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Old June 3, 2010, 11:02 AM   #1
Chrz
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Help over firearm possession

Be prepared for a wall of text

Ok, so I recently purchased a Ruger pistol from one of my co-workers. We signed a contract stating I purchased the firearm from him. The contract lists the day, time, make, model, serial number, both our names and our signatures and the price paid for it. Well, a few days ago he comes up to me and tells me the FFL he bought it from needs the firearm back. I asked for a reason on why they would need it, and received several ambiguous answers including: "There's a problem with the numbers on file", "something came back on it" (not sure what he means there), and "a previous owner has a misdemeanor on file" (don't think that would effect the current owner).

I asked my co-worker to get the dealer to contact me, and he claims the dealer refuses to speak to me because of his bad temper and doesn't wish to get into an argument. My co-worker also refused to give me the dealers contact information.

My co-worker claims he doesn't want the firearm due to it's lack of safeties and his having a 3 year old daughter (the whole reason I purchased it from him), and his only concern is that the firearm is registered under his name since his is the one who purchased it from the FFL.

Now, I don't want to release this firearm to anyone, for any reason, as I feel like I'm being lied to on several accounts. I also do not wish to give up the firearm as it's a solid piece of equipment.

And now I'm kinda stuck, since every time I go into work, he comes up to me with something else and how he's tired of this and just wants to be done with it, but still refuses to let me speak with the dealer.

Can anyone offer any help?

~Greg
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Old June 3, 2010, 11:09 AM   #2
Glenn E. Meyer
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If you have a lawyer, give his or her number to said worker. Also, tell him to put the money he will return to you in escrow while you call the BATFE and report that you think he and the FFL are engaging in some illegality. Tell him, you will also contact the local police as you are suspicious of him and where he got the gun.

Then see what he does. I'd put it on record as if the gun is bad, you don't it cycling back to you and have to talk to law.
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Old June 3, 2010, 11:13 AM   #3
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Might be tougher now (since your co-worker may be trying to renig on the deal) but I would suggest going to an FFL and actually having the registration transfered to you. Then no one can lay any claims to your gun, it's registered to you now. The $30 bucks or so a dealer will charge is small insurance in my eyes (as a seller I would insist on this, I wouldn't want anyone else running around with a gun registered to me, anyone else feel different???). Not sure if you would need your co-worker to complete the transfer though, my guess is yes. Other than that, I think I would at least insist on a call directly from the dealer verifying the request.

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Last edited by pgdion; June 3, 2010 at 11:52 AM.
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Old June 3, 2010, 11:17 AM   #4
Glenn E. Meyer
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Depends on the state if guns are registered. The OP doesn't state if he is from a state that requires private sales to go through an FFL.
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Old June 3, 2010, 11:28 AM   #5
Chrz
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We are in Texas, and as far as I'm aware, it does not require an FFL to transfer
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Old June 3, 2010, 11:35 AM   #6
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Quote:
Now, I don't want to release this firearm to anyone, for any reason, as I feel like I'm being lied to on several accounts.
Totally agree and make sure that all your transactions to date, are lawful. You need to smoke him out as there is something very fishy about his conduct. I don't think that there is a dealer involved what so ever. Just tell him you are going to contact the ATF and then see what he comes up with. However, you and he may not like the final results. Personally, I think he got a better offer after he sold it to you. He needs to get straight with you. For now, it's your gun and you have control of the ball. ...


Be Safe !!!
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Old June 3, 2010, 11:42 AM   #7
Chrz
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Quote:
You need to smoke him out as there is something very fishy about his conduct. I don't think that there is a dealer involved what so ever.
I agree with you 100%. I've told him I'm not going to give the gun to anyone till the dealer contacts me and presents me with a government form to take the firearm.

As far as transactions to date, this is the only purchase i've made from an unlicensed individual, and it is lawful.

Also, I have a friend who works for the ATF and i've been talking to her about it a little, she agrees there is something fishy going on and told me to not release it as if the government, or a local PD, needed it..they would come forth the take it themselves. And as far as I'm aware, this has not happened. And if it does, I will be cooperative with the law.
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Old June 3, 2010, 11:47 AM   #8
Scattergun Bob
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Chrz

I do not know what state you live in, so my opinion is generic in terms of the law.

Provided that you live in a state where it is legal to engage in private party sales without the need to involve a FFL in such transactions you have nothing to fear.

If you and the seller have entered into a contract in good faith, documented the sale and all parts of the contract have been met, then sit back and DO NOTHING, with the exception of a short office visit to any local legal aid group in your area (for an opinion). Your legitimate bill of sale is in most states a powerful tool of innocence.

If the gun is needed by law enforcement, trust me, they will contact you. If the FFL is dirty, BATF will contact you. If your co-worker is dirty, that's his problem.

My dealing with this type of issue where a firearm MIGHT be needed for evidence, from the LE side, were to contact the new owner, explain the need for the weapon to be placed in evidence, issue a receipt for the piece, and move on down the road. None of the horror stories that fill this forum ever occured on my watch.

You may at some time need legal services to recover your property or money if things go south and the weapons is dirty.

Moral of this story and many others, Document what you do, when you do it, and whom you do it with, any time you buy or sell firearms.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old June 3, 2010, 11:52 AM   #9
Sefner
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I like Glenn's idea of taking over the situation. Tell your co-working that you will contact the BATFE yourself about the weapon if there is an issue. If he is reluctant, tell him it's because "well since the firearm is legally mine it's better if I take care of the whole thing, right?". This puts you in control, which is where you want to be. Make him react to you.
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:01 PM   #10
Chrz
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I don't really want this to turn into a legal battle, but I will if I have to.

I do have documentation of our transaction, with all the essentials for a legal trade.

I wonder if we could sticky a thread on here for private, unlicensed transfers providing them with a solid transfer agreement.

Mine consisted of

"This is a transfer agreement for a ______ (make) _____model _____caliber, with the serial number of ______.

This transfer is being made on the date of __/__/____.

The agreed upon price of the transfer is $____.__ USD.

Both parties agree they are in good legal standing, and have the legal right and ability to purchase and own Firearms

Buyers name ___________________________ Date __/__/____
Sellers name ___________________________ Date __/__/____



Buyers Signature ____________________________
Sellers Signature ____________________________

"


That was not the exact format of it, but that's the gist of it.
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:24 PM   #11
TX15
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Texas has no registration, your "transfer" is a "bill of sale" if you wanted one for your records.. The only thing that he was "required" to do is to make you prove Texas residency, a TX DL. I prefer to deal with TX CHL holders as I can also do the other thing required ... "reasonably assume" there is no issue in their owning a firearm.
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:24 PM   #12
NavyLT
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I would do what others have suggested. Tell your co-worker that you are going to notify the BATFE of the serial number of the gun, that you are the current owner of the gun, and whom you got it from. That way law enforcement is free to pursue whatever legal issues there are with the gun. Also tell your co-worker that if he continues to hassle you about it, you will take action for harrasment against him or her.

There is no firearm registration in Texas, btw. All the 4473 form at an FFL does is to prove that the person RECEIVING the gun is legal to possess the gun. It has nothing to do with anything else. LEO can inspect the forms to determine where a specific serial number gun went, but the form 4473 has nothing to do with the background of the gun or the seller of the gun, only that the recipient is legal to possess firearms.

Your co-worker is blowing a whole lot of smoke for some reason.
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:30 PM   #13
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
My co-worker claims he doesn't want the firearm due to it's lack of safeties and his having a 3 year old daughter (the whole reason I purchased it from him), and his only concern is that the firearm is registered under his name since his is the one who purchased it from the FFL.
Texas doesn't have firearms registration and the federal government only looks at 4473, which isn't going to change now no matter what he does.

It sounds like your co-worker wants to back out of the deal after it has already been done and is just making up stories to justify it.
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:30 PM   #14
Chrz
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If you don't mind, what exactly is LEO?
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:33 PM   #15
NavyLT
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LEO - a person born between July 23 and August 22.

Law
Enforcement
Officer

I am also curious as to whether the co-worker has offered to give you your money back? I'll bet he figured out or found someone that would pay more for the gun than you did.
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:33 PM   #16
Chrz
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Quote:
It sounds like your co-worker wants to back out of the deal after it has already been done and is just making up stories to justify it.

Agreed
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:44 PM   #17
carguychris
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Quote:
We are in Texas, and as far as I'm aware, it does not require an FFL to transfer
You are correct- TX does not require FFL transfers, nor bills of sale, nor any form of state gun registration.

FWIW the only important TX state laws that go beyond federal requirements for FTF sales are (a) you may not sell a gun if you have reason to believe that the buyer will use it in a crime, and (b) you may not sell a gun to someone who is visibly intoxicated.
Quote:
Your co-worker is blowing a whole lot of smoke for some reason.
I'm wondering if the coworker is under the common misconception that the gun is "registered" to him, and that the trail will lead back to him if the OP sells it and it's subsequently used in a crime.
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:47 PM   #18
Chrz
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Alrighty,

I'd definitely like to thank everyone for their help and opinions. Next time I have an issue, I'll make sure I come to the knowledgeable people of this forum first.

I'm going to tell him to tell his "Dealer" to stop harassing me, and that he's not registered as the owner. And if this charade continues, I will pursue legal action.

Thanks again,
Greg
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Old June 3, 2010, 01:14 PM   #19
Pahoo
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Quote:
I'm going to tell him to tell his "Dealer" to stop harassing me, and that he's not registered as the owner. And if this charade continues, I will pursue legal action.
Hold up a minute and undestand that I really do not know what your relationship is with this guy but try to find out what his problems is so you can understand and perhaps help him with "His" problem. For now, I don't see that you are that close to legal action. I don't mind helping folks if it doesn't take too much from me but I hate being jerked around. I once had a fella I worked with that wanted to buy back, a gun he sold me. I did but not for the price I paid but it was strickly my call.


Be Safe !!!
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Old June 3, 2010, 01:34 PM   #20
Chrz
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It seems like his biggest problem is either

(A) He regrets making the deal, and wants it back.
I want to keep it, and feel like I paid a good price in his favor for it.

(B) He is afraid that the firearm is registered to his name and doesn't want to get in trouble if I, or someone else, were to use the firearm in an illegal activity.

OR

(C) The dealer is dirty and is harassing him, and he wants it to stop.
(I've told him several times to tell the dealer to contact me or give me the dealers information. Both options are refused by both him and the dealer. Keep in mind, I only have his word to go on, not once has the 'dealer' come forth about this to me.)


I just want them to leave me alone about this, and by telling them I will pursue legal action (which I most likely wouldn't) might convince them/him/the dealer/ whoever is pulling the strings to back off a bit
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Old June 3, 2010, 01:40 PM   #21
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Tell him to go jump in a lake and if it's really serious to tell the dealer to contact you, otherwise you are not giving it to him and you don't want to hear anymore about it.
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Old June 3, 2010, 01:54 PM   #22
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What if the gun wasn't his to sell? What if it belongs to his cousin Larry, who now wants it back and is ready to report it stolen?

You may end up with a gun on file as stolen and get burned some day. You're protected as long as you have the bill of sale, but you'll still lose the gun. I sure wouldn't tell him to go "jump in the lake". Follow up and find out what's going on.
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Old June 3, 2010, 02:25 PM   #23
44 AMP
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One other thing not gun related...

This is a co worker, right? You ought to consider contacting your company management (and HR dept., if you have one) and explaining the situation. ANd do it before he does...

Explain that you made a good faith, legal private transaction, and now the guy is harrasing you about it, at work. No matter how this plays out (and based on your info, it would seem you are in the right), your coworker bothering you about it could constitute a "hostile work environment".

It is not impossible either he, or you could wind up losing your job, if this incident gets blown out of proportion. Consider getting your side on the record with your employer, first. That way, should he try to use your employment as a lever to force the return of the Ruger (unlikely, but not imppossible), having your side on file could make the difference.

Good Luck.
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Old June 3, 2010, 02:49 PM   #24
Chrz
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I've been working for the company for a very long time (he's been with it for only a couple months), and have very good relations with my direct management team, as well as with several district managers throughout the region.

If it comes down to it, they will side with me.
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Old June 3, 2010, 03:31 PM   #25
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I have a solution.

Sell the gun to me for a dollar. Then you can honestly tell your co-worker that you no longer have the gun and to leave you alone. I'll sign a bill of sale and everything.

When he finally gives up the fight, I'll sell you the gun back (at a slight mark-up, of course)

Seriously, offer to sell it back to him for twice what you paid for it. If he refuses, tell him to STFU and leave you alone. If he accepts, use the money to fund a replacement purchase. I seriously doubt there was only one of those (whatever it is) made.

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