my life I have had to produce a gun against the possibility of my life being taken. All three times I produced a .22 pistol and the potential attackers fled quickly. Not a final clincher argument, I agree. But I'm still here to tell the story and that is where I stand with little pistol out of sight.
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Old July 13, 2010, 03:28 PM   #36
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Bill -

Great points, I love the little Colt vest pocket .25 ACP pistols (own two of them), you can carry/stash them anywhere.
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Old July 13, 2010, 04:04 PM   #37
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Quote:
Have we covered all the cliches yet? Let's see....

- "Shot placement is key"...check
- "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"...check
- "A .22 in your pocket beats a .45 left at home"...check

Hmmm...I don't see "It's better than a pointy stick" yet.

Am I missing anything else?
You missed one cliché that has already been used...
- "Mafia/CIA/KGB/MI5/Mossad/(insert arbitrary elite spy agency or military counter-intelligence unit name) assassins prefer it because it's so quiet"... check
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Old July 13, 2010, 04:19 PM   #38
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Quote:
Pres Reagan was shot with one
Quote:
The sixth and final bullet ricocheted off the side of the limousine and hit the president in his left underarm, grazing a rib and lodging in his lung, stopping nearly an inch from his heart.[
Penetration was good even out of a short barrel, the 22 he used was supposed to blow up as they were varminter rounds. If the 22 had reached the velocity needed regan may not have survived.

Quote:
It had been loaded with six "Devastator"-brand .22LR cartridges, which contained small lead azide explosive charges designed to explode on contact. The rounds were not manufactured in the U.S.; any bullet which contained actual explosives would have been classified as an illegal explosive device under U.S. federal law at the time that Hinckley purchased them. All six bullets failed to explode.

I say the 22 performed great here, if it had hit regan without the richochet who can tell what it would have done as far as damage.

I see the 22 as the round that changed Americas gun laws, a 22.....lead to the brady bill gun bans etc. a 22 something to think about next time you fondle the 500 magnum
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Old July 13, 2010, 04:30 PM   #39
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Don’t know why the .25 doesn’t get any respect at all. I don’t know anyone actually shot by one, but I have one and it delivers a respectable hole downrange (penetration-wise) and a lot of noise at the launch.

I do have a good friend who used to carry one in her purse while she was in nursing school who was accosted by a BG in a dark mall parking lot one night and he quickly exited the scene when she produced the .25. So, in cases like this, a .25 is as good as any (of course, an airsoft would have worked, too, I guess ).

My .25 is a Titan and I’ve kept it for the past 20 years or so for three main reasons; 1.) It has, so far, been 100% reliable, 2.) It has been remarkably (and acceptably) accurate, and, 3.) I can’t get anything for it anyway.

FWIW, I have been shot by a .22 (ND to the R leg @ age 14 by an erstwhile friend). Not my most fun experience, but I did, after a makeshift bandage, manage to walk about a mile and a half home.

I don’t carry the .25 often at all, but I don’t feel bad when I do carry it.

Best,

Will
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Old July 13, 2010, 05:08 PM   #40
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My .25 is a Titan and I’ve kept it for the past 20 years or so for three main reasons; 1.) It has, so far, been 100% reliable, 2.) It has been remarkably (and acceptably) accurate, and, 3.) I can’t get anything for it anyway.
Wow....you have a Titan for the same reasons I do....

Also, when loaded with European FMJ ammo (Fiocci or S&B), it will penetrate a 2x4 at 10 yards.....seems like that would leave an ouchie in soft tissue....
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Old July 13, 2010, 05:57 PM   #41
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when the 25 acp was popular the gun press was full of storiies about its failure to perform. there were also a lot of assertions that the 22 rimfire had killed more people than etc. Oddly enough, now that the 25 auto is way back on the back burner, the stories getting told are frequently about the instant stops it has accomplished.
It would be hard to sort out any facts on the subject because much of the sturm und drang was just blowhards trying to blow harder than the other blowhards.
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Old July 13, 2010, 06:27 PM   #42
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I'll take the 25acp over the 22lr in a pocket pistol. The ballistics normally cited for 22lr are from a rifle, or at least a target pistol, not a pocket pistol. 25acp fmj rounds can penetrate vitals and tend to be more reliable with their rimless centerfire design. I've seen some cheap 25 autos that were very reliable. Not my first choice in a defensive arm, but they serve a purpose.
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Old July 13, 2010, 06:40 PM   #43
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I remember Baby Brownings from the 60s being very reliable. Recent ball loads have been less so. I found that the CCI Blazer ball and cci gold dot jhp are reliable in this pistol. Both rounds have a visible crimp where most ball ammo does not. As a result, the prominent rim of the ejecting empty is prone to slam into the mouth of the case of the next round up. On top of that, several of the generic ball loads produce velocities of less than 600 fps. I set up to reload the cartridge and found that the Remington ball load became reliable when I applied a substantial crimp- a practice I follow with my reloads. The heavy crimp jumps the remington velocities from 690s to the low 700s.
Both the Hornady and Speer reloading manuals are pretty negative about reloading the cartridge saying the small case capacity will lead to wide velocity variations with small charge variations and that it would be very easy to double charge a case. Neither proves to be the case. Ball loads using a lee die set supplied dipper that throws 1.4 grains of bullseye are very consistent and there is no possible way the case will hold a double charge. I made a dipper for the 35 grain gold dot at the speer maximum of 1.7 grains and got good consistency with it also.

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Old July 13, 2010, 07:53 PM   #44
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It wouldn't surprise me at all if the .22 has killed more people than any other cartridge. I'm not saying it has, but it wouldn't surprise me. That's because its death toll would have to include:

1. deliberate use for self-defense, including when the .22 was used because nothing else was available. Taking into consideration that the .22 rimfire is the most common cartridge out there, and (at least in .22 Short form) has been around longer than any other cartridge still available.

2. Playing around and getting stupid with guns, when the .22 is also most likely to be used by beginners.

3. Didn't know it was loaded, see above.

Whether it's any good for self defense is moot when trying to decide if the .22 will kill, because the point of self defense is not killing; it is to stop the other guy RIGHT NOW. If the bad guy drops dead from the .22 shot but only after he's taken the gun from you and beaten you to death with it, he's still dead and the .22 is therefore still, by definition, deadly; but it sure wasn't a very good defense weapon!

I suppose fast cars and cigarettes are even deadlier, 'tho I haven't thought on trying to use them as defensive weapons. I'm trying to figure how that would work. "Here, smoke two packs of these a day for twenty years and come back to finish your robbery then." I don't think that's going to fly.
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Old July 13, 2010, 07:58 PM   #45
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Lethal but not a fight stopper

I heard the same information years ago. As it was explained to me if the .22 round did penetrate into the body it tended to ricochet of everything it hit, and did a little damage to many different organs and possibly veins and or arties. True or not, who knows, but it makes sense to me.
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Old July 13, 2010, 08:00 PM   #46
Bill DeShivs
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No handgun cartridge can guarantee a stop unless a CNS hit is made. A small caliber can do this almost as well as a larger one.
A heart shot is not always immediately disabling, nor is a lung, liver, kidney shot.
Pain will stop most people from doing whatever it is that got them shot. Fear of dying will make people stop most of the time. A good CNS shot will shut them down immediately.
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Old July 13, 2010, 09:36 PM   #47
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When I was a big game guide all I was allowed to carry was a 22. I chose a pre war Colt Woodsman. I shot many deer and elk each year that had been wounded and was suffering. Most shots were at 10 yards or under. The 22 will completely penatrate an elks skull when shot broadside. Death was instantanious in nearly all cases after one shot.
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Old July 13, 2010, 09:45 PM   #48
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30-30remchester: True....but a .22lr from a 4"+ barrel is a different creature than from a 2" barrel or less.....

Just sayin'.....
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Old July 13, 2010, 10:35 PM   #49
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An awful lot of speculation and opinion, and vitually no experience. Who wants to be shot with a .22 or .25? Not me. Assassins have used the .22 with great success over the years. And a surprise shot to the face with a .25 will make someone look elsewhere immediately. A hit to the eye is probably instant death. A real killer with a .22 is to be feared infinitely more than some armchair hobbyist with a hand cannon.
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Old July 14, 2010, 01:06 AM   #50
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Another reason for the large number of shootings with the .22 and .25. Both come in cheap guns. One of my friends a SWAT officer in a large city put it into perspective. A large portion of crimes are commmited by drug addicts to get money for a fix. If they have a Glock, Ruger, Beretta or whatever they can sell it for several hundred dollars. They can then buy a "pot metal" .22 or .25 to use to rob people with. The rest of the money goes for drugs. People don't usually care what kind of gun they are being robbed with. Rather a .22 or a .45 they don't want to be shot.
A few years back a nurse friend of mine told me of a terrible instance of the use of a .22. One of her friends was a nurse that visited the home bound to take care of them. She was waiting for a bus to give her a ride home. A junkie produced a small .22 to rob her. She gave up her wallet. When he saw that she only had around $10.00 on her he went into a rage and shot her. Known by some as "knee-capping". Messed her up really bad. Never under or over estimate the power of a handgun. Holes through vital parts of the human anatomy do nasty things. Even little holes. Think of an ice pick to the back of the head in the base of the brain. The "primitive brain" contols breathing and the like. Also connects to the spine. Or any bullet through the
eyeball and it's all over. Fast, multiple, well placed rounds from a .22 or .25 will end things fast.
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