The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 10, 2010, 10:16 PM   #76
JimL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2009
Posts: 276
Quote:
What surprised me most was that having a pistol pointed at him didn't set him to shaking in his boots but rather emboldened him...
Exactly. Maybe he was an exception, but exceptions are exactly why simply _pointing_ a gun at a BG is VERY dangerous if you don't know whether you can pull the trigger and when to do it.
__________________
Thanks
Sue Walmart and Kmart for selling millions of inferior brains.

JimL
JimL is offline  
Old July 10, 2010, 10:33 PM   #77
booker_t
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2009
Posts: 797
Quote:
..having a pistol pointed at him didn't set him to shaking in his boots but rather emboldened him..
A cornered animal is going to be aggressive.

Aggression is met with heightened aggression among people whose lives involve violence, be it through prior incarceration, gang involvement, or general criminal activity. That's their life, they've probably been beat down more times than most people have stubbed their toe. Knives, guns, and imminent violence is their daily reality. Some guy they've been marking for a week isn't going to leave them shaking in their boots just because he pulled a Gat or yelled "Stop!"
booker_t is offline  
Old July 11, 2010, 01:10 AM   #78
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,083
booker_t - yeah, I recognized that, but my point was to illustrate that situations other than an active attack on you might result in someone "surrendering" to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Grump
They can't hang you for trying to render aid. You aren't a professional healer so they can't expect professional care till the emergency people get there. I for one cannot just let a man bleed to death on my living room floor if the danger has passed.
Only if you do something outside the teachings of the Red Cross first aid procedures or procedures by which you were taught (e.g. USGI first aid).

If you were justified in shooting the perp, then his actions were those that threatened you with death or great bodily injury. That means he wanted to kill you or do serious violence to you. Thus, I am not taking the risk of getting within arm's reach (or leg reach) of him, conscious or not. If he is conscious, I can provide him with first aid items to render aid to himself. If he's unconscious, I have no idea if he's faking it or if he'll suddenly "wake up" while my hands are busy and try to choke me to death.

If, as you say, he has a throat full of #4 buckshot or my .45 round turned his head into a canoe, there's not a lot I'll be able to do anyhow. I still have the concern of whether he was alone or not to deal with and/or calling 911 for aid. Yes, my first impulse would normally be to render some kind of aid. But the more I think of the potential for things to go wrong, the less likely I'm inclined to take the risk...or let a loved one take the risk in my place.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old July 11, 2010, 04:51 PM   #79
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
A cornered animal is going to be aggressive.

Aggression is met with heightened aggression among people whose lives involve violence, be it through prior incarceration, gang involvement, or general criminal activity. That's their life, they've probably been beat down more times than most people have stubbed their toe. Knives, guns, and imminent violence is their daily reality. Some guy they've been marking for a week isn't going to leave them shaking in their boots just because he pulled a Gat or yelled "Stop!"
BookerT, In this case there was no corner or cage. This guy was just dumb. Microgunner seems to think he didn't believe the gun was real being a Kel-tec P-3at or p-32.

Lets think this through........a poll of prison inmates locked up for the crime of burglary showed that their #1 fear is the armed homeowner followed by a large dog. That tells me that most don't want to be shot.

I have had only positive results from pulling my firearm. Once a car burglar being held at gunpoint by my cousin decided to plea their case with me as I searched the vehicle for a revolver left in it overnight. I pulled my pistol and simply said stop go sit down now and it was done instantly.

Another time I was playing basketball when a large group of ghetto youth came to cause trouble. I pulled my pistol held it down by my side and made a slow peaceful retreat. The pistol immediately stopped the advancing group without a word from me.

In fact every incident of this type involving friends and family except microgunners has seen the bad guy either stop, comply, or run. So I have to believe that it is more uncommon for someone to continue in the face of an armed citizen.

I really think its the loonies or drug addicts and not hardened thugs who do this.
threegun is offline  
Old July 11, 2010, 06:03 PM   #80
booker_t
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2009
Posts: 797
*yawn*
booker_t is offline  
Old July 11, 2010, 06:43 PM   #81
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Bored??? Go read another book. Seems your responses come from books quite often.

Psychology 101 perhaps?

In the real world "most" of the time they run. When they don't run there seems to be a screw loose or under the influence of something.

Tough upbringings may lead them to a tough lifestyle but they run or stop when lead is getting ready to fly most of the time in the real world.
threegun is offline  
Old July 11, 2010, 07:34 PM   #82
JimL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2009
Posts: 276
Quote:
I really think its the loonies or drug addicts and not hardened thugs who do this.
It doesn't much matter who they are, does it. Ya can't take anything for granted.
__________________
Thanks
Sue Walmart and Kmart for selling millions of inferior brains.

JimL
JimL is offline  
Old July 12, 2010, 05:54 AM   #83
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
It doesn't much matter who they are, does it. Ya can't take anything for granted.
True which is why they say if you pull it be ready to use it.

My point above is simply to dispel the notion that hardened thugs and gangsters are more apt to ignore the pulling of a firearm and press on. This simply goes against all the video footage I have seen and all the personal stories I have heard.

Truth is most sane folk don't want to be shot. Most SD scenarios involve someone pulling a gun and that ends the situation.

Quote:
It alarms me a little that some folks think they can't draw a gun on a violent offender until they are justified in killing him. If they wait that long, they won't be able to do anything BUT shoot him...or die...and if they wait that long, those two outcomes may not be mutually exclusive.
Here I believe Mas Ayoob, an expert in this area, is telling us that waiting to long to pull could force us to shoot by not giving the attacker enough time to change his mind. This delay also increases our chances of getting hurt because it allows the attacks that might have been prevented by the mere sight of the firearm to happen and allows the attacker to get closer.

If I am reading this wrong Mr Ayoob please feel free to correct me.
threegun is offline  
Old July 12, 2010, 10:34 AM   #84
CWPinSC
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2009
Posts: 863
Quote:
Here I believe Mas Ayoob, an expert in this area, is telling us that waiting to long to pull could force us to shoot by not giving the attacker enough time to change his mind.
That works for me. I've often said my FIRST option is to draw - my LAST option is to shoot.

In SC - to use your firearm, you must either BELIEVE you are in danger of losing your life or ACTUALLY be in such danger. The belief may cause me to draw my weapon, the actuality may cause me to shoot.
CWPinSC is offline  
Old July 12, 2010, 10:44 AM   #85
booker_t
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2009
Posts: 797
Quote:
threegun:
...I have to believe that it is more uncommon for someone to continue in the face of an armed citizen.

I really think its the loonies or drug addicts and not hardened thugs who do this.

In the real world "most" of the time they run. When they don't run there seems to be a screw loose or under the influence of something.
In the real world, you don't have influence nor a priori knowledge of the other person(s) mental state going into the situation.
booker_t is offline  
Old July 12, 2010, 11:22 AM   #86
Claude Clay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 303
If 2 youth , one with a knife, approach you in a hallway jabbering in spanish........and they stop 10 feet away cause they see a gun in your hand pointing at the chest of the knife wielder.........the knife guy continues to jabber while cutting the air .....and what little spanish you know, the other kid is telling him to ‘stop’........but he doesn’t and after a half minute of this you point your gun at between his legs and ask him ‘if he wants to pi$$ like a women the rest of his life’? seems he understands english cause this action calms him right down and they both leave.

Is this what you mean?


at 14 or 17 years old (in the 1970's anyways) you have seen the other kids on the block/gang get shot or cut and scars are a sign of the streets--get you respect. but threaten his manhood........now you have his attention.
__________________
NRA Instructor -- NRA Basic Pistol & Re-Loading

Make a fire for a man and you warm him for the night
Light him on fire and you warm him for the rest of his life
Claude Clay is offline  
Old July 12, 2010, 01:15 PM   #87
JimL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2009
Posts: 276
Quote:
but threaten his manhood........now you have his attention.
Some people read a few words and reply "hipshot" so I'll start with a disclaimer that no scenario can be expected to be guaranteed to work all the time or even most or half of the time.

Having said that, yes, that is exactly what I was thinking and I believe it has probably been done successfully by someone, some time somewhere - if not a number of ones, a number of times, "a number of wheres."

I believe there is a time when any guy will very quickly picture in his mind his possible condition a few moments later, respond with more than a ho-hum level of distaste and quickly conclude he'd really rather be some place else.
__________________
Thanks
Sue Walmart and Kmart for selling millions of inferior brains.

JimL
JimL is offline  
Old July 12, 2010, 04:03 PM   #88
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
In the real world, you don't have influence nor a priori knowledge of the other person(s) mental state going into the situation.
Agreed however to say that pulling a gun on someone is going to set off their cornered animal instinct and they will respond violently as you did here.......
Quote:
A cornered animal is going to be aggressive.

Aggression is met with heightened aggression among people whose lives involve violence, be it through prior incarceration, gang involvement, or general criminal activity. That's their life, they've probably been beat down more times than most people have stubbed their toe. Knives, guns, and imminent violence is their daily reality. Some guy they've been marking for a week isn't going to leave them shaking in their boots just because he pulled a Gat or yelled "Stop!"
....goes against how most people react in the real world when you pull a gun on them which is to stop, run, or comply.
threegun is offline  
Old July 12, 2010, 08:37 PM   #89
booker_t
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2009
Posts: 797
Does it?
booker_t is offline  
Old July 13, 2010, 07:42 AM   #90
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Does it?
How about some type of rebuttal? Some counter evidence that your assertion is correct.

Many folks even justify carrying a mousegun because most folks will comply without needing to be shot.
threegun is offline  
Old July 14, 2010, 03:34 AM   #91
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,083
Probably the majority of incidents occur when a perp wants to score money to get his fix, not while he's high. When a gun is introduced, they realize that they can get hurt and also that the effort to score money just got too large. They can flee and go hit up someone else in 20 minutes to score.

If your assailant is on drugs, it's doubtful that a can of spray seasoning or even shock treatment can dissuade him from taking what he wants. Even the threat of a gun may not be realized if his focus is on taking something from you.

The person's mentail state is a non-issue for me. If he's coming at me in a threatening manner, I'm going to avoid, evade and move to put barriers between us if I can do so easily. If the sight of a gun doesn't deter¹ and the attack approach continues, I'll double tap as needed until he stops.

¹ One can impress upon a jury that most rational people will stop or back away if a gun is pointed at them. Those who continue towards an armed man ready to defend himself are not rational and are unafraid of deadly force. You can offer no more convincing arguments to deter him and are forced into shooting him.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old July 14, 2010, 08:51 AM   #92
Microgunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by threegun
In fact every incident of this type involving friends and family except microgunners has seen the bad guy either stop, comply, or run. So I have to believe that it is more uncommon for someone to continue in the face of an armed citizen.
Oh he stopped. He just kept screaming obscenities after I pulled my KelTec P3AT is all.
__________________
Proud NRA Patron Member
Microgunner is offline  
Old July 18, 2010, 10:39 AM   #93
Hammerstrike44
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Bryan, Texas
Posts: 4
I Had BG in My House Attempting Burglary

It cannot be coincidence that I join this forum and find this topic today. On October 21, 2004, my wife and I are awakened by our 6 month old puppy. He was all bristled up and growling and I just told him hush. About that time, I heard someone talking and hear furniture in my living room being moved. We have an emergency plan that if our home is broken into she is to grab our son at the end of our hallway and go through our master bath and get on our large walk in closet, flat on the floor. I am an avid firearms collector and my father is an ex-special forces and Texas State Trooper and I have never not known how to behave around a firearm and when old enough, carry and use a firearm. I retrieve my 12 gauge Remington 870 Marine, six in the tube and one in the chamber and eight on the side rail of OO Buck. Once I knew I was between what I knew to be two large men and my wife, I took up the phone and called 911. I informed the dispatcher my home was being burglarized and I was armed with a shotgun and described my clothing. Staying on the phone, I yelled at the top of my lungs, "you better grab what you got and leave immediately, I am armed and on the phone with the police". Now my home is large and our doors are solid wood but I had taken a position in my bedroom where if a round were to come through the door it could not hit me. The dog is going crazy, the dispatcher is pleading with me not to leave my bedroom and I hear four rounds go off at chest level though my bedroom door and into the sheetrock. I had no desire to kill anyone over a dam*ed TV set or DVD player, and all my firearms are in my home office-study. I chose the shotgun for self defense because I did not want rounds passing through my walls and going out a window and hitting either some innocent neighbor, or the police who I can now hear are coming. I have too many guns to count (they are inventoried and serial numbers recorded) and thousands of rounds ammunition. But I know I have to stop this threat and now the threat is to my wife and young son and not to my property and I cannot wait for them to enter my bedroom. I take the weapon off safe and I open the door and have the weapon down with the butt touching my shoulder, I slip against the hall wall and bring the weapon up and turn on the tactical light ready to fire, the light makes a large black male raise his hand holding a semi-auto stainless steel pistol to block the light in his eyes and I fire at his head, and I see another figure run through the light and see, not hear, because my ears are ringing, flashes as he runs behind the other man. I know I hit him and he is probably dead, but can't look down because I know I'm being fired on. I bring the light up ahead of the last flash and a second man is crouched in a combat position and has a black semi-auto pistol in both hands and he is firing. I cut my light off and simultaneously start moving to my right, his left and cut my light back on, he is still firing where I was and I fire three times at him, first at his head, then his chest, then his waist. Now I can see what the buckshot has done to him, but I am still not sure about the first intruder. Now there are police all around my house, sirens are howling, and my ears can barely hear the sirens. What I am concentrating on is the first man, if not down or dead, is between me and my family. I move arournd and step on broken electronics in the dark, and take a position in the hall and bring my gun up, ready to fire and cut on the light. I only needed a second to know it's over. I laid the gun down and ran to my bedroom closet and my wife and child are screaming but I cannot hear anything. I scream as loud as I can that she needs to help me find the phone so I can tell the dispatcher where we are, where my shotgun is, in my bedroom behind the door, and we are not moving until the police come to the closet. She gets on the phone and within seconds, a police officer is speaking to my wife through the door and she takes my hand and my son's hand and makes us back up against the wall and this officer walks in gun drawn, and quickly holsters his pistol. He starts asking me questions, and looking at my face and arms and my wife is pulling up my sleves and I realize they think I've been shot. I suddenly, I feel warm liquid running down my pajama legs and then my stomach and realize I am shot. Right under my left floating rib and blood is squiting out. The officer makes me lie down and I'm arguing let me lay on the bed and I still can't hear and I start to calm down and get real relaxed. When I wake up, I'm in the hospital. There is a doctor there that is saying over and over "do you want to see the bullet?" I said sure and he takes a small bullet out of his coat pocket and says "you're a lucky or crazy man, I can't tell which." I say I can barely hear you. He said your ears are going to be fine. My wife and son and same police officer come in and then a detective comes in and wants me to recount what happened. I tell them what I just told yall. Here in Texas, a lot of people have been carrying guns since they could lift one up. We announce our upcoming executions like they are football scores. Sometimes, they announce two or three in one night. Now if someone was stealing my TV or stuck a knife up and said hand me your wallet, even though I have a CWP, I would let them go. I still would not kill anyone over my wallet or TV. My wife and child were in danger, and maybe I should have stayed in the bedroom. People ask me all the time would I do it again. I am an attorney and the question comes up because I'm known as the guy who killed two people in his living room. I'll say this. I had to remodel my house. My cabinet, entertainment center, large flatscreen TV, sheetrock in three rooms and the moulding and furniture all had to be replaced. My second bathroom and guest bedroom all had buckshot damage, and in the end, my insurance forked over about $62,000.00 And I got shot in the side with a 40cal Taurus. But I had to take charge. I could not wait for those two men to make a forced entry into my bedroom. My wife and child were three doors and less than sixty feet away. I had to go out that door and I did not even remember pumping the shells into the chamber. My wife said the house look like a slaughter-house. Their blood, my blood and all that damage. Yes, if I pick up my shotgun or pull my concealed Glock, I am going to kill you.
Hammerstrike44 is offline  
Old July 18, 2010, 12:23 PM   #94
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Congrats on surviving alive.
threegun is offline  
Old July 18, 2010, 01:01 PM   #95
SiNNiK
Member
 
Join Date: March 29, 2008
Posts: 66
A guy was going to mug me once, I pulled a Dan Wesson .357 on him and looked around for the cops.

He stopped, looked at it, then looked at me and took a half step forward. I had to stare at him in his eye and refine my point of aim straight at his face for him to believe I'd use it.

Then he left after a short conversation.
SiNNiK is offline  
Old October 3, 2010, 07:01 PM   #96
batjka
Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2009
Posts: 61
Hammerstrike44,

This is one of the most intense encounters I've ever seen described. Thankfully, you made it, and not the two criminals. I guess you've received some formal training in CQB and shotgun use? Please elaborate.
batjka is offline  
Old October 3, 2010, 07:54 PM   #97
Sefner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 769
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiNNiK
He stopped, looked at it, then looked at me and took a half step forward. I had to stare at him in his eye and refine my point of aim straight at his face for him to believe I'd use it.
I'm not so sure I wouldn't have pulled the trigger when he took a step toward me. If someone is pointing a firearm at someone else and their response is to take a step closer, then very clearly one of those people is not operating under basic survival instincts. I would assume at that point that he has some goal that MUST be attained, even at the cost of his life (such as the voices in his head, the money for his next fix, etc etc) and will thus do anything to reach it. That situation is very sticky.
__________________
gtalk:renfes steamID: Sefner
Sefner is offline  
Old October 4, 2010, 12:36 AM   #98
jgcoastie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 2,098
Quote:
That situation is very sticky.
Either way, the outlook ain't so good for you...
__________________
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.
jgcoastie is offline  
Old October 4, 2010, 01:42 AM   #99
therealdeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 627
HAMMERSTRIKE,

THAT STORY IS INTENSE!! I AM GLAD YOU ARE OK AS WELL AS YOUR FAMILY! Its all speculation, but I guess maybe these guys didn't hear you thru the solid walls when you told them you were armed.
__________________
NRA Distinguished Life Member

"Abraham Lincoln freed all men, but Sam Colt made them all equal." (post Civil War slogan)
therealdeal is offline  
Old October 4, 2010, 02:49 AM   #100
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: 1B ID
Posts: 6,381
I have only had to draw a weapon for defense once:

In 2000, I was run off the road by a stupid driver, twice within 10 minutes, while returning from a shooting trip .

The second time, the BG stopped his truck, and blocked my only exit from the barrow-pit he forced me into. As I was trying to figure out what the **** had just happened (70 mph to zero, off road, in a matter of seconds, while talking to the Highway Patrol on your cell phone, is a bit unnerving in a small car)... I looked in my rear-view mirror, and saw him handling what looked like a shotgun, while opening his door.

I grabbed my Ruger P95, jumped out, and used my car for cover. The sound of me wracking the slide got his attention. The sight of me drawing down on him, even with his shotgun, was enough to get him to jump back in the truck and take off.

The Highway Patrol told me the truck had been car-jacked, and the guy had shot a few other unfortunate souls. Yet, even with a shotgun, he fled from an armed citizen.

Had he come any closer, or attempted to get the shotgun into firing position... he would have had a very bad day.
__________________
"Such is the strange way that man works -- first he virtually destroys a species and then does everything in his power to restore it."
FrankenMauser is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14009 seconds with 7 queries