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Old July 3, 2010, 07:56 PM   #26
noyes
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6 ft away , maybe grab adam's apple ( rip & tear ) with one hand while grabbing his gun arm with the other hand ( to point it upwards , a safe direction ? ). Than i get to take his gun home for me to keep.

Maybe ?

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Old July 3, 2010, 08:04 PM   #27
Jim March
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Ummm...look, by far the best shot in this circumstances is back of the head, behind the ear, low in the skull. With anything from a .380 on up, that's not just instantly fatal, it destroys the entire motor control system. Even more than a "high area" headshot, it's a "drop and not even quiver" shot. "Lights out".

Sorry, but that is just plain fact. If you know what you're doing and you're in this situation, you're going to kill the guy if you take that shot.

There's no use sugar-coating it.
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Old July 3, 2010, 08:59 PM   #28
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Hard advice, but do nothing. Yes, the odds are that he will take the money and run. If he does, do nothing except be ready to give police a good ID, including a license number if you can get it.

IF he fires at the clerk or anyone else, then you can return fire as you can make the reasonable assumption that you are in mortal danger. Whether you can fire if he is fleeing after having killed or wounded someone is trickier but most states will allow it.

The worst case condition is that YOU open fire, miss the BG and kill the clerk yourself. Then you not only go to jail (and you will) and become liable for civil litigation, but you will always have the death of an innocent person on your conscience.

Some of the posters remind me of the silly "why don't cops shoot the hangnail off the bad guy's trigger finger" suggestions. I am no novice on guns, and was an LEO for a fair number of years. I never killed anyone and hope I never have to. But I am not about to bet the life of an innocent person on hitting a half-dollar size spot on a bad guy's head at a distance of even ten feet with a handgun.

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Old July 3, 2010, 11:43 PM   #29
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Is 'FOG' Foolish Old Goat ?
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Old July 3, 2010, 11:48 PM   #30
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Realistically, I would likely be facing situation 3 (no gun).
Demeanor is a big thing for me. If I think he is about to/has started shooting or otherwise hurt people, I go for the base of the skull with a strike, then graple/strike as best I can while trying to keep the muzzle away from me. (Assuming I don't hesistate too long)

If he strikes me as "threaten, grab, and run," I find the least visible spot behind the most solid object I can. (Also works for "Oops, I hesitated, and don't have a clear opportunity for a strike.")
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Old July 4, 2010, 12:28 AM   #31
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Gambling that the bad guy will do no harm is a mistake.
Playing the odds with an armed bad guy is playing Russian roulette.

If you're afraid that you will not be able to shoot without hitting innocent people then more training is needed to raise your confidence and skill level.

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Old July 4, 2010, 01:10 AM   #32
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if you leave him be, you gamble with the chance of him shooting the employee. its a win lose situation. i mean, this probably isn't his firs robbery and i doubt he robbing mcdonalds to feed his wife and 12 kids. you kill him, and there's one less dirt bag in the world and you may have saved the life on an innocent: win. you don't and who's to say that he doesn't turn the gun on you after the employee?: lose. play it safe, shoot the guy. there's plenty of less lethal options as well.

i'm no psychologist or cop but statistically how many armed robbers have the intent to kill? just wondering if anyone knows
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Old July 4, 2010, 01:22 AM   #33
Jim March
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If you can't hit a target the size of a softball at 6ft out, time to hang up your hardware.

Now granted, the question is "can you do it under stress?" I think I can. I've been in enough hairy messes (mostly on two wheels) to think I can keep it together long enough to get a shot off.

Most fast food places are single storey, unless we're talking about the deep inner city. If it's a single floor, crouching can send the round flying above bystanders on the other side of the target.

Do a 360 threatscan the moment you know the target is down. Goblins run in packs.
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Old July 4, 2010, 10:52 AM   #34
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FOG = fat old guy. Got the term from a complaint to Mr. Hansen about some articles in SWAT. The poster wanted more high speed low drag guys in the mag, thought there were too many fat old guys. It's a common body type at matches and civilian classes. Like me.

BTW, grabbing the gun and waving it in the air is a way to see it go off and you can lose control. You don't really want to go H2H unless you are superbly trained. Even then it's a risk. Look at the cops shot with their own weapons.

It's all differential risk outcomes.

Oh, sports fans - we've forgotten the ever popular secret backup guy. Think about that. Commonly used in FOF training and in the real world.

When you are H2H or engaging one, the other shoots you.
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Old July 4, 2010, 12:43 PM   #35
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All of you owe it to yourselves to test out the "armed perp" scenario.
12 feet away is awfully close and 6 feet away is too close for any handgun to be fired by a anyone thinking they have the time to fire.

A handgun within or at 6 feet from the one who has decided to move to take the gun or tackle has the clear advantage.

Try it out. Give a dummy gun to someone and have him or her wield it at you pointed at you etc. If you decide to take that gun or take out that person with your body you will succeed way before the gun is fired.
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Old July 4, 2010, 06:25 PM   #36
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If he shoots, he is dead. Otherwise he lives to rob again.
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Old July 4, 2010, 06:44 PM   #37
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6 feet away? Are you in his peripheral view? Is there another perp, possibly blocking the door? What is the perp saying to the cashier? Is he demanding money or is he shouting he's going to end his life? Are the employees behind the counter in your line of sight if you decide to draw and aim your firearm? Are they ducking and running or crawled in a corner?

There are so many other questions that I honestly don't see where ANYONE can give a definitive answer. If the perp is demanding money at the moment and giving the employee the chance to comply, then my answer to your question is NO, I would NOT shoot. In my opinion, shooting someone that's looking to rob some cash from a public establishment and isn't providing direct, immediate threat to my life or to my loved ones isn't in the cards.
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Old July 4, 2010, 08:00 PM   #38
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If you go with a body shot I think I read the incapacitation time with a 357 magnum is something like 3.5 seconds- plenty of time to do a lot of harm, so it is either a head shot or nothing. It really is a judgment call, normally, let the guy have the money and do nothing- probably the best bet BUT if he looks really crazy- like he might just shoot up the place- then maybe go for it. Of course a lot also depends on how good you are in shooting under such situations- such as if you have been in military combat, etc.
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Old July 5, 2010, 03:53 AM   #39
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I'm NOT trying to argue with anyone or insult people in the least. I just want to point something out.

Unless you've shot someone in the head, make zero assumptions about how that shot will turn out. When folks say, "If you can't hit a certain area from 6', then hang up your hardware" IMHO, have never had to shoot someone in an intense situation.

Everyone likes to think, especially men, that they will perform under pressure and be the hero of the day. WIN!

In all reality, you are very unlikely to hit where you aim, even from six feet, simply due to the amount of adrenaline that will be flowing through your body.

I spent just shy of a decade in 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. We were Aviators, not door kickers. However, during certain training scenarios, we were trained in CQB with our hands, with knives and with handguns/sub machine guns, as well as all manner of rifles, mostly in an urban environment. Quite often, this was internal training but during training missions, we trained with our various customers. Some of us also took great pains to ensure we had personal friendships in place that allowed us to further our training on our own time with SF, SEALS, Force Recon and the like. Also, on almost every training mission we did with these various organizations, there were plenty of opportunities for us to increase our personal knowledge of various weapons and how to employ them. I was an adrenaline junky too. Fast roping and rappelling out of Blackhawks, check. Recreational parachuting, check. Fast motorcycles and cars, rock climbing, bungee jumping, bar brawls, knife fights in South America and many other adrenaline slathering activities and events? Check.

Even after all that training/experience, and having been in a position to kill bad guys in the past, when an event occurred that required me to draw my M9 for a very close shot, under 10 feet, I still almost bungled it. It's a lot different when firing from a moving platform like a helicopter killing people than it is to kill right in front of you. Muscle memory? I had it in spades. Accuracy? I was noted as one of the best shots in my Brigade and was often tasked with conducting firearms training for fellow Soldiers. But when you make your first, up close shot at a BG, there's a BUNCH of physiological things that happen in a person from sweating adrenaline to mental mind humping. It will affect every individual differently. So forgive me when I say this. If you think you'll take that shot and it will be a clean ending to the situation, you ARE making too many assumptions.

Why do I say this? Because handgun training is a perishable skill. Because unless you've actually shot someone, you never know what you'll do. Most people who honestly think they will shoot probably WILL. But let me tell you something. Be ready to shoot again and be ready to feel the impact on you as a human being. The good thing about being at war, my victim's family wasn't on the local news talking about how he was trying to get his life straightened out, how he was a father of these two kids you see and so on.

I agree with you. A bad guy is a bad guy no matter what. Otherwise, he wouldn't be in McDonald's holding the place up. Great. But killing your fellow human being will have an affect on you. To think otherwise is foolish. If you've been in the military, LEO or a health professional who is used to dealing with what's left of a head when shot, that impact may be minimal. But even in the military, seeing the situation myself where a person made a kill for the first time, the large majority of those people we NOT capable of then scanning their surroundings for any follow on targets. When a headshot is made right there in front of you, the amount of blood that comes with it is, quite literally, most of it. The brain is trashed and the BG is down, but that BG then goes on to bleed out what looks like every last drop of blood as the heart continues to pump simply from left over electrical impulses.

And having just seen a head come apart on you, a real, just recently breathing, talking and moving human head, and then all the blood that comes with it, is a vicious, shocking assault on the senses.

I don't know. Some folks in this thread make it sound like it would be so easy a thing to do. So easy to hit right behind the ear or the base of the skull. DO NOT make that assumption or "train" your mind into thinking that will be the case. Otherwise, when you're presented with a situation where you may be able to save a situation by taking out the bad guy, if you don't have a behind the ear shot or a base of the skull shot, you may just freeze up not knowing what to do. And bad guys tend to get pretty aggressive when they see someone standing there pointing a gun at them who hasn't fired yet.

Hopefully, some of you will know what I mean. I don't feel like I've explained myself very well. Probably from a lack of sleep.
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Old July 5, 2010, 06:17 AM   #40
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I'm 44. I haven't owned a car in over 20 years. I've got a lot of time in on high-performance motorcycles. That's a lot of years of controlling adrenaline dumps. I think I can cope. I could be wrong, mind you...
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Old July 5, 2010, 09:42 AM   #41
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I'm sure you will Jim.

I want to say something now before someone says something. When I said that I've seen Soldiers take their first life and not be able to do follow up scans, I meant their first life up close and personal. And typically, they were only "out of it" for about 15-30 seconds. And if you yelled their name at them, they started moving. It's just that initial shock of seeing what you've done that I'm referring too.
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Old July 5, 2010, 10:06 AM   #42
Jim March
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Let me put it this way...some of you know what I mean about an "overdrive" state, where everything slows way the hell down, sound goes quiet, you tend to do tunnel-vision unless you know enough to deliberately counter that, your emotions go flat...whole spectrum of "special effects".

I've been there eight times now. Only one in anything like "combat". The first was at age 12...dodged a natural disaster. The rest were bike-related.

Controlling the post-event shakes has gotten easier. Last couple of times, no real shakes or "crash" afterwards at all. Whatever is going on is some kind of natural drug, way past just "adrenalin" on it's own. The rise/peak/crash cycle is just insanely fast, a much wilder ride than any stimulant I've ever read about. And whatever it is, you can build up a tolerance .

I don't have to guess - I *know* that'll happen if I ever have to draw a gun.

And I know that at least in my case, fine motor control won't be affected, based on some of the crazy stuff I've managed on two wheels including very fine adjustments to throttle/front brake/clutch/shifter all at once.

So...yeah, I'm quite sure I can get in over my head. No question. But I'm also throwing BIG energy downrange, high-end 357Mags, with the best set of sights I've ever used on any handgun.

I think I can cope.
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Old July 5, 2010, 10:13 AM   #43
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Adrenaline junkies, in my experience, tend to do much better in these situations. If you can control the "Double AF", adrenaline ass hole factor as we used to call it, then you should do well in just about any situation.

We called it Double AF because of all the "squeezing" that goes on. Eyes go tunnel, lids start to close, mouth gets puckered sucking in air, blood vessels force blood to the center, your ass tightens up, you get the picture.
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Old July 5, 2010, 11:39 AM   #44
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Retired15T,

Thanks for sharing your insight. I'm sure you have seen more crap in your lifetime than most of us armchair quarterbacks combined. I was wondering if those people who had their first up close kills froze before their pulled the trigger or after. I'm sure they had good training before they were in that situation.

I believe that I would be able to pull the trigger even though I don't have any prior experience doing so. I'm also sure that I will feel all of the things you mentioned AFTER I have pulled the trigger. In fact, my lack of experience may even give me less hesitation to pull the trigger since I have never witnessed all of the blood and gore nor experienced the after-effects. As for hitting where I am aiming, I am sure the adenaline will affect me, but 6 feet is pretty close. I have been shooting for almost half my life and I added a grip activated laser. I think I should be able to score a center of mass hit.

I am not saying that I would simply drop the bad guy. If you read my previous posts, I am saying that I am not going to defend someone elses property with lethal force. Now if the bad guy says something that makes me believe he is planning on shooting people anyways or of he threatens me or my family, I will have no hesitation before shooting him.

Most likely, I will observe and try to get away from the situation. I will try and get my weapon as discreetly as possible in case things go down hill.
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Old July 5, 2010, 12:22 PM   #45
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Jim March....nice to see that someone can relate to SHTF bike stuff. I'm still here so I guess my reactions have been good so far......
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Old July 5, 2010, 01:55 PM   #46
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I've seen in FOF at close distances:

1. The gun taken away
2. The guy with the gun drawn shot by a guy with a holstered gun
3. The charging, tackle guy get hosed by the gun carrier

There is no guarantee that you will take the gun and your opponent isnt't savy when they are pointing the gun at you.
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Old July 5, 2010, 04:33 PM   #47
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Some of you guys need to click on the links in Glenn's sig and seriously read what he's written. I can tell you from personal experience that there is no way you can know what you will do in a given situation until you are in it. I don't care how many times you've rehearsed it in your mind. Reality is different. The best you can do is train to hone your motor and muscle memory skills to overcome the black that you will be in at the time and hope that you have enough presence of mind to do the right thing. That's why drawing and firing your weapon should always be the last resort.

As Glenn points out in his paper on training, the guys that die first are the hard chargers who believe they can do anything or that the situation won't affect their ability to aim and fire. The reality is, you don't know. If you think you do, you're very likely to become a victim.

Reminds me of the joke about the old bull and the young bull spotting a herd of cows......
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Old July 5, 2010, 05:03 PM   #48
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baldeagl1: right, but...one leeetle problem.

That "overdrive" state is only going to kick in if I think somebody's life is at stake. 7 out of those 8 times it was my butt on the line, once it was somebody else's. What I can do while in that state just cannot be measured via force-on-force.

Again: whatever is going on is "naturally drug induced". It has a rise-peak-crash cycle like any other psychoactive drug.

I used to be into self hypnosis to a moderately advanced degree. I pondered whether or not it was possible to program in a deliberate "overdrive trigger". My conclusion was that it was, but I'd have to be batpoop crazy to try.

In my experience, as best I can tell, it has a rise/peak/crash cycle of roughly 1 second / 30 seconds / 5 minutes. Crack cocaine has a reported "cycle" of about 2 minutes / 15 minutes / hour+, which is about the wildest psychopharmaceutical roller coaster you can strap yourself into.

Whatever is causing "overdrive" makes crack look like the kiddie ride outside a grocery store in comparison.

Once I realized THAT, any inclination to do a manual trigger of that stuff went away. Permanently. Good way to get very dead in an extra-exciting fashion if you don't turn the stuff off fast enough. I know of no way of safely testing it in a dojo or force-on-force.

I do however have a pretty good idea of what it can do, in my personal case.
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Old July 5, 2010, 05:03 PM   #49
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Personally I'm torn between not wanting to not help someone obviously in need, but also needing to watch out for myself. stuff can go sideways in a courtroom really quick.

I'd probably stand by ready to draw if need be and just pray he only wants the money.
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Old July 5, 2010, 05:41 PM   #50
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Quote:
Personally I'm torn between not wanting to not help someone obviously in need, but also needing to watch out for myself. stuff can go sideways in a courtroom really quick.
If that was the attitude that the minutemen took, and they only defended their own lives and property, allowing the British to run roughshod over the public, disarming them, hanging them, taking their lands, well, we'd have lost.

The people who went to war in the 18th and 19th century to defend their fellow men were in the worst possible position. Read about bunker hill, Washington's men at valley forge, and so forth. These were men who left their families at home, knowing full well that marauders might burn their houses, kill their women and children, steal their livestock, and went to war under conditions that almost no modern american would tolerate for even a moment without abandoning whatever cause it was.

That wasn't sitting down on the bus or drawing a gun on an armed bandit, that was freezing to death in snow without shelter, dying of gangrenous bullet or bayonet wounds, loss of limbs, and horrendous things that people now can't even comprehend, much less accept as a risk that they must take as a duty to humanity.

One man in Yellowstone dove into a boiling hot spring to rescue a dog, but I'm hearing people here say that they wouldn't take a risk on an injury, criminal charges, lawsuit, death, or psychological pain to save another human's life.

I personally can't understand it at all. Millions of men took far greater risks than this, and did it just out of bravery of spirit and duty.

If my wife is made a widow, I'm sorry, but maybe someone else's wife won't be. She will be left with my insurance, at least, and maybe, the comfort that someone else will be alive, and maybe a dozen others because of my organs.

My mother died blind of neurological disease. Her corneas alone gave sight to two people. It was worth it.
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