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Old July 12, 2010, 03:40 PM   #26
rattletrap1970
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Get yourself an affordable infrared thermometer.
Heat the case up, beam it with the thermometer. You'll get a feel for it (that is, the time required to get near the right temp). You don't need to water quench. Brass is not a quench hardening material. Once you take the heat off it will not continue to climb.
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Old July 12, 2010, 03:45 PM   #27
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Can I send you mine too...?

What all this boils down to:

Everyone has their own way of doing things. If it works for you and is safe, great. Just because you do it a certain way does not mean that everyone else has to do it that way. I am very stubborn and hard-headed, and will continue to do it my way NO MATTER WHAT you say....because it is time tested and works. The main thing to take away from this thread is the idea NOT to overheat the brass to a point where the brass becomes too soft. We can all agree on that, right?
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Old July 12, 2010, 04:07 PM   #28
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Quote:
Everyone has their own way of doing things.
My wife uses that line on me all the time.

Quote:
I am very stubborn and hard-headed, and will continue to do it my way NO MATTER WHAT you say
I use that line on my wife all the time.

Quote:
We can all agree on that, right?
and now`yer sounding soundin' like a global warning Democrat !

..
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Old July 12, 2010, 05:54 PM   #29
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LOL!!

Democrat? DEMOCRAT!?!? 'Dem be fightin' words!!!
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Old July 12, 2010, 07:03 PM   #30
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Old July 12, 2010, 07:40 PM   #31
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Peezakilla - " The Norma Gunbugs Guide" 1967
That's a very informative booklet !!
I don't know if they still do but Norma for many years reloaded ammo in Scandinavia.
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Old July 12, 2010, 08:34 PM   #32
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Just bought a copy (1 of 2) from Amazon for $7
( #2 of 2 was $104 !! )





`Never can have too many gun books
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Old July 14, 2010, 01:26 PM   #33
F. Guffey
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Rattletrap1970,


http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...ed+Thermometer

Harbor freight, do not know about the quality, get a warranty.

Mehavey, http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html I agree, the link gives good advise, I make tools I use for annealing out of junk, as I said there are other ways, to disregard the information furnished by the 6mm link is up the individual, that should be an option, I do not make choices for others, I do believe the information used to decide what technique and or method should be accurate, if over thinking it implies I have thought about the options and made a decision based on accurate information, I have to say 'thanks'.

My opinion, Midnightrider had a good start with the 650 degree temperature for annealing, again, the 650 or 660 degree has to do with time, more heat would require less time.

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Old July 14, 2010, 06:32 PM   #34
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Some of you guy's make annealing sound like you need an Engineering degree. It ain't rocket science!
I've been doing it for years with a common propane torch you can buy at any hardware store-the kind with the little one pound throw away bottles.

1.Fire up the propane torch. In a well ventilated and safe area.
2.Heat your brass case until it changes color/starts to glow.Just the neck area.
This is Annealing the metal!
3.Drop heated case into water,oil,or whatever liquid you choose to quench (reharden) the metal.
4.Dry cases however you see fit.
5.Resize the cases.
6.Trim cases if needed.
7.Clean primer pockets.
8.Reload the darn things and go shoot them.

See fella's-It ain't rocket science!

PS-I just annealed about 300 25/06 and 200 308 cases yesterday afternoon,and have reloaded most of them already.
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Old July 14, 2010, 09:03 PM   #35
rattletrap1970
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Umm the only problem is Cartridge Brass can only be annealed by heat. It cannot be hardened except by cold working. The only thing quenching does is cool it quickly. Beneficial that you don't have a bunch of hot brass on your bench, but quenching does nothing unless you are working with Muntz metal, which you are not. Just heat it to between 800 and 1400°F and let it air cool (unless you need it cooler faster).
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Old July 14, 2010, 09:50 PM   #36
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http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm

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Old July 15, 2010, 07:59 AM   #37
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Rattletrap1970, 800 to 1,400 degree Fahrenheit,



"(unless you need it cooler faster)" at those temperatures I would suggest the 'cooler faster' ideal, I am a big fan of controlling heat travel, or put another way I am a big fan of preventing heat from reaching the head of the case and as someone must of said placing the case in a pan of water with 1/3 of the case submerged prevents damage to the head of the case.



Again, I do not recommending air cooling.

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Old July 15, 2010, 09:20 AM   #38
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Among metals and metal alloys, brass is a pretty poor conductor of heat, despite having a low specific heat capacity. Combine that with a relatively small amount of heat to be dissipated, low sectional density in the hollow case, relatively long distance to any part possibly affected negatively by annealing, and you won't see any problems with annealing of the case head using a propane or MAPP gas plumbing torch to heat the case mouth in air at environmental conditions.
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Old July 15, 2010, 11:28 AM   #39
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"Brass is an excellent conductor of heat. A flame applied at any point on a case for a short time will cause the rest of the case to heat very quickly. There are several temperatures at which brass is affected. Also, the time the brass remains at a given temperature will have an effect. Brass which has been work......"

http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm

I am not much on making this stuff up as I go, again, annealing is about heat, travel and time, and there is more to annealing than waving a flame over the case.

And again what is the advantage to submerging a case in water up to the shoulder, I am beginning to think the principles of annealing is not something most reloaders take serious, seems most would would want to correct bad habits, or at least have an incentive to improve.

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Old July 15, 2010, 03:15 PM   #40
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Quote:
Among metals and metal alloys, brass is a pretty poor conductor of heat, despite having a low specific heat capacity. Combine that with a relatively small amount of heat to be dissipated, low sectional density in the hollow case, relatively long distance to any part possibly affected negatively by annealing, and you won't see any problems with annealing of the case head using a propane or MAPP gas plumbing torch to heat the case mouth in air at environmental conditions.
I ain't no scientist, but dat sure sounds right!

Quote:
seems most would would want to correct bad habits, or at least have an incentive to improve.
How is it "bad" if it works with no ill side affects?
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Old July 15, 2010, 04:01 PM   #41
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http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm

I started with Roy Dunlap, in his book on gunsmith saying annealing required skill before the Internet, after the Internet everyone became an expert. If it sounds about right but you were not sure where would you go to find information. I posted the link above for the few that that read this thread and want resource material, again I had no illusion the choir would open and read the link. No one that has went through the motions of annealing by holding the case in their hand will even consider the possibility the case is anything but a good conductor AND the fact the brass is thin allows the heat to travel faster, as I said, this stuff could be over some reloaders head, like there is nothing to it, anybody can do it and no matter what there is no way it can fail, as the link says, some go through the motions without accomplishing anything.

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Old July 15, 2010, 09:48 PM   #42
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Well, knocking or dropping a heated case in water makes steam as it quenches, but no explosion. The water is a phase change material, same as the lanolin in Heat Stop or the other plumbing heat blocking pastes, so it will carry off heat as steam if convection doesn't replace the hot water with cold fast enough. You'll see little bubbles nucleate on the surface of the case same as you see in the bottom of a pan getting near a boil, and they'll rise and go off as steam. Heating liquid water one degree only takes one BTU per pound, but the enthalpy of vaporization of water is over 970 BTU/lb, so turning it from 212°F liquid to 212°F steam absorbs a lot more heat.

Heat transfer can be a confusing topic. Heat does move toward cold, but only because the temperature difference between hot an cold exists. It is driven by the difference in temperature, somewhat analogous to electric current being driven by a difference in voltage, which is why thermal resistance and conductivity are standard thermal properties with standard units and why temperature drops can be calculated in thermal resistances exactly by the same rules as voltage drops in electrical circuits are. There are differences, though. One of them is that the flow of electricity through an electrical resistance dissipates energy which makes heat. Heat flow through a thermal resistance doesn't make anything new. It does change the infra red color emitted as it changes temperature by flowing in or out of an area, but otherwise it is just moving.

So, there is no reason to object to moving heat through a case toward the head. It was going to go there by thermal effusivity if you had no chill on the case head anyway. The difference is that with the cold object there, the heat will continue to flow because the cold object keeps the head colder than the heated neck. If you remove the cold object, heat flow decreases, but only because the head is getting warmer, thus reducing the temperature difference that drives the heat flow. That's not a desirable condition. It is actually better for the head to stay cold enough to cause constant flow than to let it heat and slow the flow.

Water up near the shoulder will cause trouble, too. It will keep the case at that point at about the boiling point of water with all that energy the conversion to steam absorbs. It will do that faster than the torch can put heat in through the thin brass. As the steam goes off, unboiled water flows in to displace it due to its weight under the force of gravity. That will cause the brass to remain too cold to stress relieve for some distance above the water line due to the temperature drop.

Here's another point. You don't actually need to fully anneal brass. As mentioned earlier, that makes it too soft due to grain growth. All you need to do is relieve the stress from work-hardening that causes splits. That is complete right at the bottom end of the annealing temperature range. I put a chart below showing how hot brass has to be to stress relieve and anneal in one hour. Unfortunately its legend doesn't specify how thick the samples are that it was derived from, so you can't tell how much of that hour is actually needed to produce the plotted effects, and how much is just the soak time needed to bring the samples up to temperature through and through. Mostly we stress relieve cases by making them hotter than the stress relieving range in the chart so they will stress relieve faster, but not so hot that portions of the mouth get over soft. It's a compromise.

Stress relieving occurs between 482°F and 572°F on the chart. 662°F is where the softening grain growth starts. 650°F seems to be the generally targeted range for case annealing. We want good neck tension for good start pressure, as that just avoids the grain growth (see grain growth plot in the chart below). Once the brass is hot enough to start grain growth, it will continue until the temperature drops, which is why quenching in water will stop grain growth. However, brass cases cool fairly quickly in air, so I doubt failure to quench makes a lot of difference to them. If you stay below 662°F it won't matter because you aren't initiating grain growth anyway. You can set cases down on an aluminum plate with a fan blowing over them if you want to speed cooling without quenching.

I still quench, but maybe I'm just being superstitious? I'm using a 650° Tempilstick on the necks and I've not done any testing to find any difference the quenching makes. I'm sure that by the time the indicator wax has melted some portion of the mouth has exceeded 650°F and started grain growth—but significant difference?

It would not be very hard to set up to try to measure it. Bullet seating and pulling force should indicate whether the grip on the bullet is greater for one than the other, indicating softer or harder brass to a degree that will affect shooting performance, and I have instrumentation for measuring that. I"ll try to remember to test that next time I have some inexpensive brass to stress relieve so I can sacrifice a few cases. Seating and pulling force before and after the heat treatment should quantify the effects of the different methods.

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Old July 16, 2010, 11:06 AM   #43
F. Guffey
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"I will type slower, heat travels to cold, annealing in my opinion requires 600 + degree, 600 degree F produces super heated steam, then there is the ability to have compound thoughts, lead melts at 600 plus degree, do not add lead to the melt if it is moist, doing so could empty the pot, water when heated to those temperatures does not boil it explodes"



Not my intentions to overwhelm those with selective reading disorder, some reloaders are also bullet casters, those that are know once the lead (straight lead) reaches a melt adding water/moisture to the melt could cause the careless lead melter to wear the melted lead, not important to me what it is called but the rapid expansion of moisture from ambient temperatures to super heated steam can be described as explosive, the thought only works if the reader can keep up with two thought as once, again submerging a case in water up to the shoulder as recommended by NORMA? with no link and or added information other than NORMA makes cases did not make seance because of the spheroid effect, no one claiming to annealing using the high water method ever mentions the boiling water (separating from the case) at the surface of the case.



Not in charge of the range top, in the early years my wife asked me if there was something I liked that was simple to cook, I said yes and suggested Corn Croquettes., that would be corn mixed with mashed potatoes in patties and deep fried, that was 40 years ago, seems I left out a few cautions, she called and got more information, seems I left out the part that said do not use corm packet in water, when the water in the corm hit the hot grease everything in the kitchen was waring hot potato, corn and grease, So the water rapidly expanded and almost blew everything in the skillet out, my wife said "It exploded", right then would not have been a good time to argue, my job was to listen.



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In the absence of heat there is only cold, when the cold starts to warm do not inclued me tn the group that ask "where is the heat froming from".
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Old July 16, 2010, 11:07 AM   #44
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from"?

Forgive,

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Old July 16, 2010, 12:08 PM   #45
F. Guffey
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"Where is the heat coming from"? Again, sorry about that.



Brass is or is not a good conductor of heat?



FMF, voltage, pressure and potential difference are terms the Greek would describe as ISO, ISO, same-O, same-O.



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Old July 16, 2010, 12:23 PM   #46
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Mr. Guffey
Putting red hot brass into water will not produce explosive steam.
Putting water into molten metal will surely produce unwanted results.
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Old July 16, 2010, 03:04 PM   #47
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Bill, I agree but the perception was/is there is a parting line at the top of the water that separates the 650 + degrees neck from a shoulder that is 212 degree or below, that can not happen, either the neck is not 650 degree or the heat is not traveling or the annealer is not applying enough heat, again controlling heat, time and travel is what annealing is about. The term used was spheroid, to prevent this condition in the kitchen a lid is added with an adjustable or fixed valve, with the adjustable valve the lid is locked onto the pot, if someone has a weak moment and removes the lid with out releasing the pressure the results is a horror story, explosion, rapid expansion?? To me it matters not.



Again, do not pour water into a lead melt (pure lead) the temperature of annealing and lead melt is at about the same temperature, read the labels on a can of corn, make sure the corn is not packed in water. The amount of heat in the thin neck of the case does not have enough heat to cause more than a vapor, the amount of heat in a lead pot melt can cause a person making that mistake to swear off of melting lead.



650 + Degree is hot, wasted on most are the two links provided, one suggested submerging the case in a pan of water that covers 1/3 of the case (including the case head), a JIC precaution-just in case.

And I said I make tools for annealing for my use only. I would like to hear about tools others use, as I said just because the chamber gets dark when the bolt closes is not a cause for the light to go out----or is it?

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Old July 16, 2010, 03:08 PM   #48
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Again, brass is or is not a good conductor of heat?



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Old July 16, 2010, 11:01 PM   #49
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Old July 17, 2010, 01:09 AM   #50
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I know. Is it ever gonna stop......?
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