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Old June 27, 2010, 03:58 PM   #1
ibe4buckshot
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Taurus Judge .410 bore 2 1/2 in Federal 000 Buckshot

I finally broke down and got the Judge, I have wanted one since they came out . I have read many questions regarding the stopping power of the judge. The most common answer is that the .410 bore shot shells (loaded with birdshot) will be ineffective for self defense and the user should opt for .45 long colt. Very few people seem to realize that there are buckshot loads available in the .410 that provide more stopping power. Federal makes .410 000 shells specifically for the Judge. I was skeptical until I tested them. I found that the judge produced an effective pattern using Federal 2 1/2 inch 000 buckshot out to 20 yards. I kid you not, and the patterns were very uniform. It is obvious that the penetration of this buckshot out of a short barrel might be questionable, however I have no doubt that I could end a bad situation real quick with it . My point is, people need to do some research before they knock the judge down for poor stopping power. They also need to get on the frikin range and test this stuff out. REMEMBER SHOT PLACEMENT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN STOPPING POWER, WITH THE JUDGE I CAN HIT WITH GREAT Accuracy..........
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Last edited by ibe4buckshot; June 27, 2010 at 04:12 PM.
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Old June 27, 2010, 04:16 PM   #2
Landric
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I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the .410 Buckshot loads couldn't be used effectively for self-defense. The point I see the most (and it happens to be my opinion on the matter as well) is that there are much better choices for self-defense than .410 Buckshot. Can it be used? Sure, and it would probably be effective pretty regularly. The real question is, what advantage does it offer over more traditional and more proven self defense cartridges (like the .45 Colt)? How much does a 000 Buck pellet weigh? A .410 slug is about 90 grains, I suspect that one 000 buck pellet weighs significantly less. On the other hand, a .45 Colt is generally throwing a 255 grain bullet.

I think people are trying to turn the .410 into something its not. Generally that doesn't work out exceptionally well. I am sure a .410 revolver is an exceptionally fun gun to shoot, and owning a gun for that reason is perfectly legitimate. On the other hand, while it might work out as a self-defense gun, its not ideal for a number of reasons that include bulk, slow to reload, limited capacity, and questionable ballistics of the .410 bore. Shooting .45 Colt its no slouch, but on the other hand there are much more reasonable revolvers to be had if one wants to shoot .45 Colt.
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Old June 27, 2010, 04:29 PM   #3
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Yup, that Federal stuff is good. I posted test results over in this thread.

Federal Premium .410 buckshot/Bond Arms Derringer Water jug test.
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Old June 27, 2010, 04:30 PM   #4
ibe4buckshot
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Quote:
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the .410 Buckshot loads couldn't be used effectively for self-defense. The point I see the most (and it happens to be my opinion on the matter as well) is that there are much better choices for self-defense than .410 Buckshot. Can it be used? Sure, and it would probably be effective pretty regularly. The real question is, what advantage does it offer over more traditional and more proven self defense cartridges (like the .45 Colt)? How much does a 000 Buck pellet weigh? A .410 slug is about 90 grains, I suspect that one 000 buck pellet weighs significantly less. On the other hand, a .45 Colt is generally throwing a 255 grain bullet.

I think people are trying to turn the .410 into something its not. Generally that doesn't work out exceptionally well. I am sure a .410 revolver is an exceptionally fun gun to shoot, and owning a gun for that reason is perfectly legitimate. On the other hand, while it might work out as a self-defense gun, its not ideal for a number of reasons that include bulk, slow to reload, limited capacity, and questionable ballistics of the .410 bore. Shooting .45 Colt its no slouch, but on the other hand there are much more reasonable revolvers to be had if one wants to shoot .45 Colt.
Yes it is heavy, but IMO that's good as it reduces the perceivable recoil. Recoil of the judge is not bad at all and IMO very controllable. Follow up shots are fast for me and accurate. 000 buckshot measures .36" (9.1 mm) and there are 4 of those in a shot shell. If every one of those is likely able to penetrate vital organs then the chance of hitting a vital organ is 4 times that of just a single bullet. The buckshot will not over penetrate and go into the other room and kill somebody. It is by no means good for conceal carry. I'ts and in the car or in the house gun. Take note I'm a huge fan of standard handguns that fire a single projectile. My favorite being a Glock 32 .357 sig, but if something goes bump in the night, I'll take the judge every time.

You do make valid point though.
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Old June 27, 2010, 08:29 PM   #5
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If you're happy with the Judge, good. Have fun with it.

For me I don't see a purpose for it other then a fun gun. I can't CC it, for HD I have a 12 ga SxS and 1911 handy. Really don't see what niche it would fill. For the Range I use a SRH .44 MAG.
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Old June 27, 2010, 09:28 PM   #6
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The Judge has one great use that I think many people overlook: it makes a great snake gun.

When you live in a swamp like I do, snakes are a very big concern. My Grandfather owns well over 500 acres of land that is over 90% swamp, and seeing poisonous snakes is a pretty regular thing. He carries his Judge with him whenever he is out on his land. It is much more handy than most of the small derringer style snake guns.

As for a self defense gun, I just don't really see it. For me at least, there are too many better, more proven options out there.
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Old June 27, 2010, 09:46 PM   #7
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My friend bought a Judge with the 3" chamber and I would say yes the 000 buckshot did hit the paper at 20 yards and I also think it would end a bad guys day but, I don't think that the Judge is any more then a "fun" gun to shoot and nothing more. Accurate? Not really! We have shot a few hundred a piece threw it and yes I shot Federal 000 Buckshot as well as Winchester's Supreme Elite PDX1 personal defense loads. The 000 Buckshot had a noticeably bigger recoil over the .45 Colt loads and the PDX1. The Judge with .45 Colt ammo loaded up in it is ok accurate at beast and horrible at worst. I would be much more comfortable with a good HP 9 mm or .40 round in a gun that can hit what I point it at then a "Scatter Handgun".

Last edited by Xfire68; June 28, 2010 at 10:54 AM.
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Old June 27, 2010, 09:52 PM   #8
Sheikyourbootie
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+1 to what auto said on the snake gun.

This is also what the .410 was designed for.


Not sure I'd use even the 000 buck in .410 for SD. And I LOVE shooting the .410 It's what I grew up shooting (along with a 22lr) The slug would be more effective, but there are better SD rounds in 45 Colt.
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Old June 28, 2010, 02:56 PM   #9
ibe4buckshot
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Quote:
As for a self defense gun, I just don't really see it.
As I stated above, with a standard handgun each trigger pull sends one projectile. For the bullet to be effective, it NEEDS to hit a vital organ. Don't get me wrong, with the proper training and practice you can become very effective with a single projectile handgun (As I have=Glock 32). With the Judge (Loaded with Federal Premium 000 buckshot) each trigger pull sends FOUR projectiles downrange, thus the chance of hitting a vital organ is FOUR times that than if you where to use a standard handgun. This is what makes the judge effective for SD. I'm not trying to get people to use the judge, I'm trying to get people to quit stating false facts such as the the Judge is ineffective for SD.
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Old June 28, 2010, 03:29 PM   #10
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I'm trying to get people to quit stating false facts such as the the Judge is ineffective for SD
You'll have to get Al Gore to shut off the internet.

I know the feeling, but opinions are like...well...you know, everyones got one, and the internet is like the big sewer pipe that collects everything. So enjoy your Judge and don't worry about what other people think.
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Old June 28, 2010, 03:37 PM   #11
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Another one of those pesky Internet opinions -

Judge != effective SD
Judge = effective marketing campaign

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Old June 28, 2010, 05:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
REMEMBER SHOT PLACEMENT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN STOPPING POWER, WITH THE JUDGE I CAN HIT WITH GREAT Accuracy..........
Curious, but how many of your four 70gr. pellets (000 buck) can you put on a 6" target at 20 yards, or even 10 yards for that matter?

Jim
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Old June 28, 2010, 05:49 PM   #13
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It's pretty accurate with the Buckshot. I was able to get 19 of the 20 pellets to hit the target at 50 feet shooting Federal's 000 Buckshot. With factory "Cowboy" loads it was not accurate at the same distance. The Winchester 225g Super-X Silver tip was a bit better at 50' but still not what I would call accurate. So......... the Buckshot was the most accurate at this distance with the loads we shot at a indoor range. The Judge at close range with pretty much anything you put in it would do the job but I would not want to have it as my only option if the distances got a bit longer.
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Old June 28, 2010, 05:55 PM   #14
laytonj1
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Quote:
I was able to get 19 of the 20 pellets to hit the target at 50 feet shooting Federal's 000 Buckshot
How big was the target?

Jim
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Old June 28, 2010, 06:08 PM   #15
Xfire68
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24" X 45" Silhouette. In other words LARGE!
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Old June 28, 2010, 06:20 PM   #16
Auto426
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As I stated above, with a standard handgun each trigger pull sends one projectile. For the bullet to be effective, it NEEDS to hit a vital organ. Don't get me wrong, with the proper training and practice you can become very effective with a single projectile handgun (As I have=Glock 32). With the Judge (Loaded with Federal Premium 000 buckshot) each trigger pull sends FOUR projectiles downrange, thus the chance of hitting a vital organ is FOUR times that than if you where to use a standard handgun. This is what makes the judge effective for SD. I'm not trying to get people to use the judge, I'm trying to get people to quit stating false facts such as the the Judge is ineffective for SD.
Each trigger pull may send four projectiles down range, but they don't have anywhere near the accuracy that a normal, single projectile handgun has. Your chance of hitting the vitals is not four times greater, as you have very little control over where they are going to hit. Those four small projectiles themselves also aren't nearly as effective as a single, much heavier and larger hollow point.

As I said in my earlier post, the Judge is not something I would use for SD. That does not mean that it won't kill a man or be effective in a self defense situation. I'm also not trying to pass off my personal opinion as fact. I'm just simply stating that when it comes to SD, for me, there are better and more proven options.
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Old June 28, 2010, 06:58 PM   #17
ibe4buckshot
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Curious, but how many of your four 70gr. pellets (000 buck) can you put on a 6" target at 20 yards, or even 10 yards for that matter?
On a 2 ft by 2 ft target at both 10 and 20 yards every pellet landed on target, at 10 yards I got about a 3 inch pattern and about a 6 inch pattern at 20... If you don't believe me then shoot the dang thing using the PROPER BUCKSHOT.

Quote:
Each trigger pull may send four projectiles down range, but they don't have anywhere near the accuracy that a normal, single projectile handgun has.
I respect your opinion, yet again I must state that the judge when shooting buckshot Is more than accurate enough for SD. I WILL SAY THIS ONE MORE DANG TIME! SHOOT IT BEFORE YOU OFFER YOUR OPINION!!! I used to be a skeptic of the judge, until I shot one...
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Old June 28, 2010, 07:09 PM   #18
ibe4buckshot
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I think this thread is going into useless debate. The moral of this story is, shoot what you like (I happen to prefer the judge), and do not state false info about something you have never shot.

You guys stated some good points on here. You guys are great!
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Old June 28, 2010, 07:27 PM   #19
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Curious, but how many of your four 70gr. pellets (000 buck) can you put on a 6" target at 20 yards, or even 10 yards for that matter?
If I shoot someone at 20 yards, I'm going to jail. What the Judge, and the Federal OOO buckshot, is for is for the guy that is at most 5-10 yards away from you. It does that well. My Bond Arms Derringer keeps all the shots on a pizza box at 5 yards. A Judge would probably do better.

Shooting in the real world is nowhere close to perfect.

Quote:
Each trigger pull may send four projectiles down range, but they don't have anywhere near the accuracy that a normal, single projectile handgun has.
We're not Bullseye shooting. You're not trying to shoot his left nut. You're just aiming for center mass.

Quote:
Your chance of hitting the vitals is not four times greater, as you have very little control over where they are going to hit. Those four small projectiles themselves also aren't nearly as effective as a single, much heavier and larger hollow point.
If you're shooting someone in SD you already have very little control over where they are hitting. The best you're hoping for it just hitting the BG. Anything else is gravy. It all depends on where they hit. If that single, large hollowpoint doesn't hit anything important, it doesn't really matter. With the buckshot you have a much greater chance of hitting something important when you do hit them. That's the whole point of buskshot. If 3 pellets cause non-fatal wounds and the 4th goes through their heart, then the shot has been effective.
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Old June 28, 2010, 07:40 PM   #20
ibe4buckshot
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we're not bullseye shooting. You're not trying to shoot his left nut. You're just aiming for center mass.
thank you!!! :d:d:d
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Old June 28, 2010, 08:27 PM   #21
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Looks like Winchester may have come up with a real winner for the Judge. It may even make a winner, not an advertising gimmick out of the Judge. I almost bought one until I started reading all the negative reports on accuracy. After seeing this vid, it's back on my "must have" list.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/Video.aspx?vid=2123
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Old June 28, 2010, 08:37 PM   #22
ibe4buckshot
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Yeah, that new PDX1 is sweet! I'll have to add some of that to my ammo stockpile. Of course I still love the Federal Premium .410 handgun loads, talk about great patterns...
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Old June 28, 2010, 09:46 PM   #23
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If I shoot someone at 20 yards, I'm going to jail. What the Judge, and the Federal OOO buckshot, is for is for the guy that is at most 5-10 yards away from you.
In my house, the greatest distance I will ever have to shoot inside is 11 yards, from one side of the family room/kitchen to the other. Why debate the accuracy of any gun at a range in excess of its' intended practicality ?

In my vehicle, I might stuff my 3"X3" Judge with homerolled 3" loads of plated lead BB, which amounts to around 32 pellets, which at 3 yards is a load to be reckoned with.

Personally,I have a fear of a round or ball striking the unintended target down the hall or across the gas station lot, and most of us likely share that concern.

But the contention that The Judge is not perfect for some purpose is the same
silly arguement that is used for most other firearms at one time or another.

For sure, hitting the target with one or more projectiles of a given size at a given velocity beats the hell out of a miss with anything else.

I guess I will keep buying guns until I find the perfect one.
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Old June 28, 2010, 09:57 PM   #24
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By the way, I meant to mention the folks at Paraklese have developed some potent loads for the Judge. I remember a few months ago some feedback was less than positve regarding extraction, but 0000 Buck at 1200 fps from a short barrel should bark pretty strongly.

Check it out here:

http://www.paraklesetechnologies.com...cts.asp?cat=13
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Old June 28, 2010, 11:26 PM   #25
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If I shoot someone at 20 yards, I'm going to jail.
There's a 63 foot (21 yards) hallway that seperates the master bedroom from the back bedrooms in my house. So 20+ yards is realistic.
That's why I asked about the patterns at 20 yards but can't seem to get a straight answer. Hitting a pizza box at 5 yards or a 2 foot by 4 foot target at 20 yards doesn't tell me anything.

I have some 357 magnum loads with two 000 buckshot pellets. At 25 yards they hit about 12" apart from each other.

And if someone is shooting at you from 20 yards away are you telling me you won't shoot back cause you might get in trouble?

Quote:
What the Judge, and the Federal OOO buckshot, is for is for the guy that is at most 5-10 yards away from you.
So what do you do if he's standing further back... ask him to wait while you load some 45 Colt cartridges?

Jim

Edit:
Quote:
about a 6 inch pattern at 20... If you don't believe me then shoot the dang thing using the PROPER BUCKSHOT.
Lighten up Francis... so you're telling me all four 000 pellets hit within 6" at 20 yards? Each shot?
And I'd love to shoot one but have yet to see anybody with one at the range and I don't want to buy one only to find out it sucks, that's why I asked the questions from those of you who already own one.

Last edited by laytonj1; June 29, 2010 at 01:03 AM. Reason: more comments
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