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Old July 12, 2010, 08:34 PM   #26
TeamSinglestack
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Crouching tigress, hidden makarov...
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Old July 12, 2010, 09:35 PM   #27
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Dirty Harry has nothing over these Chinese cops, that is for sure!

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Old July 12, 2010, 10:13 PM   #28
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Looked kinda "iffy" to me.

She was lucky on several counts:

1. showed her hand early and he didn't notice
2. drew and nearly raised the gun over her head ala "Hollywood Cowboy" shots
3. hostage's head was extremely close to the perps as he moved backward

Some days the cards fall in your favor, and it was her day, I guess.
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Old July 13, 2010, 12:15 AM   #29
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One thing I will point out about China is that they are fanatic about avoiding or squelching trouble, chaos or disorder ("luan"). If you are a threat to public order, you will be dealt with severely.

If you offer this threat by endangering the public (holding a girl at knife point), or challenging the government (Tian An Men), you should expect to die. If you think cops should shoot until the threat is eliminated, then think of the official view as being, "If you did it once, you may do it again. If you are breathing, you are a threat."

Disorder in SUPPORT of the government will still bring you grief. When the US announced the sale of additional F16s to Taiwan (1992ish), university students in Beijing protested in front of the US Embassy, in vocal support of their national government's published opinion. They were hauled into the Chinese diplomatic police guard hut and beaten.

Protest=disorder=bad=official response.

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Old July 13, 2010, 08:56 PM   #30
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It's easy to monday morning quarterback.

However...when she first shot the perp he fell back with the girl. He was still a threat. She had no way of knowing, at that time, where the bullet hit him or if it even him, she had to keep on shooting.
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Old July 13, 2010, 09:34 PM   #31
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Hello, I am a sometime lurker of this forum and since Chinese is my first language (I am TAIWANESE not Chinese!) Though I don't have audio I can read the running points. I can fill in some of the blanks here.

1. The uniformed policeman drank some coke from the bottle to assure the hostage-taker the coke was not laced. In fact, it had been laced with sedatives.

2. What escalated the situation was when he stabbed his hostage in the arm to threaten the armed policeman and camera crew approaching him; this occurred at roughly 2:30-2:45. Previously the criminal demanded to talk to the media but he became very upset when he saw an armed officer was escorting the crew.

4. Apparently he cut or stabbed his hostage on the skin when he got excited, as you can see her shirt was stained with blood.

5. The hostage-taker said there are people in many Chinese southern provinces who would like to see him dead. The hold up occurred in a bank. The man might be a criminal on the run or just some dude who owed loan sharks money.

Hope that was helpful.
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Old July 14, 2010, 08:17 AM   #32
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One thing to remember is that, in Communist China, the authorities have a lot more "leeway" in handling situations than those LEO's in free nations....

...not sure I'd want to see American cops carrying out executions...but everything before that is applaudable....
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Old July 14, 2010, 08:31 AM   #33
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Thank you very much Triple C. That was indeed helpful.
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Old July 14, 2010, 09:24 AM   #34
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Triple C

May I add my thanks for your contribution?

And do you see in the report any indication of how long the hostage was held before the policewoman took action? The title of the thread is " . . . in seconds," and while her action took only seconds I wonder how long the whole episode was, i.e. how long it took the police to prepare for action, how long they negotiated, the time it took to maneuver the BG into a place where they could shoot, etc. Any insight you can give in that regard is much appreciated.
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Old July 14, 2010, 10:42 AM   #35
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Sorry, but what is the point of letting that puke live. Armed robbery and kidnapping with plenty of witnesses. What would be the point of a trial? So this guy could try and justify his actions with some sob story or claims of insanity (not sure either would help you in China anyway). No, I think a the point he was at, 4 shots worked just fine. We should do that more often here. Like when the cops are chasing come dope dealer who carjacked some innocent person and lead a high speed chase through neighborhoods. They should be able to drive up along side and put one in his ear. You'd see a lot less things like that if you did.
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Old July 14, 2010, 11:39 AM   #36
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Well, unless you're talking about revamping the entire sentencing guidelines for crimes in America, I certainly have a problem with the roadside application of a sentence that the courts themselves couldn't even impose if the perpetrator were apprehended and sent to trial.
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Old July 14, 2010, 12:05 PM   #37
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I think you misunderstand the continued shooting as some kind of deliberate statement as to delivering justice and a sentence. I think it is just an almost automatic response to guarantee a dangerous person will not continue his activity.

Her reaction - laughing a bit - isn't also a business as usual but an emotional release and parasympathetic rebound of sorts. With a touch of an endorphin blast after a succesful aggressive action.
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Old July 14, 2010, 12:18 PM   #38
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Sorry, I was replying specifically to Rattletrap's post above mine, and not the China shooting.

If the death penalty isn't currently imposed in America for dealing dope, carjacking, or reckless driving, then I absolutely have a problem with the police "putting one in his ear" to end the chase.
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Old July 14, 2010, 12:34 PM   #39
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Is there a reason I am not able to view the video? I get a google server error. Anybody else with this problem?

EDIT: Never mind. Working now.
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Old July 14, 2010, 12:46 PM   #40
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If we took out criminals in this manner the "lawyer's" would have a field day but I wish it were the case in the US! Do I want the U.S to be more like China? NO! But, the gangs/terrorists we have in this country need to be taken care of in the same way this guy was! Criminals have more rights then victims do and it's just wrong to let these sick people live out the rest of their lives in jail on our dime! :barf::barf::barf::barf:
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Old July 14, 2010, 12:51 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longdayjake View Post
Is there a reason I am not able to view the video? I get a google server error. Anybody else with this problem?

EDIT: Never mind. Working now.
I had trouble too, a few minutes ago. Anyway, below is a link to a shorter video, with English subtitles.


Chinese policewoman shot hostage taker [English subtitles]
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Old July 14, 2010, 01:35 PM   #42
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I don't know ScottRiqui I think criminals who run from the police should be given a 5 mile time limit to think about how bad they want to run then let a police helicopter with a tow missile end the chase. Why should police let them get away(they broke the law) and why should innocent people driving down the street be put in danger.
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Old July 14, 2010, 01:48 PM   #43
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I'm not trying to change anyone's mind - these are just my opinions. But running from the cops isn't a capital offense (if it were, that would shorten a lot of foot chases considerably), and while the danger to uninvolved innocents in a chase is a real possibility, we don't execute people for what they *might* do -the police don't necessarily wait for the act to be committed, but they at least wait until the offense is imminent. After all, even a simple foot chase could easily end in a hostage situation if there are uninvolved people around - does that mean that the police are justified in shooting any criminal that takes off on foot?

And as for the whole "we'd see a lot less of this kind of thing if the police could just kill the offenders" argument - that's absolutely true, but it's not justification. We'd see a lot less shoplifting if it were a capital offense and subject to on-the-spot execution, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
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Old July 14, 2010, 01:55 PM   #44
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Thanks NATE!!!

Here is a slightly different view, not in English, however...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIlT5y6baps&NR=1
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Old July 14, 2010, 02:04 PM   #45
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Police officers are not always right - just like everyone else. In this country, I think they've already got more than enough discretionary power on when and what kind of force is necessary. This is but one reason why we have courts.
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Old July 14, 2010, 02:15 PM   #46
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In case nobody has said it yet, Welcome to the site Triple C. Don't forget to bookmark us and come back to us reprobates often.

The coke the officer imbibed may also have contributed to her taking the chance she did and her response after. I will not second guess her and in a similar situation I would hope I would have been as efficient.
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Old July 14, 2010, 03:22 PM   #47
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Can we stay with the tactical issue - debating your view of criminal justice and punishment isn't relevant. Nor do we need more attaboys and I wish I was there or could do the same.
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Old July 15, 2010, 09:49 AM   #48
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Quote:
we don't execute people for what they *might* do -the police don't necessarily wait for the act to be committed, but they at least wait until the offense is imminent.
True, but I would equate someone engaging in a hi-speed getaway through a residential neighborhood to someone resisting arrest by waving a gun around in a crowded room. Would a police officer hesitate before shooting someone waving said gun around? Depends on the officer; but I don't think we'd fault him for ending the eminent threat.

Personally, I believe this video illustrates the versatility of a small calliber handgun. Sure with a rifle she could have taken the shot from further away, but with a handgun and an increasing proximity, she can MAKE the shot unstead of waiting to TAKE the shot. And as we saw, the gentlemen may not have stayed down with a single shot. She was able to "make sure" he stayed down. A rifleman would not have been able to do this. The hostage would have been well in the way to block a follow-up shot (or 3); possibly giving him time to take her life in the event of a wound instead of a kill. Instead, she took a small handgun, got in close, and made sure about it. Well done and solid tactics made sure that the only person who got dead was the bad guy.

I see no problem with her tactics. A wise man once said, "Fear the man with one gun." You should do this because a man who wields a single weapon perfectly understands the strengths, weaknesses, and limitations of that weapon and will employ them effectively in any situation, adjusting his tactics accordingly. This woman had a 9x18mm Makarov. She knew she had to get in close. She also understood the ballistic limitations of her small caliber, so she put enough rounds in him to make sure he didn't get up and wasn't a threat. If it was a .45ACP, her tactics very well may have been different.

Solid from my standpoint,
~LT
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Old July 15, 2010, 03:12 PM   #49
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If I understand things right, the Chinese police are part of the People's Revolutionary Army. I'd expect they'd be carrying the standard Army FMJ hardball load. That's not exactly a "manstopper" cartridge.

It could be that we're seeing a difference in training. I don't know what most US PDs are doing nowadays, but the civilian defense courses used to teach "keep pulling the trigger until it doesn't go bang any more." That's how I was taught, anyway.
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Old July 15, 2010, 03:25 PM   #50
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Quote:
I'd expect they'd be carrying the standard Army FMJ hardball load. That's not exactly a "manstopper" cartridge.
Oh no, not again...... sure stopped that dude, or am I missing something here? Any round can be a "manstopper" if used correctly.
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