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Old June 15, 2010, 08:28 AM   #1
Mike Irwin
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US role in arming Mexico's drug cartels is coming to light...

and, as we all suspected, it's NOT what Felipe Calderon, Barak Obama, or Eric Holder is claiming.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2581-St-Lo...the-government

That's a link to a very interesting article (with accompanying articles) that shows exactly how the "95 to 100% of all guns in cartel hands come from the United States" was derived.

And as all of us suspected, those figures are GROSSLY inflated and, surprise surprise, horrifically misrepresented.

What's really amazing about all of this is that the latest information comes not from our supporters in the US, but from articles by a Mexican newspaper.

It makes for interesting reading, and it makes for some SERIOUS ammunition in dealing with people who want to reimpose the "assault weapons ban" as a means of helping the poor defenseless (incompetent?) Mexican government deal with its crime problems.
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Old June 15, 2010, 08:34 AM   #2
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Great read Mike. It also again shows the misuse of stats by the Brady Campaign and their attempt to use any information, real or not, to help acheive their goals.
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Old June 15, 2010, 09:05 AM   #3
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Thanks Mike.
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Old June 15, 2010, 10:20 AM   #4
maestro pistolero
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I don't have the link, but did anyone see where 10 Mexican Federal agents were corralled and murdered this week by cartel hit-men? How's that gun control working for you, Calderon? If that was in the US, it would be a game changer. In Mexico, no-one is surprised.

Why would anyone pretend that the cartels, who are by definition in the contraband business, have the slightest difficulty getting AK 47s, etc. from the same Middle-Eastern countries that supply their heroin?

And why, when we can't begin to stem the northern flow of God-knows-who, and God-knows-what, do we think we have the luxury to spend one minute worrying about the flow of contraband OUT of our country?
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Old June 15, 2010, 11:04 AM   #5
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When you tell the truth..but not the whole truth...

What you are saying may be nothing but the truth, but it only goes as far as you want it to.

OF COURSE many weapons recovered in Mexico were made in the USA! That's a no brainer, as they say. Mexico basically has no domestic firearms industry. I'm not even sure if their design of military rifle is made there or not, today.

So, with a small amount of historical exceptions the overwhelming majority of weapons in private (and likely also govt) hands in Mexico came from somewhere else.

So when they are crying "these guns come from USA!", they are telling the truth. But only part of the the truth. Just as when they say the violence is due to American's desire for drugs. Same thing. Part of the truth, the part that favors their agenda. But not the whole truth, not even close.

Over time, the US has given thousands of military arms to Mexico, as aid. Once they are in the hands of the Mexican government, it is a short step to being in the hands of the drug cartels. Guns stolen in the US are funneled into Mexico, because there is a market for them.

The small number of civilian guns that are actually legally bought in the US and sent to Mexico by the buyers is like the ice that fell on the deck of the Titanic, compared to the rest of the iceberg!

Personally, I see the issue as a stalking horse for our administration. BY getting the Mexican's to bring up gun control they get to avoid some of the political fallout they would have to face if they brought it up, and still have gun control as an issue.
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Old June 15, 2010, 11:09 AM   #6
Mike Irwin
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But those guns aren't, as has been claimed, coming from the hundreds of gunshops along the Mexico-US border.

It's been claimed (I think Holder was the one who said this) that those gunshops are responsible for virtually all of the illegal guns in Mexico.

We all know that's a crock of crap.
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Old June 15, 2010, 12:15 PM   #7
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Here's a very good article from last year explaining where (and how) some of those goofy statistics originated. To quote Jeunesse and Lott, the points of origin for Mexican crime guns are:

Quote:
- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

– Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

– Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

– The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.
Attorney General Holder claimed that 90% of crime guns in Mexico came from the US. So, where does that figure come from? It comes from traces the BATFE does on guns which are recovered and submitted for investigation. The Mexican government isn't going to bother sending back guns that obviously originated elsewhere, or on which the serial numbers have been defaced. They only do so if it appears that the gun originated in America.

So, an American gun gets sent back, and the trace reveals that it came from the United States. The statistic in question proves only that 90% of American guns come from America. As for the other 10%, well…I'm scratching my head, too. The salient fact is that this statistic does not in any way indicate what percentage of all weapons being used in Mexico actually come from America, nor how they got there.

There's no point in submitting an Israeli Galil, a Chinese AK-47 or a Vektor carbine from South Africa, but find an old 5-shot S&W Chief's Special (which has probably passed through innumerable owners at that point) on the body of a drug dealer, and that's proof that American gun dealers are involved in a sinister plot to fuel open warfare in Mexico.

I spoke with a BATFE agent last year, and his estimate was that the actual number was closer to 8%, a number which mostly comprises hunting-style rifles and small handguns. Few of the guns traced were actually used in violent crimes.
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Old June 15, 2010, 12:59 PM   #8
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I go to Mexico every winter. When you drive around, you have to go through military checkpoints on the North-South roads, and I've noticed that those soldiers are all carrying CETMEs. That's the only rifle I've seen any soldier carrying, yet every time I read about the Mexican army they are supposedly using the M16.
Maybe to a reporter, all rifles are M16's?
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Old June 15, 2010, 01:24 PM   #9
Bartholomew Roberts
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So you are telling me that people who operate a vast, international logistics network that moves tons of illegal contraband worldwide on a daily basis aren't arming themselves by sneaking across the border to buy guns one or two at a time from mom & pop shops in America?

: | <--- My shocked face.
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Old June 15, 2010, 01:39 PM   #10
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I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I'll say it: what's really coming from the United States is demand for narcotics.

That's the crux of the matter.
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Old June 15, 2010, 02:14 PM   #11
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Somewhat unrelated, except for the source of skewed statistics: According to the local news over the last two days, the Brady Commission has disclosed that Georgia, my resident state, is the main source of firearms being trafficked "up north" for illegal transfer to criminals residing in states with more restrictive gun statutes. Common phrases in the reports included what the ATF supposedly refered to as " the iron pipeline " ( the interstate highway leading northerly ), and that legitimate gun dealers should know "something's up" when someone comes in to buy 20-30 guns at one time.
This makes me wonder what they're trying to pull this time.
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Old June 15, 2010, 02:28 PM   #12
Mike Irwin
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It's quite clear what they're trying to pull, what they pulled in Virginia...

Lock down purchases to one handgun a month.
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Old June 27, 2010, 09:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
So you are telling me that people who operate a vast, international logistics network that moves tons of illegal contraband worldwide on a daily basis aren't arming themselves by sneaking across the border to buy guns one or two at a time from mom & pop shops in America?

: | <--- My shocked face.
I like.
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Old June 27, 2010, 09:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
what's really coming from the United States is demand for narcotics.
Nailed it.
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Old June 27, 2010, 10:00 PM   #15
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I still think...build a fence and see what problems each side of the fence develops....the surplus weaponry, drugs, refugees, etc.
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Old June 27, 2010, 10:07 PM   #16
Tom Servo
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Quote:
Georgia, my resident state, is the main source of firearms being trafficked "up north" for illegal transfer to criminals residing in states with more restrictive gun statutes. Common phrases in the reports included what the ATF supposedly refered to as " the iron pipeline " ( the interstate highway leading northerly ), and that legitimate gun dealers should know "something's up" when someone comes in to buy 20-30 guns at one time.
Any legitimate dealer I know wouldn't sell someone 20-30 guns at one time unless they knew the person. An estate sale? Perhaps. A random guy off the street? Heck, no.

It's in the dealer's best interest to pull the plug if something seems to be amiss. Even if his ethics don't interfere, the possibility of business closure and/or negative publicity will.

As far as the "iron pipeline" goes, that's one slow and inefficient conduit. According to the ATF, the average time-to-crime for guns New York authorities traced to Georgia is two to three years. These aren't guns being bought in permissive states for resale in restrictive states--these are guns being stolen in property crimes and gradually being passed from one set of guilty hands to the next until they end up in New York.
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Old June 29, 2010, 09:55 PM   #17
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Bloomberg is reporting on US banks involved with the Mexican drug cartels, laundering their money. Scroll about 1/3 way down the page to watch the vids and read the text.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...-u-s-deal.html

This particular video mentions Clinton's reference to the US supplying guns to Mexico. Could we be seeing a connection between banks and gun smuggling like 'Iran-Contra' and BCCI?

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/61169668/
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