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Old July 4, 2010, 12:48 PM   #26
pythagorean
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The Colt Single Action Army is the fastest shot out of a holster. I have said this numerous times. It is designed to naturally point with one hand. It merely needs to clear a holster to be fired with lethality--no need to raise the gun to eye level at all. It is like pointing a finger.

The Colt is grasped in the holster. The thumb cocks and the hand draws and points. The intended target is fired upon beneath a second and has just captured a bullet.
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Old July 4, 2010, 01:02 PM   #27
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When I mention safety, I am chiefly referring to safety while practicing but obviously you don't want to be more of a danger to yourself than your opponent is.

Nice to see some folks still believe in single action revolvers. He's probably my age. But I think double action revolvers are probably just as fast, easier to load (and unload) and faster on the second shot. For those of you who can get in a little fast draw practice with live ammo, you can leave the first chamber empty so that a second trigger pull is necessary to get off a shot. That makes it a little safer at first.

I wouldn't call fast draw a tool so much as an element of the action, perhaps even a basic element. It probably isn't going to be necessary all that often, nor will blinding speed be possible for most people. But one problem that seems to crop up is who is qualified to progress to even a beginner's level. In other words, some people think that it is an advanced subject of study and something that shouldn't even be attempted until you have mastered every other aspect of shooting handguns. Can you hit an eighteen inch circle at 300 yeards from a supported position with a handgun? Could you kill a rabbit at 50 yards? That's what Elmer Keith thought you should be able to do before even beginning to think about what he called combat quick draw. Of course, rabbits are much bigger where he lived and moreover, he thought the .44 Magnum was perfect for this purpose, which I think I already mentioned.

The only problem with this is that pretty soon you have rationalized away any general right to have a pistol in the first place. Way too dangerous for ordinary folks to have. Better let the pros handle the problem.
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Old July 4, 2010, 01:36 PM   #28
grey sky
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Hugh O'Brian

I tried to google this but did not find a reference. Hugh O'Brian played Wyat earp on TV in the 50s and was reported as being a fast draw.
I thought he also accidently shot his toe practicing. I can't verify this. Suffice it to say. Be carfull out there.
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Old July 4, 2010, 01:36 PM   #29
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BlueTrain, I hope you didn't take my post as a crusade to stop beginners from learning to draw and fire quickly, accurately, and smoothly. I'm simply saying that if you cannot practice quick draw safely then you shouldn't worry about practicing QD as you have more pressing issues concerning safe gun handling.
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Old July 4, 2010, 03:07 PM   #30
pythagorean
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I do the quick draw with my Colts. I don't understand why some have shot themselves in the foot. The gun is cocked with the thumb and the trigger finger does not fire until that hammer is back. No fanning. All one handed.
I am 52 years old. No DA like SW or Colt or any other feels and draws like a Colt SAA of any barrel length or caliber. None.
I guarantee the first shot from a holstered gun that the fastest is the Single Action Army style. There are other guns of the same style that are just as fast.
But the Colt is my favorite.
It spells COLT when the hammer is thumbed back and it is balanced pointing where it is pointed.
No auto, no other is as fast as the Colt or similar for that first shot.

They say the first shot is the one that counts.
I believe it.
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Old July 4, 2010, 04:49 PM   #31
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threegun...if you get access to that tampa dashcam video i would like to hear the details. I am assuming the suspect fired from inside the vehicle, because had he been removed from the car by the arresting officers they would have searched him, there being an outstanding warrant.

to keep it on topic...while i dont agree with the criteria Elmer Keith would hold people to, i agree with the sentiment. I would consider myself a fair shot with a handgun, but until i have more practice and can consistently shoot better in a slow fire, controlled environment, I dont see the point of trying to practice any type of drawing and firing. Seems like all i would get out of it at this point are bad habits.
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Old July 4, 2010, 09:58 PM   #32
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I am assuming the suspect fired from inside the vehicle, because had he been removed from the car by the arresting officers they would have searched him, there being an outstanding warrant.
I am picturing the incident happening while the suspect is outside the car, at the moment he was being told he was under arrest. Can't see him murdering both of the officers (in the head) while seated in the car.

Here is a quote from the Tampa Chief: Chief Castor said as soon as they put their hands on the suspect, the man spun around, pulled out a gun and shot both officers in the upper body.
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Old July 5, 2010, 09:11 AM   #33
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Ftom14, It was outside and I will get you the details when and if I get them.
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Old July 6, 2010, 06:40 AM   #34
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backpedaling

Quote:
..backpedaling..
Agree with Gunsite and others; you wouldn't want to continue moving straight backwards. But when I mentioned backpedaling, it was just one part of a drill, which has you taking 2-3 steps backwards out of immediate contact distance (as if grappling upright) while drawing, and firing on one or multiple targets. It was not a "tactical" recommendation per se.

Likewise, in the previous posting, I had mentioned moving off-line from the attacker and immediately directing your movement towards cover as a tactical recommendation, and something that most military/LE training has trended towards over the last five years. I also mentioned target & background identification, which nobody ever seems to talk about.

Remember that you might not always be drawing on somebody who has a gun. In my opinion (and it is shared by many) a knife has the potential to be far more lethal within 4 feet. Given the option, I would elect to be shot by a .45 caliber in the shoulder from 4 feet than slashed in the shoulder with a 4.5 inch blade.

I find it amusing that 3 or 4 posters pick up on one single word in a post, take it out of context, and admonish the "practice" as not "tactically sound."

Last edited by booker_t; July 6, 2010 at 06:46 AM.
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Old July 6, 2010, 06:56 AM   #35
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In my opinion a DA is superior to SA only when it comes to reloading speed. If you cock the hammer as the gun comes down from recoil you'll be firing just as fast. Of course if your just pulling the trigger and not aiming the double action will be faster but then again the single action can be fanned.

However, unless in the backcountry most of us won't be carrying single action revolvers, they're a bit to large to easily conceal. I like carrying Smith Airweights but to me they almost seem too small and too light to draw quickly. You really have to make sure you get a positive grip before pulling the gun from the holster.
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Old July 6, 2010, 07:05 AM   #36
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Quote:
I find it amusing that 3 or 4 posters pick up on one single word in a post, take it out of context, and admonish the "practice" as not "tactically sound."
In your post you didn't say "short distance". I assumed the drill was to draw and fire while backpedaling. That IMO isn't sound tactically.

I don't think short bursts of back peddling is unsound may even be necessary to get the body/firearm in order under certain conditions. I don't like a backpedaling drill because it puts this tool into the students tool box which might be the one they grab if the SHTF. But I also don't think the twisting and spinning as one is trying to draw is helpful either. So I would have to say BP in short bursts could provide some advantage without the risks associated with it IE stumbling and falling.
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Old July 6, 2010, 07:08 AM   #37
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To threegun, no offence taken. I also do not agree with Elmer Keith's criteria for "advance handgun shooting" nor his concept of handgunnery in general. I am speaking here of a handgun carried entirely for self defense and it is assumed to be carried concealed, although Keith did in fact carry his .44 N frame concealed and did show fast draw with his rig, which is still available from the original manufacturer.

To me, what you can do with a handgun at fifty yards, never mind 300 yards, is irrelevant to the requirements. In fact, being able to make a smooth draw, perhaps more important than a fast/quick draw, is basic, rather than advanced. Naturally it is in the interest of those who teach such things to call it an advanced skill that requires a trip to a professional firearms instructor before you can call yourself competant. I just don't believe that much is necessary. Of course I never went to a professional driver's school either.
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Old July 6, 2010, 07:24 AM   #38
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Naturally it is in the interest of those who teach such things to call it an advanced skill that requires a trip to a professional firearms instructor before you can call yourself competent. I just don't believe that much is necessary.
You really don't need a professional teacher. Problem is a pro will shave lots of time off your learning curve and correct anything they see wrong. With all the literature available today someone with the ability to think defensively can assemble a great set of tactics on their own.

Heck someone came up with it to begin with so why not us?
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Old July 6, 2010, 02:06 PM   #39
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Quote:
They say the first shot is the one that counts.
I believe it.
You might want to rethink that last statement of yours. I know lots of people who can get shots off quicker than I can. I also know that my target usually looks a lot better than theirs. Its the first "GOOD" shot that counts. 3 misses aint gonna make it in my world. It was one of the first things I had to teach to my new cop and deputy students who wanted to learn how to fast draw and I was still trying to get them to group on paper at 50'.

My teaching them to practice s-l-o-w m-o-t-i-o-n didn't go over well either but eventually their speed came with repetition as they developed the muscle memory. Everybody is in such a hurry........................okay, I admit, 40 years ago I was just as bad but I learned and if this thick headed old Bohunk can learn anybody can learn.
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Old July 6, 2010, 04:06 PM   #40
Glenn Dee
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Many methods of carry dont lend well to a quick draw.

Ankle holsters, some shoulder holsters, belly bands, deep IWB holsters, pocket carry.
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Old July 7, 2010, 06:31 AM   #41
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I certainly agree with your statement that some carry methods don't lend themselves to a fast draw. If you've ever seen Chic Gaylord's old book, you might be surprised at some of the hideout places he mentions. But he went into fast draw at great length in his book just the same.

Ultimately I suppose it is another case of a compromise between a fast draw set up and concealment, if that is part of the equation. There is also security for the handgun, so it doesn't get lost, and to some extent, protection of the handgun from the elements. In fact, you might say that just about every practical consideration in a holster beyond fast draw detracts from a fast draw in some way. A fast draw from a flapped holster is just about impossible, for instance. However, most of those other carries usually thought of as deep carry are generally thought of as being for a second gun or when concealment is the most important consideration.

There has been mention in obscure places of men who habitually carried a small pistol like an old-fashioned derringer in their left hand pocket where they could keep a hand on it when they felt the need. That's a good idea (and old fashioned) but I don't suppose that fits the context here. But some older carry methods that seemed to have gone out of fashion were, I'm given to understand, were quite fast. There doesn't seem to be much mention of shoulder holsters here but maybe I'm not reading the right threads. You can carry just about anything in a shoulder holster and provided you come to terms with what is basically a cross draw, they can be fast and moreover, they don't drag down your pants.
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Old July 7, 2010, 04:24 PM   #42
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Quote:

Another thought. Buy the right holster / rig for what you'll be doing. If this is for professional or CCW carry than you need to use what you'll wear. I use my DeSantis shoulder rig, horizontal draw when I have a jacket on or my Fobus for shirtsleeve days.

I was trying to highlight holster choice affecting speed but it was missed in the general din. I would put my DeSantis shoulder rig up against anyone. With the horizontal draw I have my Glock 35 out with the laser on in less than a second.

As for the SAA Colt, etc. I consider these to be hobby pieces not a practial weapon in this day and age.

Just my 2 cents, I apologize in advance for anyone that I get lock jawed.
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Old July 7, 2010, 04:49 PM   #43
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Your post reminds me of the guy who was visiting his therapist and says, " I don't know what you call it, but I know what I want to say, but, well I take longer to say it than most people in order to get people to understand what I'm getting at, even though I eventually get my point across so people understand what I'm saying".

The therapist looks at him and says, "wordiness".

No offense.

Don't know what you mean by Old Fashioned Draw, but practicing modern techniques until you're proficient works fine.
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Old July 8, 2010, 03:51 PM   #44
pythagorean
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The point is that most of the time we need to draw the gun instead of brandishing it and giving away our position and whatever plastic auto shooter we are wielding.

You are not a danger until the perp realizes he has been shot with a Colt SAA drawn faster from the hip than a usual modern concealed or open carry.

We are not in Hollywood or on CSI.

Period.
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Old July 8, 2010, 04:51 PM   #45
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Quick draw can turn into "fumble" draw real....well, quick.

Some folks really get hung up on having a "quick" draw, but "quick" is a relative term that hinges on individual ability, training, and dedication to consistent practice for sustainment.

IMO, most folks are better served by focusing on establishing and maintaining a smooth and deliberate draw that can be repeated EVERY time. With dedication to practice, the draw will naturally speed up, and for those that don't commit to practice, they will have a lesser chance of fumbling when they may need their gun most.

While "quick" is good, smooth with a lesser chance of fumbling is better imo.
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Old July 8, 2010, 06:25 PM   #46
Nnobby45
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While "quick" is good, smooth with a lesser chance of fumbling is better imo.
That's correct, I'd say, but a discussion that explores the subject of some special kind of draw that that eliminates the need to practice is kinda interesting, kind of amusing.

SMOOTH is what leads to QUICK no matter what kind of draw you use and that means practice. Some of us talk as though we have to sacrafice one for the other, but without the skill developed with SMOOTH practice, the possibility of fumbling becomes more likely.

Might be a good thing to practice, since when one's life is on the line and under a great deal of stress, NOBODY (ok, very few) is going to remember to slow down and be smooth. You've either got it by then, or you don't.

Trying to draw faster than one's ability is akin to shooting before one as acquired a sight picture.

Last edited by Nnobby45; July 8, 2010 at 06:36 PM.
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Old July 9, 2010, 12:18 PM   #47
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Well, there are issues with whether or not you even have time to form a sight picture, though I am aware of some fast and accurate shots in the past always claimed that's what they did, so who am I to argue the point. But all comments on fumbling are right on target, so to speak, and I believe I admitted to having done that. And for that reason, I find a thumb safety to be not exactly a hinderance but problematice because my thumb seems to be busy doing something else, like holding onto the pistol. I've never used any form of high thumb grip and I'm usually only thinking of a one handed draw, too, as well as shooting. Yes, it takes practice to shoot with only one hand.
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Old July 9, 2010, 01:04 PM   #48
pythagorean
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No sight picture. No time. The weapon is taken out of the holster and fired into the target. End of conflict. All that is needed is a gun that can be drawn and operated to send the first bullet home.

The DA is not as well balanced as the SA. The cocking with the thumb is part of the process in aligning the weapon. If it is a DA with SA option it is not balanced properly like a Colt SAA.

If you jerk the DA trigger you could miss by yards.




This Colt Frontier Six Shooter is easily the fastest fired handgun from the hip I have ever owned whether revolver DA or SA or semi auto.

Easily.

Last edited by pythagorean; July 9, 2010 at 01:10 PM.
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Old July 9, 2010, 05:10 PM   #49
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I understand the guys who shoot IDPA with Glock 34s and 1911s and XDMs and MP Pros... what I don't understand is why they carry Kel-Tecs and LCPs. Okay, I do understand it - for convenience - obviously.
Hey! I carry a 1911! (It's a tiny one though!)
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Old July 9, 2010, 06:00 PM   #50
Nnobby45
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Well, there are issues with whether or not you even have time to form a sight picture....... But all comments on fumbling are right on target, so to speak, and I believe I admitted to having done that. And for that reason, I find a thumb safety to be not exactly a hinderance but problematice because my thumb seems to be busy doing something else, like holding onto the pistol.
When it comes to sight picture you can't make a blanket statement as if all distances were the same. One to Three yds. is one thing, 10yds is another matter. Not having time for a sight picture is not having time to hit the target at most ranges---not saying it can't happen, just making the distinction.

Operating the thumb safety reliably is a matter of practicing your draw, or from the ready position. It's adapting to the gun rather than letting the gun adapt to you by changing weapons. It also takes plenty of practice before one reliably de-cocks the pistol every time.

I realize that not everyone has been Farnumized into learning different pistol systems---but that's too bad. Doesn't keep you from learning the one you prefer REAL well.

Last edited by Nnobby45; July 9, 2010 at 06:07 PM.
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