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Old July 2, 2010, 07:17 PM   #1
willrussellville
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What to do in bad situation?

I realize this could/would be handled differently depending on the exact situation, but I would love to hear from some of you here.

Situation:
You are standing in line at McDonalds. There are few people in the store at 9:00pm. Guy walks up, pulls a semi, points at the teenager behind the register. You are 6 feet from the guy and he is looking anxiously at the teenager and shouting. Do you pull and fire? I believe the statistics show that he will get the money and run (am I correct)? Bad situation and concerns me:
1. If I fire, I have killed a human (bad deal). I must then live with the fact that he probably would have run off with $150 and everybody still alive.
2. If I don't fire and he kills the kid...(bad deal), #1 doesn't look so bad anymore.
3. If I don't have a weapon (bad deal) I don't worry about #1 or #2. But...he might kill the kid and several more including me..
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Old July 2, 2010, 08:04 PM   #2
Daryl
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1. If you fire, the perp may not be the only person you kill. Even a head shot can cause the perp to involuntarily pull the trigger when (s)he might not have otherwise. Trust me, if the perp is pointing a gun in my face, I don't want you to shoot that perp at that moment. At least let me duck first.

2. If you don't shoot, then the perp might go ahead and kill the kid. That's not your fault, although it would be easy to blame yourself. Accept that you're only human, and can only do so much.

The first thing I'm going to do is find cover. My goal is to make it home to my wife that night. If I can help someone else in the process of doing that, then I certainly will. Shooting the perp in your scenario would, IMO, increase the risk to the kid behind the counter, as well as anyone else in the restaurant.

In my state I'd be justified in shooting given the described scenario. I don't think that shooting at that moment would be a good choice though.

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Old July 2, 2010, 08:16 PM   #3
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Why are you armed?

Ask yourself.

For protection? OF whom? Yourself? or yourself and others?

Don't confuse legal responsibility with moral responsibility.

I can't, and won't tell you what to do. But I have an idea what I think I would do. And I'm a fair shot at only 6 feet.
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Old July 2, 2010, 11:06 PM   #4
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If it's possible to do so without harming anybody else, I'm going to shoot him in the lower head area. I'm going to drop him like a bad habit. He'll get one instant's worth of warning as I cock it, and the moment his barrel loses alignment with the clerk I'm going to fire a high-end 357.

No hesitation.

A good friend of mine was killed in a robbery after he gave up. He was a cab driver. My kid brother was next on the call rotation. The murderer called me for the ride - I talked to the SOB and dispatched that call. I have no tolerance for armed robbers. I'm going to apply the absolute max legal force I can, on sight, no qualms, no tears.
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Old July 2, 2010, 11:24 PM   #5
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What happens if you miss?
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Old July 3, 2010, 12:14 AM   #6
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Don't miss...

I like the thought of letting the guy just take care of his needs and letting him run, no one gets hurt. However, Jim and 44 make good points. You dont know what the intentions of the bad guy are untill they have been carried out.
Many of us couldent really say what we would do, until faced with the situation. But some people know what they would do, they have chosen to ingrain in them selves an automatic desicion. Kinda like Jim says, "No hesitation". That kind of reaction can save lives. Hesitation can easily become a missed oportunity, and be the difference between surviving or not. And that can apply to just about anything. Yet sometimes, a programed reaction is not the appopriate one.
I guess the best thing anyone can do is to follow their instincts/intuition.

Ultimately, life will take you where you need to go.
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Old July 3, 2010, 12:21 AM   #7
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Maybe my take is a bit different, as a retired LEO, could I pop him, no doubt. But there are many unknown factors, is the DB alone, does he have a friend sitting quietly in a corner eating a cheeseburger? Would the DB jerk his head as he shouts at the moment I fire and I blow his ear off, and then cause a gunfight in the McDonalds? Could that turn into a hostage situation? It is better sometimes to try to de-escalate the situation, speak calmly to yon pimple faced register boy, "just give him the money" or just back up and observe. If DB fires a shot or comes off target, maybe a double tap to upper torso, but then only if absolutely necessary. While I would have no problem killing a DB in this situation, I have others to think of, and I am not necessaraly in a good tactical situation. I would hate to be shot by a getaway driver or friend in a corner. Just my .002. I wouldnt second guess what any one else may do in this situation, just thinking out loud.

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Old July 3, 2010, 12:49 AM   #8
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McDonald's does not hire me to be their security guard and I am almost certain that they would prefer customers not doing ANYTHING other than be a good witness in the event of a robbery. I am in the fast food restaurant business and the loss of a couple of hundred bucks is much better than the store being closed for God knows how long so the dirt bag's remains can be removed and the restaurant cleaned up. Major chains such as McDonald's typically do regular cash pulls and the money is dropped into a time-delayed safe or a safe that only Brink's has keys to. Their exposure is usually pretty low.

Now if the dirt bag walks in and starts shooting up the place, I would certainly try and shoot him since he has gone from robbery to assault with a deadly weapon.
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Old July 3, 2010, 01:03 AM   #9
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"The hottest spot in hell is reserved for those who could have done some Good and declined." IOW: Do Your Best, In Everthing You Can.

Perp not looking at you? Finger on the trigger? Is he waving the gun around? What kind of gun does he have? (DAO? DAR? = He's gettin' one in he base of the skull.) If I think I can get him w/o injury to third parties, I'll try. If I think he will try to harm me or mine, I will try, regardless of risk to third parties.

The sooner more perps get dead = the sooner everyone gets to eat their Whopper in peace.
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Old July 3, 2010, 01:21 AM   #10
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Maybe the guy was mad because his order wasn't right.
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Old July 3, 2010, 02:09 AM   #11
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A lot depends on the demeanor of the perp too. They guy who comes in, quietly displays the gun and demands cash is probably not a huge threat. He's come here to "do his business" and get out. He's a serious threat only if challenged precisely because he will probably fight to get away.

The violent ones who start smashing things in their impatience are the ones that are unpredictable. They're as likely to shoot the clerk on their way out as not. And as mentioned, you cannot easily determine what they'll do in advance.

I'm of the opinion, by the way, that you believe the threats made by a criminal, but never any promises he makes about anyone's safety. Give me the money and no one gets hurt! cannot be taken as a promise of anyone's safety. The mere presence of his weapon says "I will inflict serious bodily harm to get what I want" so the threat must be considered real

If you're behind the guy and he's not dancing about like Mohammed Ali, a downward shot between his C-3 to C-5 (neck) vertebra will end the situation almost instantly. The downward angle is to prevent the bullet from exiting the throat area travelling towards the victim. But any CNS hit above the ribcage will "turn off" his legs (among other things).
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Old July 3, 2010, 09:07 AM   #12
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no matter how this turns out, don't forget, the guy with the the handgun pointed at the cashier, and doing the robbery, bears the over all responsibility for what happens to him, and to you.
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Old July 3, 2010, 10:51 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbob86
"The hottest spot in hell is reserved for those who could have done some Good and declined." IOW: Do Your Best, In Everthing You Can.

Perp not looking at you? Finger on the trigger? Is he waving the gun around? What kind of gun does he have? (DAO? DAR? = He's gettin' one in he base of the skull.) If I think I can get him w/o injury to third parties, I'll try. If I think he will try to harm me or mine, I will try, regardless of risk to third parties.

The sooner more perps get dead = the sooner everyone gets to eat their Whopper in peace.
Like I said, as a business owner, I'd much rather have a robbery than a shoot out. Can you guarantee that you won't miss and that shooting the dirt bag won't cause him to shoot the employee as well? I fully respect your right to self defense and have no problems with you shooting said dirt bag if he pointed the gun at you. You are not hired to protect anyone elses money. Do you really want to deal with the burden of shooting and killing someone, especially a couple of hundred buck of SOMEONE ELSES MONEY which is probably insured? What if the dirt bag is a gang banger and his dirt bag brothers seek retaliation? As I mentioned earlier, in a self defense situation (or defense of your family), you do whatever you need to do regardless of the circumstances. So save your self-righteous "hottest spot in hell" arguement for someone who cares.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
no matter how this turns out, don't forget, the guy with the the handgun pointed at the cashier, and doing the robbery, bears the over all responsibility for what happens to him, and to you.
And YOU bear the responsibility for YOUR actions as well. If you miss or cause the dirt bag to shoot the employee in the face, you are likely to be held liable.


Don't think that am sympathetic to dirt bags or hesitant to pull the trigger on someone who really needs it. There is a huge liability issue and you are defending someone else's property, which you have not been asked or paid to do. If the bad guy starts herding people into the back or give an indication that he is planning to hurt anyone, then by all means, drop him. I think one of the most difficult things for us as concealed carry permit holders is WHEN to take action.
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Old July 3, 2010, 10:52 AM   #14
Glenn E. Meyer
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There's no right answer - the best you can do is understand the situation and try to optimize outcomes that are important to you. Decide what those are. There are many.

However, before one, apriori, says that you should start the gun fight - I opine that you need some significant training. Most of us aren't military or LEOs to have experiences the real thing. But FOGs like me can do FOF exercises that are stress inducing and show you how this can go well or badly.

Then you have a set of paradigms that can aid your action.
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Old July 3, 2010, 11:26 AM   #15
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I'm glad to see that I'm not the only person to run these type of scenarios through my head. Sometimes when I lay awake in bed I think about these things.
In this situation, if my family is with me I'll pop him as quickly as I can, head shot with the CW45. From 6 ft away nailing a basketball-sized gourd should not be a problem at all. Will I have regrets? I'll regret that HE put ME in that situation and that now his friends and family will have to mourn and say, "But he was turnin' his life around and gettin' his GED."

EVERYONE who carries must imagine scenarios like this because it CAN happen. We need to have some mental preparation, in addition to range time, to meet a situation like this as clear headed as possible.

When you're in the store or at the mall, standing there holding your wives purchases like the mules that we often are, contemplate the scenario.....take in everything around you.....possible collateral damage, angles, possible cover......practice situational awareness...it may save some lives some day. If YOUR action today could prevent a rape or murder 2 yrs down the road, would you take that action?
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Old July 3, 2010, 11:51 AM   #16
Glenn E. Meyer
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Ahem, please tell me how I can get the optional crystal ball for my Eotech?

The problem with that predictive analogy is that the McDs robber is going to be a child rapist? Well, lets execute him then after conviction for the robbery?

Or if a kid has childhood conduct disorder, execute him as he may be likely to develop antisocial personality disorder and become a murdering sociopath?

Also, mental prep is good and range time is good but they are insufficient. Punching paper is not stressful or dynamic enough.

Let's be a touch realistic here. The best you can do is see if your action is the best way to limit the risk of grievous bodily harm to those involved and if you want to take the chance that such actions will go awry as compared to a moral statement. The latter might lead to a bad physical outcome but if you like making the statement, that's your choice and live (or die) with the consequences.

It's very easy to decide on the Internet. Being a FOG, I've trained in quite a few of these - sometimes I saved the day, sometimes I died. Sometimes, I was the BG and handled the good guy with ease. Sometimes, the scenario crew said I was rash or cowardly or did the right thing.

Absolute solutions don't exist.
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Old July 3, 2010, 02:21 PM   #17
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One thing that I think several people have missed is that this criminal isn't just stealing a couple of hundred dollars from McDonalds. He is assaulting the liberty of everyone who is there, robbing them of a sense of safety. Many of the people who suffer a violent crime are never the same again. While you might not be able to help the people who have already been victimized, if this criminal is stopped here how many future victims do we save.

With the scenario, we are not able to describe all the circumstances that must be evaluated. Considering the scenario given, if I was confident through my training and the circumstances involved that I could end the robbery then I would. Most likely I would seek cover, or at least play out the clock a bit to evaluate the situation. It is not likely that I would fire on the criminal while he had another victim under the gun. Once that gun came off target, or even worse the shooter opened fire, then I would respond aggressively with gunfire.

If the situation was such that armed response was not viable, then I would also be trying to observe and remember as much information as possible to aid in the police response.
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Old July 3, 2010, 02:41 PM   #18
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If you're 6 feet away you simply disarm him with your hands. It is faster than pulling and shooting a gun. Trust me. If you are under 12 feet to me with a gun pointed at me I can disarm you very fast and easily without you pulling your trigger.
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Old July 3, 2010, 03:12 PM   #19
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Not everyone is able to disarm a BG.

Not every BG is easily disarmed.

A bullet does not necessarily blow away someone.

Someone not yet blown away can still pull a trigger.

The only time I would intervene is if there is an indication that the BG wants no witnesses, in which case he has made my choice for me and I have no other options.

One must evaluate the circumstances as best they can and should act in a manner to save lives, even the BG’s if he is willing to just take the cash and run.
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Old July 3, 2010, 04:16 PM   #20
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These "would you" scenarios always leave so many variables that it's impossible to give a black and white answer. Are there others in the line of fire in front of or behind the BG? What are you carrying that day - your .380 or your .357? Is your carry piece instantly accessible or in an IWB under a zipped winter jacket that will draw attention when you go for it?

If the question is simply "Would you kill to protect another?" Then yes, I would - if the odds heavily favored me doing so without getting myself or the victim killed. If circumstances indicate that I might turn a simple robbery into a bloodbath, then I'd be a fool to start shooting.

In any case, I'd be in the process of (unobtrusively) getting my piece out and ready.
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Old July 3, 2010, 05:08 PM   #21
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I'm not going to sit and nitpick about the scenario. I'm going to follow the action, think very hard about it, and when all of the conditions are met, I'm going to kill him.

I owe my fellow humans my protection if possible. I hope that someone will stand up for me if my pimple faced kid is the one in danger.

Several years ago, I found myself in a parking lot, between someone who did his best to make me believe he was a banger, and a van from a church that was full of teenagers that he was shouting at.

If that banger had pulled the gun that he was pretending he had, I would have killed him.

You either stand up for your neighbor's children, or you aren't worth the air that you breath.

The ten commandments said it all: do unto (for) others as you would have them do for you.

That is one of the reasons I'm rather loathe to see concealed carry permits on an a shall give basis, I'm not sure I like the idea that any idiot who applies has the power to absolutely screw up a situation and get people killed, but how else are you going to arm citizens to stop and prevent crime?
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Old July 3, 2010, 05:14 PM   #22
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We are starting down the 'kill 'em trail' that leads to a closure.

Recall that the use of the lethal weapon is to stop the BG. Whether they die may be a consequence but not the primary goal.

There is no guarantee that you will kill someone. Nor is there any guarantee that you can disarm any person on the planet.

Pray continue but don't chest pound folks. If you want to act with lethal force, cut out the blood lust.

Thanks

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Old July 3, 2010, 05:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
1. If I fire, I have killed a human (bad deal). I must then live with the fact that he probably would have run off with $150 and everybody still alive.
2. If I don't fire and he kills the kid...(bad deal), #1 doesn't look so bad anymore.
3. If I don't have a weapon (bad deal) I don't worry about #1 or #2. But...he might kill the kid and several more including me..
You talk as though you'd just be an innocent bystander deciding whether to get involved in someone else's problem. It's real easy to see you at least robbed, or even shot and eliminated as a witness. Or shot for no reason at all. At 6 ft. away, YOU ARE INVOLVED! I think you might proceed, however you decide, as though your own life was in danger.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

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Old July 3, 2010, 06:23 PM   #24
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As mentioned, the situation will dictate my action(s) or, a lack thereof. I'm one of those guys who believes that you should help your fellow man any time you can. The Lord demands that we good guys protect each other from the bad guys.

CLIFF'S NOTES:

Calm myself down. Observe, think, react if needed. In most of these types of robberies, the BG just wants the money and he will leave and it would be foolish of me to bring my weapon into play. If he shoots the clerk, it sucks to be working for Mickie D's that day, but then the BG goes down from my weapon's discharge. I would not get involved unless the BG had already shown a propensity for actual violence and not just threatening violence. Yeah, the clerk is shot, but now the situation is much more controllable.


Long, rambling thoughts on "What If?"

Assuming the area is completely clear for the shot, assuming the BG is going to die instantly without firing his weapon in a nerve jerk reaction to being shot, I'd shoot him.

In reality, we don't know if the BG will pull the trigger or not when shot. So I would begin by getting my firearm ready, but not in the open yet. Then, easing myself back a bit to get out of his peripheral vision, but keeping the path of the shot clear of Mr. Pimples in case I miss or it's a through and through. T&T shots can and do happen even when shooting a BG in the head. I would then bring my weapon up. The clerk, Mr. Pimples, is going to look my way....he won't be able to help it as he sees me raising my weapon. I would then announce in a normal tone of voice for him to drop his weapon and get his hands where I can see them. This is going to make the BG think a cop, or at least an armed person, is off to his side:

He may comply immediately, situation over.

He may shoot the clerk and then I shoot him. Situation over and legally, you will probably be alright. At least in my State you would be. I doubt you would be in Liberal States. Situation over.

The BG probably will not shoot the clerk, but start turning towards me. I then do body-body-head. If his weapon drops as I'm firing, I will try to avoid the head shot. Situation over.

If the BG has a buddy in the place, you will have a more severe situation on your hands. If the BG allows me too, I'd be using my peripheral vision with small head movements to attempt to see the second guy. If a shot is fired at me, hopefully I will then shoot BG #1 before I die. This will, in turn, likely cause the second guy to un-ass the place since he has just killed someone. Situation sucks, but it's over. But if the second guy continues the robbery, then he will be flush with adrenaline and likely make mistakes. He will probably put a few more rounds into my stubborn head.

In any situation where the BG doesn't have a buddy in the place with him, if it turns out I've disarmed him, shot him or he has given up, I will immediately begin scanning the doors for the *possible* get-a-way driver. If a get-a-way driver comes in, the first BG gets a round to the biscuit and I would then engage the secondary target. Most likely though, the driver is going to haul booty out of there to save his own hide.

I could keep on going, fleshing this out in another hundred different scenarios and still, someone else would be able to add another "What-If" to it and/or poke holes in what I've said.

Unpredictable is a word specifically crafted by humans for just such a conversation.

However, I've been there, done that while I was in the Army. The situation allowed for me to still be here typing and the other guy isn't. It sucks too. There's just nothing in this world that will haunt your dreams more so than taking a life.

No matter if you're regarded as a hero, publicly adored, given medals, keys to the city, women falling all over you, your actions will haunt you for the rest of your life. Especially if it wasn't a clean kill that requires follow up rounds.
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Old July 3, 2010, 07:01 PM   #25
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Good point. I should not use those exact words, and I know better than to use those words.

what I meant to say, was that I am going to do whatever i deem necessary to prevent injury, or further injury, and the only things I know of to stop a man with a gun from shooting another are generally very lethal. Lacking a taser, I am goint to without exception or question use the most extreme method that is available to me, to completely, totally, immediately, remove the threat that the guy poses.

sometimes, it will be simple enough to wait unti an opportunity to get him at gunpoint, disarmed, and on the floor. If he cocks his weapon or escalates in any manner that provokes me to attack, it goes back to what my old boss used to say to me when I made a mistake:

"Boy, I hope you gave your heart to god, because your *** is mine."

I am then just going to hope, and pray, that the uncontrolled chaos that defines not only gunfights, but life in general, doesn't throw anything at me that I'm unable to handle.

It's basically that simple. You observe, you decide whether to act, then when to act, and then, you do whatever it takes to stop the attacker. If it can be done peaceably, cool. Words are environmentally friendly, as long as it isn' trap. Bullets aren't so freindly to the environment. They're just as bad as second hand smoke!
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