The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old June 9, 2010, 04:48 PM   #1
Super-Dave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 795
Why did homeland security buy millions of 135 grain .40?

Why did homeland security buy millions of 135 grain .40?

The bullet in question is the 135 grain ranger T.

135 grains at 1200 fps.


Why even have .40?

You can get the same results with 125 grain 9mm at 1250 fps


They could have saved millions by just using 9mm handguns and rounds.
__________________
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.

George Orwell
Super-Dave is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 04:49 PM   #2
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 11,396
Good question - but who said they knew what they were doing ??
BigJimP is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 04:59 PM   #3
Daryl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 11, 2008
Posts: 2,350
Because US Border Patrol officers are issued handguns chambered in .40 S&W. In all likelihood, ICE, DEA, and other federal agencies are issued .40 S&W's as well.

Would they save enough to change out all the barrels, and then re-qualify their officers? Probably not.

They don't want something "almost as good", when it comes right down to it.

Daryl
Daryl is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 05:02 PM   #4
Super-Dave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 795
why the 135 at such a low velocity?

They would have been better of just staying with the 9mm guns.
__________________
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.

George Orwell
Super-Dave is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 05:03 PM   #5
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,737
Because law enforcement loves the 40? After the FBI Miami shootout, the 40 was the child of the 10 mm.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 05:20 PM   #6
Huntress
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 2, 2010
Location: West Coast
Posts: 11
The 40sw is a good round for many in the LE community... Once apon a time, the great 10mm was considered for FBI carry but people kept complaining about the recoil... I myself love my Glock 20- 10mm and in fact prefer it over my model 21- 45 auto.
Huntress is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 06:37 PM   #7
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 11,396
Remember Homeland Security is made up of 7 major law enforcement divisions .....

http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/structure/editorial_0644.shtm

so while they purchased a lot of .40S&W / they would have also purchased a lot of 9mm ....etc as well...
BigJimP is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 06:39 PM   #8
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,813
SuoerDave, I would imagine that is what met their requirements for duty ammo. In general, US agencies at the state, local, and federal levels do not use 9mm handguns. A few still do, but not many. Most have moved away from George Luger's cartridge. Even if you could convince Homeland Security of the idea of going back to a cartridge they have already decided against, the savings in ammunition costs would be eaten away by the costs involved with rearming everyone.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 07:04 PM   #9
Cosmik de Bris
Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2008
Posts: 65
Quote:
Why did homeland security buy millions of 135 grain .40?

The bullet in question is the 135 grain ranger T.

135 grains at 1200 fps.

Why even have .40?

You can get the same results with 125 grain 9mm at 1250 fps
Because it is dangerous to fire 9mm rounds in a 40.
Cosmik de Bris is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 07:19 PM   #10
zombieslayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,183
Imo, 135gr 40 must be gaining popularity, I see it a lot lately. Just bought some federal 135's from walmart.
__________________
"An angry prophet, denouncing the hypocrisies of our time"
zombieslayer is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 07:29 PM   #11
clemsonbloz
Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2010
Posts: 83
low recoil..
clemsonbloz is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 07:43 PM   #12
orionengnr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 4,999
Low recoil is generally achieved at the expense of velocity/power.

The .40 was originally a "low-recoil" 10mm.

Now we have "low-recoil" .40s.

At a certain point, you are better off with a "real" 9mm.

Last edited by orionengnr; June 9, 2010 at 07:49 PM.
orionengnr is online now  
Old June 9, 2010, 07:46 PM   #13
napg19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 354
Now I'm curious about the recoil. I've shot .357, 44 mag. 9mm and .45acp of various bullet weights through time. Where does the .40 fit in. I hear of many people and LE's using them. Is the recoil a snap like a 9mm or a push like a .45acp? This would be used as CCW.
napg19 is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 07:53 PM   #14
SwampYankee
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: November 1, 2008
Location: I can be found on a number of other forums.
Posts: 1,333
Its a snap, a pretty snappy-snap at that! I've thrown my lot in with .40 S&W but if I had to do it over again, I'd go with .45 ACP.
SwampYankee is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 08:01 PM   #15
napg19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 354
Thanks, appreciate that. I think I'll stick with my SP101 for now. Fund's are drying up.
napg19 is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 08:03 PM   #16
TXGunNut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: If you have to ask...
Posts: 2,851
There's a training program going on around here involving urban youths and firearms instruction. The funding is coming from a federal agency. I don't know if these two situations are related but if I were going to teach a youngster to shoot a .40 this ammo would seem ideal.
__________________
Life Member NRA, TSRA
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove
My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.
TXGunNut is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 08:37 PM   #17
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 2,433
Some information...

http://www.allbusiness.com/crime-law...8915586-1.html

The 135 have also been improved on.

Why this particular weight bullet and what it's velocity is I don't know. Less recoil and muzzle flash could be a part of it but that's just speculation.

A variety of makers have ammo in this weight available with different bullets. Velocities have a range from Federal Hydra-Shok at 1190 fps to Double Taps 1375 fps. You can see some of them here...

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Brow...g=653***691***

The reason the feds and many leos switched to the 40S&W in the 1990s was that it is a more powerful round than the 9mm and in guns with the same overall dimensions and has a larger magazine capacity than the 45acp. The round has proven to be a useful and versatile one. Different agencies use different weight bullets and loads.

tipoc
tipoc is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 08:50 PM   #18
Sgt 45
Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Posts: 34
Why did homeland security buy millions of 135 grain .40?

Because Big Sis was contemplating suicide and she was worried she might miss?

As for the .40 vs .45, I just got back from the range and firing my HK USP compact .40 and HK .45 compact. The .45 had a much nicer recoil. The .40 does have a snap to it and at times it really bothers my wrists. I can't remember why I went to a .40 from the 1911, maybe 'cause it was something different. Well I'm back to the .45 now. The .45 compact is really a great CCW gun for me.
Sgt 45 is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 10:51 PM   #19
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 1,701
I'm going to assume that it was just another corrupt government agency spending millions of tax dollars on the most foolish thing that they could think of.
briandg is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 11:46 PM   #20
SVO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2009
Location: Texas Gulf Coast
Posts: 687
Briandg, what verifiable evidence do you have that the DHS is a corrupt government organization? While I have my differences with Homeland Security, I fail to see them as a corrupt government agency. I also fail to see that buying ammo for use by those down in the trenches is a foolish move.
SVO is offline  
Old June 9, 2010, 11:48 PM   #21
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 2,433
You can see some discussion of it here...

http://www.gunreports.com/news/ammo/...CE_1460-1.html

You may also notice that the "news" is about a year old.

tipoc
tipoc is offline  
Old June 10, 2010, 01:32 AM   #22
jgcoastie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 2,112
Quote:
Originally Posted by briandg
I'm going to assume that it was just another corrupt government agency spending millions of tax dollars on the most foolish thing that they could think of.
Umm... DHS has several law enforcement agencies that issue service weapons chambered in .40 S&W.

Coast Guard (41,800 personnel)
Customs & Border Protection (56,500 personnel)
Immigration & Customs Enforcement (15,000 personnel)
Federal Protective Service (2100 personnel)
Secret Service (4,400 personnel)

Just a quick tally of the numbers totals: 119,800 personnel.

Considering that we must qualify on the practical (50rds) pistol course every six months...

119,800 x 100 = 11,980,000 rounds used annually in training and qualification. Roughly.

And our biggest complaint with weapons training and qualification is that we don't get to shoot as much as we need to in order to remain proficient. So those of us who actually want to go the extra mile train on our own time and our own dime.

Still think it's just another corrupt government agency foolishly spending taxpayer dollars? When you don't know what to say; it is best to remain silent.

Put away the tinfoil hat guy.
__________________
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.
jgcoastie is offline  
Old June 10, 2010, 01:48 AM   #23
cannonfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2010
Location: Georgia
Posts: 497
Quote:
Put away the tinfoil hat guy.
Sorry I just watched the movie Signs, and I keep thinking of when they were all wearing the tinfoil hats so the aliens couldn't read their minds! ahah! oh I get it now I think... haha

I'm going to assume that they bought so many rounds because they chose to go with a 40 after extensive testing and now they need lots and lots of ammo to train, qualify, and use for practice? Sarcastic, but just a guess.
__________________
Segui il tuo corso e lascia dir le genti - Dante

Blaming guns for crime is like blaming the planes for 9/11
cannonfire is offline  
Old June 10, 2010, 01:53 AM   #24
jgcoastie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 2,112
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannonfire
I'm going to assume that they bought so many rounds because they chose to go with a 40 after extensive testing and now they need lots and lots of ammo to train, qualify, and use for practice? Sarcastic, but just a guess.
I can't speak for the other agencies, but the Coast Guard switched from the Beretta M9 (9mm) to the SigSauer P229DAK (.40 S&W) back in early 2006. That was after a 3 million round 'torture test' of sorts...

My guess is that briandg stumbled on a "story" of a routine bulk purchase... But that's pure speculation.

Just had a thought...

Why did DoD just purchase millions of rounds of 5.56x45mm?!?!?! They must be corrupt!!!


You might scoff at the idea of me relating the two, but I see no difference between the two 'headlines'...
__________________
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.
jgcoastie is offline  
Old June 10, 2010, 02:31 AM   #25
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,403
green ammo?

Hey, is that training ammo, or duty ammo?

My fed agency has a directive to use "green" ammo for training, which means no lead, which means a lighter .40 (or any other cal) slug when compared to "real" lead slugs.

Conventional lead ammo is still authorized for duty carry, and is typically a 180 gr JHP when in .40 cal.
bamaranger is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14775 seconds with 7 queries