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Old July 7, 2010, 01:21 AM   #26
bamaranger
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IDPA stage

This is similar, but not quite on track w/ the OP.

At our recent IDPA match, we ran a stage where the shooter pivoted 180 degrees (back to targets, pivot and shoot) and engaged 2 targets with 3 rds each: 2 torso, 2 torso, 1 head, 1 head. Distance was about 3 yds. Shot from concealment.

Best 3 times were 3.11, 3.16, 3.17. All zero down. The 3.11 shooter fired an extra round, otherwise he'd have gone well under 3.0. First rounds were being fired at about 1.05, I think. Two Glock 9's and a Browning HP .40.

Additionally, the first stage for the agency handgun qual is 3rds in 2 secs, at 3 yds, from a duty rig. Two evolutions, for 6 rds.
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Old July 7, 2010, 05:58 AM   #27
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I have to warm up a couple of times before I can draw from concealed and hit at 3 yds. in 1.5 seconds. Can't do it on demand. Some draw times are about 1.3, most are over 1.5.

Most of my practice includes moving laterally as I draw. To beat the timer I'd stand still and start with hand on lower vest and 1.3 is a good time for an 'ol geezer like me.

To beat Bubba, which is more important, I practice moving laterally and that slows things down slightly, though completing a short step before the draw is complete speeds things up a little. Gabe Suarez has that down real good.

Last edited by Nnobby45; July 7, 2010 at 06:04 AM.
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Old July 7, 2010, 06:36 AM   #28
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I'm pleased that someone admits that they do better when they're "warmed up" and aren't so good from a cold start, so to say. I'm no different and would also admit that often as not I'm too "blown" to do much of anything at all. If you had to shoot a rifle match at the end of a half-mile run, it might possibly affect your performance. In my case, I find my physical abilities halfway through a ten mile hike in the hills aren't quite as good as when I started out, especially in the sort of weather we've been having.
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Old July 7, 2010, 08:06 AM   #29
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absolutely. i spend about 30 dry firing and practicing draw before i'm getting smooth. been going to the range a lot recently so the times been cut down but it's a very perishable skill. moving and drawing is great also. adds some more muscle memory that is very useful
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Old August 8, 2010, 12:36 AM   #30
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old, but finally got some vids and i thought i'd post em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih0TGhgrXJw
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Old August 8, 2010, 05:58 AM   #31
Glenn Dee
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IPSIC is certainly gaming. IDPA has for the most part become gaming. I thought this conversation was about a real world situation.

If someone has the drop on you... you've lost the draw. He's got you. I'm not suggesting that the fight is in any way over... But a quick draw isnt the answer.

If someone has the drop on you. You've failed at situational awareness, you've lost the draw. I'm not suggesting that your helpless... But you are in deep doo-doo. What can one do in such a situation? Suggestions?

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Old August 8, 2010, 06:11 AM   #32
Rich Miranda
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When I practice drawing and shooting, I focus more on technique as opposed to speed. I try to make sure that I can carry out each individual action correctly, without any snags or hangups. I don't time myself, but I reckon three to four seconds is about right. The way I figure, slow and smooth is better than fast and reckless.

While a fast draw may come in handy someday, I feel that the extra time to ensure that the gun slides smoothly out, the hand gets a solid grip, and those first few rounds make into the target, make it a better proposition than a fast draw.

But, as with everything, do what makes you feel best.
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Old August 8, 2010, 06:56 AM   #33
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I've never been timed either but I do know that trying to draw from an inside-waistband holster from under a pullover square bottom workshirt worn tail out is not only slow, it's difficult. At least it's not impossible. Speed picks up a little from beneath a canvas vest.

Never having been in a remotely similiar situation, I don't know if I'd have to presence of mind to do anything. I say that because I think it'd be a good idea to start moving. So realistically, you might need to do a draw while you are on the move. But that comment isn't based on any experience.

Although the question was about a fast draw from concealment, that doesn't necessarily imply that you would only need to draw on a human target, judging from all the bear threads here.
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Old August 8, 2010, 07:35 AM   #34
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it's why you practice. once you get it stuck in your brain, under stress, that's how you'll perform. granted, i'm in an indoor which usually i'm not. we usually practice kneeling, moving to cover, and something we recently started doing was standing next to someone and instead of having a timer to start you, the other person just shoves you to the ground, then you draw and fire so it works on a little more or a jerk reaction.
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Old August 8, 2010, 08:22 AM   #35
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This and the high incidence of mutual suicide in FOF are the two main reasons I'm somewhat skeptical of the applicability of all lessons learned from FOF to the real world.
With Modern Technique stand-and-deliver shooting, yes, mutual suicide is the outcome of most FoF encounters.

The training I have has taught us to move off the line of fire (and not just the one or two side-steps, either) while drawing and then returning fire, escaping through a door, or whatever it takes to avoid being shot.

FoF that incorporates moving and shooting (as seen on many dash-cam/youtube videos) is very close to what happens.

FWIW, I usually have already moved two or three steps before I even have my gun out and start shooting (no, I don't do this at public ranges ).

And I find appendix carry to be overall faster than 3-5:00 positions.
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Old August 8, 2010, 10:37 AM   #36
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Not sure about time for one shot, but we regularly work on presenting the weapon and unloading the mag on multiple, color-coded targets in 8.5 - 13 seconds. This stresses accuracy, proper acquisition and timing.

It will cure what ails ya.
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Old August 8, 2010, 01:01 PM   #37
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Open draw? 1.5-2.0 seconds. That is when Im leveled and deploying the 1st shot. Concealed sometimes can be a pain thats why I continually practice. CCW--- 2.0-4.0 seconds-- That needs to come down a bit. I agree with the reactionary curve. In a SD situation your nervous enough, you draw time is probably going to go down by a couple of secs. Get to cover or just start moving like the other poster said. If you start moving really rapidly maybe you can get him a little distracted. If he hits you as a moving target there is a greater chance it will be in a less vital area. If you go down and are hit, he comes at you keep firing at him. There may be something seriously wrong with my stomach etc., but I'll worry about that later. I wont stop until Im incapacitated.
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Old August 9, 2010, 07:36 AM   #38
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I've never timed myself from concealment but I shot my first IDPA match a couple of weeks ago and one stage was draw from a "surrender" position with our hands in the air like we were being held up and fire 2 shots at each of three targets from about 2yds. I was shooting a S&W 1911 9mm Pro and a Springfield Loaded .45 and the Safariland 6377 ALS holster I wear for work. I managed 3.6secs with the .45 (fumbled the safety) and 2.78secs with the 9mm, no penalty points either time. The 2.78secs was the fastest time on that stage, I was pretty happy about that.
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Old August 9, 2010, 11:47 AM   #39
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If someone has the drop on you. You've failed at situational awareness, you've lost the draw. I'm not suggesting that your helpless... But you are in deep doo-doo. What can one do in such a situation? Suggestions?

Glenn Dee
Quote:
The training I have has taught us to move off the line of fire (and not just the one or two side-steps, either) while drawing and then returning fire, escaping through a door, or whatever it takes to avoid being shot.
I agree with the idea of movement, a large step to the side forces the "Bad Guy" to adjust his aim before he can shoot you. It takes time for him to do so, which give you time to act.

I've never had the chance to test the idea in formal force on force training, but it has worked effectively in both paintball and airsoft when I was younger.

More recently it worked to amazing effect in a situation involving my 10 year old cousin, a 20 round drum fed nerf pump action, and a single shot nerf pistol.

Multiple side steps were able to keep him from making a shot until I had a chance to take mine. Though I doubt you can draw any meaningful conclusions from that senario (except that my cousin doesn't like fair fights)

In any case, if someone has the drop on you, you're pretty much screwed. Moving off the line may give you enough time to make up the difference.
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Old August 9, 2010, 12:22 PM   #40
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Yep. If someone gets the drop your going to mostly likely get hit. Where that is depends on what you do. Even if you just started to juke a big side to side as you run it could throw them off. When I don't have time/money for real steel. My brother and I practice with airsoft gas guns. I got a 1911 close enough to my S&W1911.
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Old August 9, 2010, 06:42 PM   #41
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IMO, one's 'draw times' from open or concealment against a stationary paper target are irrelevant.

What are you really testing?

Quote:
I agree with the idea of movement, a large step to the side forces the "Bad Guy" to adjust his aim before he can shoot you. It takes time for him to do so, which give you time to act...Multiple side steps were able to keep him from making a shot until I had a chance to take mine.
The idea of 'side-steps' is merely for range safety. In real life, you may have the whole clock position to move to, not just 3- or 9 o'clock. The courses I've taken with SI (both FoF and live-fire) allowed us to move in other directions than merely left/right or forward/back.

In my FoF experience, moving to the 11 or 1 O'clock positions (if possible) cause the BG to have to correct the most, and giving you time to draw and shoot, escape, or even go 'hands-on' as the situation dictates.

I realize you may not be able to move in any direction at any time, due to walls, furniture, or terrain. Just realize there are other ways to move beside a 'side-step'.
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Old August 9, 2010, 06:54 PM   #42
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Smince -- I should have made the point of all movement as well. I agree side stepping is mostly for range saftey but can work. I really was talking about moving in all directions, I should have elaborated. Thats was interesting what you said about 11 and 1 throws them the most. Im interested could you explain that a bit more please?
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Old August 9, 2010, 11:31 PM   #43
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2qKW-Clupk
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Old August 10, 2010, 03:59 AM   #44
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Im interested could you explain that a bit more please?
Sure.

Get a training partner and a blue gun/toy gun/airsoft and try this. When he points at you move to the 5 or 7:00 position. The BG barely has to turn the gun to track you.

At 3 or 9, he only has to turn a bit more. Moving to the 11 or 1 positions causes the BG to have to turn and track you farther.

Any movement will reset his loop, but more than a step or two (if allowed by terrain) is desirable. The basic idea is to not be where he is aiming by the time he has his gun out or decides to shoot.

Does this work if the BG is already drawn on you? Depends. In FoF, with the gun pointed at me and the BG ready to shoot as soon as I make any move, I have rarely been hit, or just a nick in my side. I have easily been able to draw my own gun and put multiple shots in the Bg's side while he was still trying to track me.

Everything I've been taught in FoF classes seems to correlate quite well with actual dash-cam/security-cam footage I see on the 'net.

Last edited by smince; August 10, 2010 at 07:01 AM.
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Old August 10, 2010, 01:59 PM   #45
TylerD45ACP
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Sounds good Im going to practice that. I mean, I obviously though about moving in other directions too before. However, I didn't know which direction would throw them the most. Seems logical though moving in those directions would cause the most compensation. Especially movinging quickly say to 11 you get even 5-6 goods steps and get the gun on him, he has to move a bit. Like you said you got grazed in the side but you got shots on target. This seems like a good tactic, I think about movement. However, you just got me thinking about a more specific plan on where to move to. Appreciate the advice. Did you get to use SIMS? I want to do that, for right now its the little airsoft BB's for SIMS.
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Old August 10, 2010, 08:45 PM   #46
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Screem and run like a girl

I am not being silly here. Well yes I am. A friend was assalted by a "crazy man" no gun but the assailant ran up and threw a punch said friend being Quick dodged the punch and grbed the guy tossing him onto some grocery carts the guy starts "screeming like a girl" startleing my friend the guy rolls off the carts and runs away. Point is doing the unexpected like moving off the X or screeming or closing the distance, increasing distance, may give one time to draw or run away. Keeping your head is the hard part.
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Old August 10, 2010, 11:39 PM   #47
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Moving to 1 or 11 will cause a larger "reset," but do you really want to move toward the threat? All the real shooting stats I have seen show a dramatic increase in accuracy as distances close (especially at 5 and 3ft).

I would think creating distance would favor the practiced CCWer more than closing it. (generically speaking)
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Old August 11, 2010, 12:36 AM   #48
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Nooooo, that's way too dangerous - left hand like punching in extra zeros....can't let that happen!

Lol, had to giggle at that one....damn that left hand and the extra zeros, gonna drain your bank account
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Old August 11, 2010, 12:40 AM   #49
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I am not being silly here. Well yes I am. A friend was assalted by a "crazy man" no gun but the assailant ran up and threw a punch said friend being Quick dodged the punch and grbed the guy tossing him onto some grocery carts the guy starts "screeming like a girl" startleing my friend the guy rolls off the carts and runs away. Point is doing the unexpected like moving off the X or screeming or closing the distance, increasing distance, may give one time to draw or run away. Keeping your head is the hard part.
Nice, so your saying your frind got bum russhed by a bum, then threw him on the shopping carts, the guy starts crying like a little girl and runs off....why am I never there whan this stuff happens
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Old August 11, 2010, 04:52 AM   #50
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Moving to 1 or 11 will cause a larger "reset," but do you really want to move toward the threat? All the real shooting stats I have seen show a dramatic increase in accuracy as distances close (especially at 5 and 3ft).
That accuracy will be in your favor, as you aren't having to reset your loop or track your target, in my experience.
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