The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 8, 2010, 11:38 AM   #26
davem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2004
Posts: 383
I concur with Bill DeShivs, I too have had two eyeball to eyeball encounters and the BGS ran both times- I never had to fire a shot.

BUT.... you guys must watch too much TV. In the first encounter it was two guys that broke into my property. Years later, the second time it was five guys. The idea you are going to face a single BG may not be that valid.

If I have to shoot I'll probably aim for the torso as that is a bigger target and I'll continue to shoot while the BG is still standing. I've read that incapacitation time is something like three and a half seconds.

Let's see. One Mississippi, Two Mississippi, Three Mississippi, four Mis.....

Plenty of time for a lot of shooting back and forth, if the BG is running- let him run, you have no idea if he has partners, etc, Call the cops, tell them where you are, that you are armed, and for them to make their presence know when they show up and you'll call out your name, etc.
davem is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 12:54 PM   #27
Old Grump
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 9, 2009
Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in
Posts: 3,144
I'm an old dinosaur and I like things simple.

1. Arm yourself if you perceive danger.
2. Shoot if danger to you or others is imminent and you fear for your/their life.
3. If boogerman runs objective is accomplished, danger went away.
4. If boogerman threatens you in spite of your gun make him have a bad day.
5. Never, never, never fire a warning shot or shoot to wound, leave that for TV movies.

Then render aid if necessary, call authorities and call a lawyer. Don't talk because stupid talk will put your tail in jail and when you are full of adrenaline and shock you are stupid. Believe me you mouth will run a lot faster than your brain and you brain wont be on the right track anyway.
__________________
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
--Daniel Webster--
Old Grump is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 01:23 PM   #28
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,021
Quote:
Posted by CWPinSC: In SC, Castle Doctrine is fully in force and the homeowner may assume the BG is there to harm him, not to just steal from him - and may act accordingly.
Yes. In SC.

However, there are castle doctrines and there are castle doctrines.

Where I live, I must be inside the domicile (or automobile) to avail myself of a defense of justification under the castle doctrine.

In other states, the code includes the word "occupied" as it relates to the home or other premises.

In still others, the resident must present evidence indicating a basis for reasonable belief the intruder intended to commit a crime in addition to that of unlawful entry.

And that's all in the code as written. What's the case law?

One must understand the law and it's meaning in his or her jurisdiction. There's no substitute for that.

Case in point: a couple of years ago in a state in which there was no "castle doctrine" in the code per se, but in which a castle doctrine was in fact in force due to a state supreme court decision, a man returned home to find an intruder in the house and shot him, claiming self defense. No need to dredge up media reports, but the homeowner was convicted of manslaughter.

Quote:
Unless I had family members inside, I would wait.
So would I. Safer physically, financially, and legally--by far.

Matter of fact, I would follow Peetzakilla's advice: I would get back in the vehicle, drive to a safe distance (a few hundred feet maybe) while on with 911, observe and report.
OldMarksman is online now  
Old July 8, 2010, 01:52 PM   #29
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: The First State
Posts: 418
I have been held at gun point 3 times and knife point 2 times. 1 of the three times at gun point I booked it on foot. Oh yes, you'd be suprised how fast even a fat man can run when fleeing for his life. Especially since both my father and me can tap into our adrenaline at will. Both times with a knife I was easily able to dispatch the BG with bare hands. In a fight for life their is no fairness only victory or death. I cold cocked the guy and dropped him, took the knife and held it to his throat and told him I'd take his manhood from him if I ever saw him again. Same guys tries it again and this time he tried to stab me, luckily I stopped his hand be4 the blade reached my belly, I spit in his face then grabbed his wrist and twisted it till It snapped. Then he fell to the ground crying and I held him at knife point again until the cops arrived. He was a younger guy and only got 3 years. Never seen him since, but it was in my neighborhood it happened so I always keep my maverick loaded...
__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!
Big Tom is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 02:11 PM   #30
booker_t
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2009
Posts: 797
Quote:
..you could cock the hammer back if the bad guy shows any attitude
A relatively-fit human can close a gap of 20 feet in well under two seconds. That means from a reasonable distance in the home, he/she can potentially crush your trachea or have a blade in your chest in less than a second.

Get yourself a blue gun (Airsoft is even better), a training knife, some eye pro and a buddy. Run some Force-on-Force drills around your house, around your car, and in other scenarios. Run them live, full-speed, and you'll find that many of the tactics you think make sense don't give you much more than a 50-50 chance at best.

Last edited by booker_t; July 8, 2010 at 02:52 PM.
booker_t is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 02:39 PM   #31
Sefner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Tom
Both times with a knife I was easily able to dispatch the BG with bare hands. In a fight for life their is no fairness only victory or death. I cold cocked the guy and dropped him, took the knife and held it to his throat and told him I'd take his manhood from him if I ever saw him again. Same guys tries it again and this time he tried to stab me, luckily I stopped his hand be4 the blade reached my belly, I spit in his face then grabbed his wrist and twisted it till It snapped. Then he fell to the ground crying and I held him at knife point again until the cops arrived. He was a younger guy and only got 3 years. Never seen him since, but it was in my neighborhood it happened so I always keep my maverick loaded...
Hey Big Tom, I'm interested in this case here. Do you have any police reports from the incident? You did report it, right? If so, I bet T&T would get a huge benefit if you posted scanned copies of the report. Black out any personal information obviously. Also when and where did this occur? At night, in an alleyway, in a parking lot during daytime? Also I've never heard of a model of gun called a Maverick... what kind is it specifically? The only models I'm finding in my research on the internet are paintball markers and nerf guns. Also do you have any prior martial arts training? I'm asking because a knife attack is a very dangerous thing and the victim is at a very large disadvantage. Thanks!

Also, how does one "tap into adrenaline at will"? Is this something you can train?
Sefner is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 02:44 PM   #32
Hog Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 386
Booker I have actully run drills in my house like your talking about, without the other person, but I can see where it would take no time for them to get to you. I dont belive the BG should have a fair advantage in a mans house. Everywhere I go I am aware of my surroundings.
Hog Hunter is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 03:04 PM   #33
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,798
Interesting set of posts on the same issue at:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=532250

One nice takeaway point is that practicing clearing by yourself usually goes well as there is nobody there.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 03:33 PM   #34
CWPinSC
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2009
Posts: 863
Quote:
Then render aid if necessary,
You got it all right except this one. Except for controlling the bleeding and treating for shock, there's very little a layman with no equipment can do for a gunshot victim (and I use that term loosely) in the field.

Now, you render aid - he dies. You can easily be accused of "finishing him off". It's just another legal battle you'll have to fight. For example: As a EMT, I was trained to check the carotid pulse by sliding my fingers from the side of the neck towards the center, not from the center outwards. Both methods work equally well, so why? In the second method, with your hand across the trachea, it appears you may be choking the victim. Now think. You're messing with a guy who just tried to attack you and you shot him...

As for talking, you're dead (no pun intended) on. Shut up. Talk to no one except the responding LEOs and then only to say something like, "I was in fear for my life and I defended myself. I respectfully refuse to answer any further questions until I have a lawyer present and have consulted with him."

Quote:
One must understand the law and it's meaning in his or her jurisdiction. There's no substitute for that.
Point well taken, Old Marksman. Different states, different laws and interpretations. Know the law in your state but don't let it hinder you from protecting your life and the lives of your family. In that case, I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.
CWPinSC is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 03:42 PM   #35
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,969
Quote:
Say you get home and you notice your home has been broken into. Honestly, how many of you would actually call the police and wait for them to clear the house
I did, 2 cops cleard the house before I went in tthere. Better they get shot (vests) than I (no vest).

Heroic actions may get you killed. Be careful.
markj is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 03:55 PM   #36
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: The First State
Posts: 418
Sefner,

I did report it. He was arrested and tried by the State of DE. He was sentanced to 3 years and the 2 years probation. Why would I do that whole thing with T&T? BTW also this is the gun (this is not my vid or me in it):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy2Jy...eature=related

FYI: Mine is 20 gauge and holds 6 shots unlike this guys....
__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!
Big Tom is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 04:11 PM   #37
Microgunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,032
A man I know, who's home was invaded three Sundays ago at 3.30am by three men and a woman, managed to retrieve his S&W .38spl snubby and shoot one of the intruders through and through dropping him dead in his tracks. The other three jumped my friend, wrestled his revolver from him and shot my friend through his left leg. Now my friend was facing three very angry intruders so he did what most will do when they think death is imminent, he began begging for his life. The woman was the girlfriend of the intruder he killed so she sat on my friend's back and pummeled the back of his skull with the butt of a shotgun. He eventually feigned unconsciousness and after ransacking his home they tied him up and left him there with their dead comrade. According to him you'll do anything when you believe you're about to be killed. They've captured two of the armed intruders so far.
__________________
Proud NRA Patron Member
Microgunner is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 04:21 PM   #38
Big Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2009
Location: The First State
Posts: 418
That is very true, I have on 2 occasion beg for my life as well. The only reason I was able to do this to the one guy is because he was so easy to read. Mind you this was luck not skills.
__________________
ANTI-GUN is ANTI-AMERICAN!
Big Tom is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 07:25 PM   #39
isanchez2008
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: WA
Posts: 344
Permission has been given to me by M. Ayoob to post this.

"And if you weren't qualified to use "killing force", woe unto you if you make a "shot-to-wound" that maims in this fashion. For one thing, ask your attorney how much more a cripled man can sue the causer for than can the family of the deceased.
The very fact that you did not "shot-to-kill" can indicate that you did not consider the crisis a killing situation; it could be decided that your degree of response was more than you, even at the time, reasonably believed was necessary."

"when time and the heat of the moment permit, that there should be a verbal warning to the assailant, but neither a warning shot nor a shot aimed to disable. If the warning is ignored, or can not be issued without jeopardizing the defender or the innocent party about to be slain or badly injured, the situation has escalated. It has reached the point where the degree of preventative force that is justifiable now encompasses the right to kill."

Ayoob, Massad F. "Self-Defense and Lethal Force." In The Gravest Extreme (The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection). Concord, NH: Dorothy A. Ayoob, 1980. 24-25. Print.

Last edited by isanchez2008; July 8, 2010 at 07:27 PM. Reason: Corrected citation
isanchez2008 is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 08:31 PM   #40
qualfang
Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2010
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 57
guns as BG deterrent

First, you never 'shoot to wound' - from a legal, moral, and tacitcal standpoint, you always shoot to _stop_, going for center of mass. In other words, you use lethal force only to stop a threat of grevious bodily harm, kidnapping, of similar.

Personally, i'd only aim a gun at someone if i _already_ had a reason to shoot, but we are getting into tactical thinking, and i'm not really experienced enough to advse others at this.

One incident, I was being approached by a BG in a parking lot at 1 am in near downtown Chicago, I had finnished a service call and was carrying my two tool cases to my car. I had a small 9mm in the briefcase, and the BG was about 40 feet from me when i reached my car. I set the cases down, opened the brief, and clearly and openly tucked the pistol in the front of my belt.
I closed the case and opened the car door.

BG does a 90 degree turn that would have done any drill team proud, and keeps looking at me out of the corner of his eye, body language now tense/scared, rather than tense/aggressive prior to seeing the gun.

I have no way of knowing, but if i had pointed the gun at him too soon, he may have mistaken my not firing as unwillingness to engage. Plus, he was too far to legally /morally engage.

Having your hand on the gun shows confidence that you can draw and fire, and you are not so scared as to have to threaten right off the bat.

That's my 2 cents.
qualfang is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 08:45 PM   #41
Mas Ayoob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2005
Posts: 239
As brother Sanchez has noted, if you aren't justified in using deadly force, you should not fire at all. If you want to give your opponent a "boo-boo," an instrument every court in the world recognizes as a lethal weapon is not the tool of choice.

The shot to the pelvis most certainly IS deadly force. Many major arteries branch there, and for a number of other reasons shots to the pelvic area are often lethal.

The only justifiable reason for using deadly force is to STOP an attacker. Saying "I shot to kill" is saying, "My reason for shooting was to deprive the man I shot of his life." That plays right into a Murder conviction or, in civil court, a Wrongful Death finding by the jury. "I shot to stop him (from killing or crippling me or someone else I had the right to protect)" is, on the other hand, the very embodiment of justifiable use of deadly force as articulated in the statutes and criminal codes. Your purpose and intent in firing the shot is critical to the legal outcome of the shooting.

Since the 1970s, I've taught my students to index their weapon on the opponent's pelvis when they must take him at gunpoint. The main reason is a tactical one: IT ALLOWS YOU TO WATCH THE OPPONENT'S HANDS! If you aim at his chest or head, your hand(s) and your gun block your view of his hands, allowing him to draw and shoot you before you can even see him reaching for his pocket or waistband. He can't hide his hands from you if you have your weapon leveled on him pelvis-high. There are other reasons -- including the psychological aspect mentioned by several posters previously -- but the ability to watch the hands is the big reason to take the opponent at gunpoint with a pelvic aim.

It alarms me a little that some folks think they can't draw a gun on a violent offender until they are justified in killing him. If they wait that long, they won't be able to do anything BUT shoot him...or die...and if they wait that long, those two outcomes may not be mutually exclusive.

Finally, a bullet that seriously fractures the pelvis tends to drop a human before he can take another step. When facing a "contact weapon assault" -- Knife, club, disparity of force unarmed assault, or an attempt to take your weapon -- this is a faster neutralization of the opponent than waiting up to fifteen seconds or so for him to collapse because a bullet through the heart has finally deprived his brain of sufficient oxygenated blood to remain conscious. It is with this in mind that many instructors suggest the pelvis as an alternative to the brain for follow-up shots if gunfire to the chest has failed to neutralize an obviously homicidal opponent.
Mas Ayoob is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 10:37 PM   #42
THORN74
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2010
Location: Chicago 'Burbs
Posts: 519
booker t has tthe right idea
Quote:
As a civilian, if I pull a firearm on an attacker I'm pulling the trigger unless they immediately cease the attack as I draw. There are no intermediate levels of escalation between drawing and firing. Until I'm ready to deploy lethal force to stop an attacker, the gun stays holstered.
i wouldnt pull the gun unless i intend to shoot. anything less is asking for trouble.
__________________
Sig P226 .40s&w/9mm -- Kimber Pro CDP .45ACP -- Radom P64 9X18mm Makarov -- Dan Wesson RZ-45 Heritage .45ACP -- Ruger SR22 .22LR -- M&P9c 9mm
Springfield Armory Inc. M1A Scout 7.62X51mm NATO -- Kar 98AZ (1917 Erfurt) 8mm Mauser -- Marlin Model 60 Glenfield .22LR -- Marlin 795 .22LR -- Marlin 915y .22LR -- AR15 5.56x45mm NATO -- Springfield Armory M1 Garand 30-06
THORN74 is online now  
Old July 8, 2010, 11:26 PM   #43
Catfishman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2009
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 691
Quote:
i wouldnt pull the gun unless i intend to shoot. anything less is asking for trouble.
So your saying "don't pull your gun at all or shoot him dead". I understand where your coming from, but I couldn't disagree more. There are many situations that call for you to hold someone at gunpoint. I'll give you one.

A good friend of mine pulled up to his mother's house and observed a burgler crawling into his mother's window. He ran into the house then turned around and retrieved his pistol out of his truck. He went to the door of the room he thought the burgler was in and pushed the door. It didn't move. He told the guy "you might as well come out. I have a gun." The man opened the door and came out with his hands up. My buddy put the gun to the man's head and led him to the carport. He called the police and the man went to jail. Should he have shot him on sight? Heck no. Nevermind the law, we are Christians around here and shooting a man who has his hands up is wrong.
Catfishman is offline  
Old July 8, 2010, 11:46 PM   #44
Kitsap
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 2, 2010
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 4
However you think you want to handle a dangerous situation, you'd better make up your mind about it and PRACTICE how you intend to react because when the stuff-hits-the-fan you quite simply are NOT going to be in any condition to think about it. You will react to whatever training (deliberate or unintentional) you've had that relates to the situation. Unfortunately, for some people that unintentional training comes from watching too much TV.

As for shooting to wound...... I've seen too many people continue to move around and still function for many minutes after being shot to believe it would be a good idea..... and as for hoping to break the pelvis with a well placed shot? Mabey you've never heard of a recreational drug called PCP, but I've seen it in action and I've seen people on PCP ignore broken bones..... very scary situations. If you cannot bring yourself to use deadly force in a specific situation..... then run-like-heck and have no shame about it.
Kitsap is offline  
Old July 9, 2010, 08:15 AM   #45
45ACPShooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2010
Posts: 116
^^^I don't know if shooting someone in the pelvis is the best idea but it doesn't matter if you're on PCP or extremely motivated if certain bones break you're not going to be able to certain body parts. For example if breaks your arm just because you're on PCP your still not going to be able to move your arm. You might be able to ignore the pain but if a bone is broken, then it's broken.
45ACPShooter is offline  
Old July 9, 2010, 10:40 AM   #46
sakeneko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2009
Location: Nevada
Posts: 644
What 45ACPShooter said. (And Mas Ayoob, and some others.) If the pelvis is broken apart, the guy will be physically unable to walk or stand. Even if he's high on PCP or some other drug and feels no pain, he still will be unable to walk or stand.

What I'd like to know is whether caliber and type of bullet makes a difference in how likely you are to achieve this goal. Would a .38 +P (for example) shot through an obese abdomen reach a bone with enough FPS left to break it? Would a .357 or a .45 ACP? What other considerations should go into deciding to take this shot rather than a head shot, or a COM shot?
sakeneko is offline  
Old July 9, 2010, 10:43 AM   #47
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,021
Quote:
i wouldnt pull the gun unless i intend to shoot. anything less is asking for trouble.
In all but a few states, pulling the gun if you are not justified in using deadly force is asking for real trouble.

However, things can change instantly, and if the justification ceases, you had better not shoot.

Quote:
There are many situations that call for you to hold someone at gunpoint.
Very few, actually. First, check the law on citizens arrests in your jurisdiction.

And while it may seam to be the right thing to do, what do you do if that someone elects to not comply (hint: in 99% of the cases, you may not shoot)? What if you shoot inadvertently? What about that accomplice who ambushes you when you are preoccupied? The armed citizen, to whom you look like a bad guy? The arriving sheriff summoned by someone else?

Not a good idea. It's for television, movies, and comic books.
OldMarksman is online now  
Old July 9, 2010, 11:50 AM   #48
ice9_us
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2008
Posts: 101
not sure

If i am in fear of my life and pulling the gun...
i only know i am taking aim for the biggest part of the body..
no head.. no leg.. foot, or anything.... it takes to long, and really...
hitting a fast moving target that small is not likely... espically if your moving..
then to zero in on a hand size target area like the hip.. no way..
not me...

I am not sure what i would do in that situation... I only know if i aim.. it is for the area i have least chance of missing... The only thing i am sure i would worry about is where that round goes after my shot..

With that in mind.. eariler post of a guy getting his house broken into at 3:30 am.. i am worried about stuff like that.. did he use all 6 rounds?

good reason for a shot gun..
ice9_us is offline  
Old July 9, 2010, 11:56 AM   #49
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,798
Could we tune up the punctuation and capitialization a touch?

It makes a post hard to read. We staff like that sort of thing.

Please.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old July 9, 2010, 11:59 AM   #50
IRONPONY
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2009
Location: houston \ flatonia texas
Posts: 224
I would stay outside from a safe distance ,calling 911, & observing all that I can to help the police with info.
I have about 15 weapons in my home & if someone is in there taking my chit & I only have one handgun on me, I will wait for the authorities to arrvie for sure, unless me & the badguy are face to face.
If that moment comes into play, then it is on old west style.
__________________
GUNS & FREEDOM !
IRONPONY is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14902 seconds with 7 queries